• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

DNA & Math

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,051
394
✟25,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If anyone is interested in why evolution is false, this series describes the mathematical argument the best for me. He explains it in terms of computer programming, and I have done that for a while, so I get the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL536FAE9D03D88AA5

At the core of the issue is that DNA is a set of data which can be represented in a computer. Instead of binary, it is a quaternary language, (4 base pairs).

You can then simulate DNA mutations in a computer. You can also simulate natural selection in computer environments. These are called "genetic algorithms". I used to study them while at college. It simulates evolution because evolution is the concept of random mutation plus natural selection.

Now in the world of computer programming, it has long been understood that basically a genetic algorithms do not work in the way they are supposed to. They are great for things involving a limited sequence of mutations which might randomly arise in 1 instance, thus allowing for natural selection to occur, but they are terrible for longer sequences. Yet, the average gene size is 10 to 15 kb. Furthermore, a gene to develop a protein, for example, must be coded correctly the first time because of the neutral theory of molecular evolution. Proteins that are only partially coded are malfunctioning proteins and either achieve a neutral benefit, or a detriment to the creature. Therefore, natural selection would never operate on such mutations, and those mutations would be lost. Also, natural selection may operate against a beneficial mutation, because if that mutation is only partially coded it could be a detriment as it achieves a negative outcome.

Now, let's say our mutation did pop out Mozart's Symphony on the first go. It would be unlikely to the point, we would not expect that to ever happen again. And when this type of quantification is done, as that video elaborates, you would never expect it to produce an outcome of evolution, in fact it working this way disproves evolution. Evolution is a process. What I have described where Mozart's Symphony arises randomly all in one go, is not a process but an event we never expect to be repeated on a statistical level. It arises to the level of statistically disproving evolution.

Even worse than this, is the idea of co-functioning proteins, where a series of structures must exist simultaneously in order to achieve the outcome where by natural selection would take hold. Imagine a land animal becoming a water breather, as they say happened with cows. This involves co-functioning protein sequences arising simultaneously, as if all of Mozart's Compositions randomly arose at the same time to produce a benefit.

David Berlinski estimated some 50,000 changes to that animal for this to take place, and he stopped counting there. Even if 5 such changes had to be co-functioning, we arrive at a statistical anomalous event, where by we might not expect it to occur ever in the lifetime of the universe depending on the degree of improbability. At which point we have abandoned "evolutionary process" and substituted "creation miracles over time". And it being miraculous is why you cannot evolve anything seriously on a computer simulation, or that you can't do it in a laboratory either.

But if we are composing the entire works of Mozart in one instance randomly as a miracle... why can we assert random? See, randomness is our enemy at this point. Random favors the notion that it is a process, but for evolution to be true, you have to abandon that it was a process. At which point if it is not a process but an impossible event, random is not in our favor. The impossible events become possible very easily, if it were not random.

Yet, if we have abanonned random and process due to logical inquiry, why must it be "over great lengths of time" and a "series of progression?" Both of these favored a random process, but logic dictates it was not an evolutionary process and probably not random.

At which point there is no preference for near instantaneous creation vs. creation over time. 1 year vs. 1 billion years concerning an engineered process only matters in terms of the ability of the engineer to build something on a timetable that they can keep.
 
Last edited:

PeterDona

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2010
743
181
Denmark
✟393,615.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Furthermore, a gene to develop a protein, for example, must be coded correctly the first time because of the neutral theory of molecular evolution. Proteins that are only partially coded are malfunctioning proteins and either achieve a neutral benefit, or a detriment to the creature. Therefore, natural selection would never operate on such mutations, and those mutations would be lost. Also, natural selection may operate against a beneficial mutation, because if that mutation is only partially coded it could be a detriment as it achieves a negative outcome.
That is a pretty strong argument. I will remember it.

Problem is, many people forget about molecular interactions, and focus solely on DNA sequences. The evolutionistic approach to molecular biology has a reductionistic way of looking at things.

However, molecular interactions on the level of protein-protein interaction is still an area not well understood. And it cannot be understood by only calculations, but you have to go in the lab and get your hands dirty. I guess people really hope to find a way to skip past this enormous obstacle to understanding the cell.
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,005
54
the Hague NL
✟84,932.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I just watched some of these videos and agree that they present pretty strong arguments against evolution. So my question to you, Razare, is why not post stuff from these videos "out there" to get the atheists' reactions? You're preaching to the choir here.
What's the use of posting it "out there"?
You know how "they" will react, don't you?
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0

Armoured

So is America great again yet?
Site Supporter
Aug 31, 2013
34,362
14,061
✟257,467.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
If anyone is interested in why evolution is false, this series describes the mathematical argument the best for me. He explains it in terms of computer programming, and I have done that for a while, so I get the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL536FAE9D03D88AA5

At the core of the issue is that DNA is a set of data which can be represented in a computer. Instead of binary, it is a quaternary language, (4 base pairs).

You can then simulate DNA mutations in a computer. You can also simulate natural selection in computer environments. These are called "genetic algorithms". I used to study them while at college. It simulates evolution because evolution is the concept of random mutation plus natural selection.

Now in the world of computer programming, it has long been understood that basically a genetic algorithms do not work in the way they are supposed to. They are great for things involving a limited sequence of mutations which might randomly arise in 1 instance, thus allowing for natural selection to occur, but they are terrible for longer sequences. Yet, the average gene size is 10 to 15 kb. Furthermore, a gene to develop a protein, for example, must be coded correctly the first time because of the neutral theory of molecular evolution. Proteins that are only partially coded are malfunctioning proteins and either achieve a neutral benefit, or a detriment to the creature. Therefore, natural selection would never operate on such mutations, and those mutations would be lost. Also, natural selection may operate against a beneficial mutation, because if that mutation is only partially coded it could be a detriment as it achieves a negative outcome.

Now, let's say our mutation did pop out Mozart's Symphony on the first go. It would be unlikely to the point, we would not expect that to ever happen again. And when this type of quantification is done, as that video elaborates, you would never expect it to produce an outcome of evolution, in fact it working this way disproves evolution. Evolution is a process. What I have described where Mozart's Symphony arises randomly all in one go, is not a process but an event we never expect to be repeated on a statistical level. It arises to the level of statistically disproving evolution.

Even worse than this, is the idea of co-functioning proteins, where a series of structures must exist simultaneously in order to achieve the outcome where by natural selection would take hold. Imagine a land animal becoming a water breather, as they say happened with cows. This involves co-functioning protein sequences arising simultaneously, as if all of Mozart's Compositions randomly arose at the same time to produce a benefit.

David Berlinski estimated some 50,000 changes to that animal for this to take place, and he stopped counting there. Even if 5 such changes had to be co-functioning, we arrive at a statistical anomalous event, where by we might not expect it to occur ever in the lifetime of the universe depending on the degree of improbability. At which point we have abandoned "evolutionary process" and substituted "creation miracles over time". And it being miraculous is why you cannot evolve anything seriously on a computer simulