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Do animals go to heaven, if not, why not?
- Thread starter Chanya
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PaladinValer
Traditional Orthodox Anglican
- Apr 7, 2004
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Made in His image means free will to decide whether or not we will serve good or evil.
Animals are without sin, but they absolutely do have souls. The life is a soul. People just don't understand this, but I've studied it for years.
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I read the first part of a book by Elijah D. Buckner published in 1903,
"The Church teaches that man and the lower animals have to die, that all souls are immortal, and that all men have souls. This being admitted I am only required to prove that lower animals have souls."
He quotes, Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
"living soul" is the Hebrew, chay and nephesh; "chay nephesh"
Then, he quotes, "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged foul after his kind: and God saw that it was good...And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and the beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so." Genesis 1:21, 24
"living creature" Creature in both of those instances, (does) translates as nephesh, and "living creature" as "chay nephesh".
He says that therefore without putting anymore distinction, or using any more different words than what God did, that those passages could be read as, "And God created great whales, and every living soul that moveth..." Just like it was translated that way with the exact same words for Adam.
He says, that the "Stoics", or the disciples of Socrates, decided that animals, did not have a soul, unlike man... , To advocate what they were doing to them. Although it is still accurate, since man is refered to as the creature.
Please use your concordance if you don't believe me. I did.
Also, breath of life:
Genesis 7:15, "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."
And formed from dust: And Ecclesiastes 3:19-20, "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth the beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
Also Genesis 2:19
"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."
Also..."For as the body without the spirit is dead..." James 2:26
I asked God about this, and He gave me this Scripture one night. I just opened up to this.
"Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God." Psalm 84:3
Because it bothered me so.
Even though the angels weren't created in the image of God, they still deserve respect, and consequently are immortal. (or don't die.... as I'm using the word)
Also, animals die because of our sin.
"How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds;..." Jeremiah 12:4
Also see :Isaiah 24:4-6
I believe in Science. That matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Unless by God. I don't believe, God is going to say, "Whoah! What happended??? DELETE DELETE ." After all He is all knowing.
Not even the Devil in this Scripture... "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10
OFF TOPIC: I know also that God gives everyone a chance, and holds them accountable for the amount of truth that they have.
Romans 8:19-21
But the argument of the below Scripture has a lot of debate.
"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
All I know that it is not talking about us, because in the next verse 22 it begins by contrast, "And not only they, but ourselves also..."
To finish:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13
Here is something I gathered from the internet... some of the gems... since I can't share a link.
The key is this: On this particular issue, where the Bible is silent, you have the right to choose the answer that feels true to you -- that comforts and consoles you. You do not need to accept someone else's view. When God is silent about an issue, that issue is left to each of us to decide, in our own hearts and with our own minds. Don't let someone else add to your grief by trying to make up your mind for you!
It's not simply God's perverse decision to leave thousands of pet owners in the dark. The reason is that the Bible is about human redemption; it's an instruction manual about the choices humans must make. If pets go to heaven, however, it isn't due to anything you or I do to "get" them there -- so perhaps it is no surprise that the Bible contains no "instructions" on the matter.
Silence does not mean a negative answer, however. The Bible is silent on a great many things.
If it is incorrect, there's no penalty. It is not a salvation issue. Nor are you at risk of leading someone else "astray" if you allow them to hold such a belief. If, for example, you are concerned about allowing a child to believe something you think is an "error," ask yourself whether harboring such a belief is more damaging to that child's faith than, say, believing that God does not share or respect that child's love for her pet, or care about her grief.
"But what if she's disappointed?" you might ask. What if, indeed, we choose to believe that our pets are in heaven -- and then, when we get there, we find out that we're wrong? While this may be painful to imagine, it's equally hard to imagine being disappointed in any way, shape or form when we do get to heaven -- whether we find our pets there or not. As Paul writes in 1 Cor. 13:12: "...now I know in part; but then I shall know [fully] even as also I am known." What we do not know and understand now, we will know and understand then; And we will not be disappointed.
And:
Gods View of Animals
I. The creation
a. Genesis 1:22: the blessing for creation is that it should be fruitful and multiply.
i. Verbs for blessing are akin to those for: create, be fruitful, multiply
ii. Blessing is not just for human beings, but for ALL of creation including animals.
iii. Genesis 1:24-25: God saw that the creation of animals was good, and enabled them to reproduce according to their own kind
iv. Principle 1: God blesses animals by
1. Enabling them to reproduce
2. Providing for their feeding through plants
3. Providing for their care through human beings
b. Genesis 1:26: Human beings are to rule over the creation and creatures. This means:
i. Rule is to govern, serve, and take care of as God does. Because humans are created in the image of God, they are to rule as God would rule: not exploitive, but in a provisional and caring way.
ii. Psalm 72:12-14 gives a picture of the benevolent king, here likened unto the characteristics of God, the Father
iii. Humans were given the task of caring for creationin Hebrew, the verb here is to serve, not to work in the sense of abuse or domination. The sense is conveyed in Genesis 2:15 where the LORD puts the man in the garden to dress and keep it.
1. Genesis 2:5
2. Genesis 2:15
iv. Principle 2: We are to care for animals
c. Genesis 2:18-20: Animals were first conceived as companions for human beings, yet no suitable helper could be found among them.
i. Names were given to the animals, signifying that human beings relationship with the animal world
ii. Principle 3: Animals are our companions
d. Genesis 3:1-15: Animals have personality and are accountable for their actions
i. The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals
ii. The serpent was able to communicate
iii. The serpent was punished for its deception Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals
1. Note that curse is the opposite of bless
2. There is an ordering of punishment / blessing among the animal kingdom (Genesis 3:14).
3. God creates created a barrier between the serpent and human beings
4. Principle 4: Animals are accountable to God
Gods View of Animals
(page 2)
e.God makes himself accountable to animals
i.Gods covenant after the flood was with human beings AND animals. Notice the wording in Genesis 9:10-17. The covenant is not with all of creation, with every living thing.
ii.This reflects the understanding of Gods relationship with that which has life blood. There is a different relationship between God and plant life, and God and life by blood.
iii.This difference is reflected in the accounting that is demanded by God (Genesis 9:4-5)
iv. Principle 5: God makes himself accountable to living creatures, which includes animals
II. Gods Design for Human Beings to Care for Animals
a. The Law
i. Principles:
1. Clean or Unclean-ness was ascribed BOTH to animals and to human beings (e.g. Leviticus 7:21)
2. Blood was sacred and not to be eaten, even of animals (e.g. Leviticus 7:26-27)
3. Animals were distinguished into categories (Leviticus 11)
a. Those which could be eaten or not
b. Those which were clean and unclean
ii. Care for animals
1. Not to have sexual relationships with animals (Leviticus 18:23)
2. Not to mate animals of different types (Leviticus 19:19) Notice how this law pertains to two kinds of seeds, or even weaving together two types of clothing.
3. New born animals are to remain with the mother seven days (Leviticus 22:26-28)
4. Animals to be sacrificed are not to be killed the same day with their young (Leviticus 22:28)
5. Firstborn belongs to God, whether man or animal (Number 3:13)
b. The Writings
i. Solomons wisdom extended to teaching about animals (I Kings 4:29-34)
ii. God provides water for animals (2 Kings 3:17ff)
iii. Animals were considered a part of a persons wealth (Ezra 1:6)
iv. God provides for animals (Psalm 147:9)
v. Animals praise God (Psalm 148:8)
vi. The righteous care the needs of their animals (Proverbs 12:10)
vii. Wisdom can be seen in the ways of animals (ants Proverbs 6:6-8)
Gods View of Animals
(page 3)
viii. Man and animals share the same physical fate: both have breath, both die, both come from dust, both return to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
c. The Prophets
i. God includes animals in prophecies to nations (e.g. Isaiah 30:6ff, Ezekiel 29, Joel 2, Amos 5:22, etc.)
ii. Animals are said to praise and honor God (e.g. Isaiah 43:20)
III. The Future of all things
a. The new heaven and the new earth
i. Isaiah 11:1-9: the wolf will live with the lamb
ii. Isaiah 66
b. The renewal of all things
i. Acts 3:21 the time when God will restore everything
c. Pauls view of animals and creation
i. Differing kinds of flesh I Corinthians 15:38-41
ii. All of creation is to be liberated from decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8:21).
1. We have the first-fruits of this resurrection to the new order through the Spirit. Implication of first-fruits is that there is more to come. A possibility is that in the new created order, our relationship with animals will be restored to what it was intended.
2. The liberation of creation at the end of time would include animals as well as all other forms of creation: getting back to what it was supposed to be.
"The Church teaches that man and the lower animals have to die, that all souls are immortal, and that all men have souls. This being admitted I am only required to prove that lower animals have souls."
He quotes, Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
"living soul" is the Hebrew, chay and nephesh; "chay nephesh"
Then, he quotes, "And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged foul after his kind: and God saw that it was good...And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and the beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so." Genesis 1:21, 24
"living creature" Creature in both of those instances, (does) translates as nephesh, and "living creature" as "chay nephesh".
He says that therefore without putting anymore distinction, or using any more different words than what God did, that those passages could be read as, "And God created great whales, and every living soul that moveth..." Just like it was translated that way with the exact same words for Adam.
He says, that the "Stoics", or the disciples of Socrates, decided that animals, did not have a soul, unlike man... , To advocate what they were doing to them. Although it is still accurate, since man is refered to as the creature.
Please use your concordance if you don't believe me. I did.
Also, breath of life:
Genesis 7:15, "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."
And formed from dust: And Ecclesiastes 3:19-20, "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth the beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."
Also Genesis 2:19
"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof."
Also..."For as the body without the spirit is dead..." James 2:26
I asked God about this, and He gave me this Scripture one night. I just opened up to this.
"Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O LORD of hosts, my King, and my God." Psalm 84:3
Because it bothered me so.
Even though the angels weren't created in the image of God, they still deserve respect, and consequently are immortal. (or don't die.... as I'm using the word)
Also, animals die because of our sin.
"How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the beasts are consumed, and the birds;..." Jeremiah 12:4
Also see :Isaiah 24:4-6
I believe in Science. That matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Unless by God. I don't believe, God is going to say, "Whoah! What happended??? DELETE DELETE ." After all He is all knowing.
Not even the Devil in this Scripture... "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 20:10
OFF TOPIC: I know also that God gives everyone a chance, and holds them accountable for the amount of truth that they have.
Romans 8:19-21
But the argument of the below Scripture has a lot of debate.
"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."
All I know that it is not talking about us, because in the next verse 22 it begins by contrast, "And not only they, but ourselves also..."
To finish:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13
Here is something I gathered from the internet... some of the gems... since I can't share a link.
The key is this: On this particular issue, where the Bible is silent, you have the right to choose the answer that feels true to you -- that comforts and consoles you. You do not need to accept someone else's view. When God is silent about an issue, that issue is left to each of us to decide, in our own hearts and with our own minds. Don't let someone else add to your grief by trying to make up your mind for you!
It's not simply God's perverse decision to leave thousands of pet owners in the dark. The reason is that the Bible is about human redemption; it's an instruction manual about the choices humans must make. If pets go to heaven, however, it isn't due to anything you or I do to "get" them there -- so perhaps it is no surprise that the Bible contains no "instructions" on the matter.
Silence does not mean a negative answer, however. The Bible is silent on a great many things.
If it is incorrect, there's no penalty. It is not a salvation issue. Nor are you at risk of leading someone else "astray" if you allow them to hold such a belief. If, for example, you are concerned about allowing a child to believe something you think is an "error," ask yourself whether harboring such a belief is more damaging to that child's faith than, say, believing that God does not share or respect that child's love for her pet, or care about her grief.
"But what if she's disappointed?" you might ask. What if, indeed, we choose to believe that our pets are in heaven -- and then, when we get there, we find out that we're wrong? While this may be painful to imagine, it's equally hard to imagine being disappointed in any way, shape or form when we do get to heaven -- whether we find our pets there or not. As Paul writes in 1 Cor. 13:12: "...now I know in part; but then I shall know [fully] even as also I am known." What we do not know and understand now, we will know and understand then; And we will not be disappointed.
And:
Gods View of Animals
I. The creation
a. Genesis 1:22: the blessing for creation is that it should be fruitful and multiply.
i. Verbs for blessing are akin to those for: create, be fruitful, multiply
ii. Blessing is not just for human beings, but for ALL of creation including animals.
iii. Genesis 1:24-25: God saw that the creation of animals was good, and enabled them to reproduce according to their own kind
iv. Principle 1: God blesses animals by
1. Enabling them to reproduce
2. Providing for their feeding through plants
3. Providing for their care through human beings
b. Genesis 1:26: Human beings are to rule over the creation and creatures. This means:
i. Rule is to govern, serve, and take care of as God does. Because humans are created in the image of God, they are to rule as God would rule: not exploitive, but in a provisional and caring way.
ii. Psalm 72:12-14 gives a picture of the benevolent king, here likened unto the characteristics of God, the Father
iii. Humans were given the task of caring for creationin Hebrew, the verb here is to serve, not to work in the sense of abuse or domination. The sense is conveyed in Genesis 2:15 where the LORD puts the man in the garden to dress and keep it.
1. Genesis 2:5
2. Genesis 2:15
iv. Principle 2: We are to care for animals
c. Genesis 2:18-20: Animals were first conceived as companions for human beings, yet no suitable helper could be found among them.
i. Names were given to the animals, signifying that human beings relationship with the animal world
ii. Principle 3: Animals are our companions
d. Genesis 3:1-15: Animals have personality and are accountable for their actions
i. The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals
ii. The serpent was able to communicate
iii. The serpent was punished for its deception Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals
1. Note that curse is the opposite of bless
2. There is an ordering of punishment / blessing among the animal kingdom (Genesis 3:14).
3. God creates created a barrier between the serpent and human beings
4. Principle 4: Animals are accountable to God
Gods View of Animals
(page 2)
e.God makes himself accountable to animals
i.Gods covenant after the flood was with human beings AND animals. Notice the wording in Genesis 9:10-17. The covenant is not with all of creation, with every living thing.
ii.This reflects the understanding of Gods relationship with that which has life blood. There is a different relationship between God and plant life, and God and life by blood.
iii.This difference is reflected in the accounting that is demanded by God (Genesis 9:4-5)
iv. Principle 5: God makes himself accountable to living creatures, which includes animals
II. Gods Design for Human Beings to Care for Animals
a. The Law
i. Principles:
1. Clean or Unclean-ness was ascribed BOTH to animals and to human beings (e.g. Leviticus 7:21)
2. Blood was sacred and not to be eaten, even of animals (e.g. Leviticus 7:26-27)
3. Animals were distinguished into categories (Leviticus 11)
a. Those which could be eaten or not
b. Those which were clean and unclean
ii. Care for animals
1. Not to have sexual relationships with animals (Leviticus 18:23)
2. Not to mate animals of different types (Leviticus 19:19) Notice how this law pertains to two kinds of seeds, or even weaving together two types of clothing.
3. New born animals are to remain with the mother seven days (Leviticus 22:26-28)
4. Animals to be sacrificed are not to be killed the same day with their young (Leviticus 22:28)
5. Firstborn belongs to God, whether man or animal (Number 3:13)
b. The Writings
i. Solomons wisdom extended to teaching about animals (I Kings 4:29-34)
ii. God provides water for animals (2 Kings 3:17ff)
iii. Animals were considered a part of a persons wealth (Ezra 1:6)
iv. God provides for animals (Psalm 147:9)
v. Animals praise God (Psalm 148:8)
vi. The righteous care the needs of their animals (Proverbs 12:10)
vii. Wisdom can be seen in the ways of animals (ants Proverbs 6:6-8)
Gods View of Animals
(page 3)
viii. Man and animals share the same physical fate: both have breath, both die, both come from dust, both return to dust (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21)
c. The Prophets
i. God includes animals in prophecies to nations (e.g. Isaiah 30:6ff, Ezekiel 29, Joel 2, Amos 5:22, etc.)
ii. Animals are said to praise and honor God (e.g. Isaiah 43:20)
III. The Future of all things
a. The new heaven and the new earth
i. Isaiah 11:1-9: the wolf will live with the lamb
ii. Isaiah 66
b. The renewal of all things
i. Acts 3:21 the time when God will restore everything
c. Pauls view of animals and creation
i. Differing kinds of flesh I Corinthians 15:38-41
ii. All of creation is to be liberated from decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8:21).
1. We have the first-fruits of this resurrection to the new order through the Spirit. Implication of first-fruits is that there is more to come. A possibility is that in the new created order, our relationship with animals will be restored to what it was intended.
2. The liberation of creation at the end of time would include animals as well as all other forms of creation: getting back to what it was supposed to be.
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MKJ
Contributor
There is a difference between Heaven where our souls are enjoying the beatific vision before the general resurrection, and after when all of creation, including material creation, is remade. Some of the posts seem to be confusing the two.
The soul is the form of the body, it is the immaterial pattern that makes one a man or a dog or a bit of dust.
Humans however are rational, and so have a rational, immortal soul. What that means is that having a connection with what is divine and immutable, it has some sort of existance even apart from the body. Even before the Incarnation, the soul would have had a kind of pale existance after the death of the body, though whether it would have seemed much like a person I don't know.
Because of the Incarnation though our souls remain "us" in a real way while we await the return of our bodies.
Animals are different. Their souls are completely tied to the material aspect of their bodies. When the body ceases to be a dog or horse, the soul also dissolves. It can have no existence in an individual sense apart from the body.
But I think that in the new Earth, there is every reason to think there will be animals. Whether these are the same ones that existed on our present Earth I am really not sure.
The soul is the form of the body, it is the immaterial pattern that makes one a man or a dog or a bit of dust.
Humans however are rational, and so have a rational, immortal soul. What that means is that having a connection with what is divine and immutable, it has some sort of existance even apart from the body. Even before the Incarnation, the soul would have had a kind of pale existance after the death of the body, though whether it would have seemed much like a person I don't know.
Because of the Incarnation though our souls remain "us" in a real way while we await the return of our bodies.
Animals are different. Their souls are completely tied to the material aspect of their bodies. When the body ceases to be a dog or horse, the soul also dissolves. It can have no existence in an individual sense apart from the body.
But I think that in the new Earth, there is every reason to think there will be animals. Whether these are the same ones that existed on our present Earth I am really not sure.
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With all due respect sir...
What proof have you of this? Or what reasoning lead you to this conclusion? Do you have some insight into the Spiritual realm the rest of us have not? Again with all due respect...
You seem to think that God values intelligence.
Well, then do you believe that babies go to Heaven? What about handicapped people?
I don't think it is anything man can do or posses to get him into Heaven. You think God lets man into Heaven, because man is smart and chooses good is that what you are saying?
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:26-29
It might come to a surprise to you, that up to a certain point... primate and ape infants exhibit a more awareness of their environment than our own children.
So let me get this straight... logically... of all the creatures that posses souls: men, angels, and animals... when beast's die... there soul stops existing... but men and angels don't because men and angels are smarter?
How is there soul different? I've studied the Hebrew. The word used for angel's spirits... and animal spirits are the same."Ruwach" It is even used for men's spirit. Although men, alone has the unique word "neshamamah", which means "divinely inspired" which is sometimes used.
Although this word was never used for the angels, who are clearly immortal.
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" Psalm 104:4
Why do we single out this one group? I think man has a hard enough time extending care to his own kind forget animals.
It doesn't seem logical and there is absolutely no Biblical evidence to suggest this.
If this was all that there was for them, (I mean those chickens who live in a 2' 2' box all of there lives... being pumped up with hormones, and then killed in two weeks) It seems that our responsibility to them would be greater not lesser. That we should assure them happiness for the little time that they have. </3
Besides, does this make any sense, "Behold, the delicious piece of veal, made solely to consume upon our lusts, which taketh away the sins of the world?" I'm pretty sure God values animal life, else He wouldn't make so many statements about them.
I don't feel good about having to take life to live. It is acceptable... but I wouldn't want to live with myself if those animals never got justice... and were in torment their entire life... and never lived again. I don't believe God wants us to either. I think He wants us to see what sin does.
"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16-17
Besides animals were designed as our companions originally.
"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." Genesis 2:18-20
"A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." Proverbs 12:10
I see no logical or Scriptural reason to think animal's spirits just cease to exist after their death. Unless God would just wipe them out. But why would He do that... if someone as wicked as the Devil and AntiChrist are doomed to be tormented forever.
Again, I ask... why make this distinction? Why do we believe animals are here just temporary? What lead us to that conclusion?
A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. Proverbs 12:10
Respectfully,
Revelation 20:10
Ps.
Also... how much studying have you done on the Spirit, and soul. You know that they are two separate entities right?
Spirit and soul are both immaterial. When God breathed His Spirit into man, his spirit, combined with his body, and made a third unique part the soul. The soul, is who you are. I've done a lot of study. I don't consider the soul... to be just man's reasoning... nor our are the men I've read, or have learned from believe it is just intellect. I don't know everything... but I've done a lot of study sir... because it is desirous for me to know these things. Besides the Bible made no distinction in that area... "nephesh" for both. As a matter of fact out of the first 13 times it is used... "nephesh" is used for animals 10 of those times. However, man's Spirit differs from that of angels and animals. Man was created in the image of God. But the same word is used for the spirit of angels and animals. Neither were divinely inspired. Yet, angels clearly are immortal. I don't buy intellect for the reason... I just don't see God that way. I guess it doesn't matter, we can think about it all we like but it wont effect what God is going to do.
Animals also praise the LORD... "Praise ye the LORD...Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl." Psalm 148:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13
Humans aren't in the sea, or under the earth.
And besides God holds animals accountable. Such as the snake? Or that if an animal kills man? If they have no knowledge of God, why would He hold them accountable?
Besides... sometimes animals know more than humans. "Consider the ant"? I don't think you have really been around them. People swear that they hear nature praising God. And I've always heard that horses could sense evil... and one day I talked to a minister... who went to visit someone who messed with the occult... and well the horses next door started to go crazy.
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
I personally don't think intellect effects where we will spend eternity... or if we have a soul or not.
Also with all of the studying I've done, I don't think you are going to be able to make a Scriptural distinction between the soul of beasts and angels... Nor any doctrine that I'll by into.
I love my animals. But it doesn't matter what I think. If I get to Heaven and God Almighty says animals weren't fit to enter, then I'll believe Him. But I wont believe anyone else on it... unless they can show me where God said it. Because I asked God.. for reproval if I was wrong. I came to this neutral... And all I got from Him was encouragement.
What proof have you of this? Or what reasoning lead you to this conclusion? Do you have some insight into the Spiritual realm the rest of us have not? Again with all due respect...
You seem to think that God values intelligence.
Well, then do you believe that babies go to Heaven? What about handicapped people?
I don't think it is anything man can do or posses to get him into Heaven. You think God lets man into Heaven, because man is smart and chooses good is that what you are saying?
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence." I Corinthians 1:26-29
It might come to a surprise to you, that up to a certain point... primate and ape infants exhibit a more awareness of their environment than our own children.
So let me get this straight... logically... of all the creatures that posses souls: men, angels, and animals... when beast's die... there soul stops existing... but men and angels don't because men and angels are smarter?
How is there soul different? I've studied the Hebrew. The word used for angel's spirits... and animal spirits are the same."Ruwach" It is even used for men's spirit. Although men, alone has the unique word "neshamamah", which means "divinely inspired" which is sometimes used.
Although this word was never used for the angels, who are clearly immortal.
"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" Psalm 104:4
Why do we single out this one group? I think man has a hard enough time extending care to his own kind forget animals.
It doesn't seem logical and there is absolutely no Biblical evidence to suggest this.
If this was all that there was for them, (I mean those chickens who live in a 2' 2' box all of there lives... being pumped up with hormones, and then killed in two weeks) It seems that our responsibility to them would be greater not lesser. That we should assure them happiness for the little time that they have. </3
Besides, does this make any sense, "Behold, the delicious piece of veal, made solely to consume upon our lusts, which taketh away the sins of the world?" I'm pretty sure God values animal life, else He wouldn't make so many statements about them.
I don't feel good about having to take life to live. It is acceptable... but I wouldn't want to live with myself if those animals never got justice... and were in torment their entire life... and never lived again. I don't believe God wants us to either. I think He wants us to see what sin does.
"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:16-17
Besides animals were designed as our companions originally.
"And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him." Genesis 2:18-20
"A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." Proverbs 12:10
I see no logical or Scriptural reason to think animal's spirits just cease to exist after their death. Unless God would just wipe them out. But why would He do that... if someone as wicked as the Devil and AntiChrist are doomed to be tormented forever.
Again, I ask... why make this distinction? Why do we believe animals are here just temporary? What lead us to that conclusion?
A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. Proverbs 12:10
Respectfully,
Revelation 20:10
Ps.
Also... how much studying have you done on the Spirit, and soul. You know that they are two separate entities right?
Spirit and soul are both immaterial. When God breathed His Spirit into man, his spirit, combined with his body, and made a third unique part the soul. The soul, is who you are. I've done a lot of study. I don't consider the soul... to be just man's reasoning... nor our are the men I've read, or have learned from believe it is just intellect. I don't know everything... but I've done a lot of study sir... because it is desirous for me to know these things. Besides the Bible made no distinction in that area... "nephesh" for both. As a matter of fact out of the first 13 times it is used... "nephesh" is used for animals 10 of those times. However, man's Spirit differs from that of angels and animals. Man was created in the image of God. But the same word is used for the spirit of angels and animals. Neither were divinely inspired. Yet, angels clearly are immortal. I don't buy intellect for the reason... I just don't see God that way. I guess it doesn't matter, we can think about it all we like but it wont effect what God is going to do.
Animals also praise the LORD... "Praise ye the LORD...Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl." Psalm 148:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13
Humans aren't in the sea, or under the earth.
And besides God holds animals accountable. Such as the snake? Or that if an animal kills man? If they have no knowledge of God, why would He hold them accountable?
Besides... sometimes animals know more than humans. "Consider the ant"? I don't think you have really been around them. People swear that they hear nature praising God. And I've always heard that horses could sense evil... and one day I talked to a minister... who went to visit someone who messed with the occult... and well the horses next door started to go crazy.
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
I personally don't think intellect effects where we will spend eternity... or if we have a soul or not.
Also with all of the studying I've done, I don't think you are going to be able to make a Scriptural distinction between the soul of beasts and angels... Nor any doctrine that I'll by into.
I love my animals. But it doesn't matter what I think. If I get to Heaven and God Almighty says animals weren't fit to enter, then I'll believe Him. But I wont believe anyone else on it... unless they can show me where God said it. Because I asked God.. for reproval if I was wrong. I came to this neutral... And all I got from Him was encouragement.
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I'm not sure if anyone already posted it but Genisis 9:4 God says He will demand an accounting from every animal and from every man...........this speaks volumes, since we know as humans we will be judged by God for our actions after we die, it would appear that animals too have life after death where they to will be judged......where they go after judgement I don't know but I would imagine if we go to heaven for believing in the sacrifice of Gods Son Jesus, then the animals we loved would go to, because God loves to give us good things that our heart desires
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Yes. I agree. (Except we would like to have some people in Heaven with us... and obviously not everyone human will be there either.) And remember In the OT when God was on the mountain... the Israelites nor their cattle were to touch the mountain... or else they would be put to death, both man and beast?
But also in the NT, Matthew 21:19, "And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away."
He also held trees accountable?
Why would He hold them accountable if they could not help it? Was He just wasting His breath?
I may not be correct. But I think all things are alive in a sense. I mean... it is one of those things you believe... but can't prove... and you wouldn't hold to it very firmly if given reason.
But you know like the Ten Commandments? I think all of God's laws... like the laws of physics are like that.
Like in Proverbs 8:29, "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:"
He commanded the sea.
Or Luke 18:40 "And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."
There are more Scriptures like this. Although I can't cite them all.
I'm probably biased in my world view. But spending much time alone with nature... I swear even the trees praise the LORD. Psalm 148, says the Earth praises the LORD. There's other Scriptures that talk about nature too.
"The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate:
therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left." Isaiah 24:4-6
Sin is disobedience to God. If something disobeys God... then it is fallen. I do believe animals can sin then. But do they quite realize what they are doing? I mean children can sin.
I know God is judge. He curses plants and animals too. But does He send them to Hell? But just because they are judged doesn't mean they are sent to Hell. Because clearly, I believe they are immortal. Like the snake's punishment was eternal. Even in the New Earth he's still going to be eating dust.
(I was just thinking... maybe not in the New Earth... but right now if I came across it... I would want to stomp that particular snake's head into the ground. hahahahaha )
But I don't know....
Did you know that the terms clean and unclean apply to both man and beast in the old testament.
But in the New Testament, in Acts chapter 10
"And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."
Weren't all animals called clean? And this might be a stretch... but after Jesus died?
I know that part of it at least, is our sin nature might be parted to them as well.
"How long shall the land mourn, and the herbs of every field wither, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein? the
beasts are consumed, and the birds;..." Jeremiah 12:4
But we can't exclude them.
Whatever it is up to God... and we know His nature... and what He did for us.
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts." Ecclesiastes 3:18
Anyways we wont be disappointed when we get there.
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MKJ
Contributor
With all due respect sir...
Originally Posted by MKJ
Intelligence and rationality - being moral beings - are not the same as intelligence, or babies who haven't yet fulfilled their potential. Our limits with regard to what is natural to the human - say, a slow mind - are the result of the Fall. Animals are not moral rational beings by nature - even the perfect dog does not have these qualities.
What gets us to Heaven is indeed something we are given - our nature. That doesn't mean it doesn't properly belong to us though, it means that it doesn't originate with us.
You seem to come to a lot of conclusions based on some pretty vague reasoning and disconnected scriptural passages yourself. I do have another source in fact - the Tradition of the Church. While it has not always used the same theological language, what Christian theologians through the ages have said is similar to what I have said above.
And saying that animals can sin is pretty far out. Sinning requires understanding, in some sense, good and evil.
Originally Posted by MKJ
.
Animals are different. Their souls are completely tied to the material aspect of their bodies. When the body ceases to be a dog or horse, the soul also dissolves. It can have no existence in an individual sense apart from the body.
Animals are different. Their souls are completely tied to the material aspect of their bodies. When the body ceases to be a dog or horse, the soul also dissolves. It can have no existence in an individual sense apart from the body.
What proof have you of this? Or what reasoning lead you to this conclusion? Do you have some insight into the Spiritual realm the rest of us have not? Again with all due respect...
You seem to think that God values intelligence.
Well, then do you believe that babies go to Heaven? What about handicapped people?
I don't think it is anything man can do or posses to get him into Heaven. You think God lets man into Heaven, because man is smart and chooses good is that what you are saying?
Intelligence and rationality - being moral beings - are not the same as intelligence, or babies who haven't yet fulfilled their potential. Our limits with regard to what is natural to the human - say, a slow mind - are the result of the Fall. Animals are not moral rational beings by nature - even the perfect dog does not have these qualities.
What gets us to Heaven is indeed something we are given - our nature. That doesn't mean it doesn't properly belong to us though, it means that it doesn't originate with us.
You seem to come to a lot of conclusions based on some pretty vague reasoning and disconnected scriptural passages yourself. I do have another source in fact - the Tradition of the Church. While it has not always used the same theological language, what Christian theologians through the ages have said is similar to what I have said above.
And saying that animals can sin is pretty far out. Sinning requires understanding, in some sense, good and evil.
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First: no one is going to heaven.
Second: God's plan is for the salvation of mankind, not animals.
Third: People don't have "souls" either.
Fourth: Your post is one big wrong assumption after another.
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itisdeliciouscake
Deus est regit qui omnia
How exactly does one "go to heaven"?
Where does it talk about going to heaven in the Bible?
Where does it talk about going to heaven in the Bible?
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That is my point exactly! Then you agree with me?! But I haven't drawn any conclusions you have. Did I not say, where the Bible is silent on a matter each of us has a right to choose?
Of, course I believe what I believe, and I think it's pretty clear what I believe.
I just challenged you.
But I'm saying no one can say for certain. It's up to each of us to believe what we believe. You can't say for sure that animals don't go to Heaven... and I can't say for sure that they do.
The Church is a decent source to cite.
However, not condescendingly ... But I don't believe we have the same Church History. (with regards towards this topic, and with all do respect
)Also... The Jehovah's Witness believe Jesus Christ isn't God, but Michael the Archangel...because their Watchtower Organization told them. ...Some Churches at one point decided woman don't have souls, because God didn't breathe the breath of life into them.
Sorry, that doesn't impress so much.
As for animals sinning... I put an *if* on that. I know God requires certain things of them. If they understood this... and disobeyed God... would they not be sinners?
OFF TOPIC: I'm not so sure man has a complete understanding of good and evil, especially when he sins. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Genesis 3:7
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12
In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Judges 17:6
I just know if you disobey God, and you KNOW THAT YOU ARE DISOBEYING GOD, then you are doing wrong.
This is just not what I believe necessarilly, just my line of thought... again I am drawing no conclusions.
ON TOPIC: My point is: NO ONE knows. I just put up some reasons for this side of the argument.
But you presented your side as verified facts. Nothing is verified.
This wasn't supposed to be an argument.
"You seem to come to a lot of conclusions based on some pretty vague reasoning and disconnected scriptural passages yourself."
So to be fair no one knows. I said... "each has a right to choose" I gave some Scriptures to show that it might be possible. I stated what I believe.
If you got this interpretation... then I'm sorry.
I very well COULD BE WRONG.
In summary "Emphasis on NO ONE KNOWS. And secondary to that... there is some reason to believe positively that animals go to Heaven. And no one on this earth knows the true nature of spirits.
I'm not going to argue... and I've said all I'll say.
If you insist that you are right, and truly know... I wont argue with you.
I don't think it effects anything at all whatever either of us think. I don't think we'll be able to win each other over to our views either.
How about we let God settle this okay? I know I'm going to Heaven. I know we'll have each other there. I truly believe God is an all just God. And when I see Him face to face... I'll accept whatever decision He makes.
I was just here for hope...
Anyways... I've made my point. There's no reason for me to continue here... best regards.
-Revelation 20:10
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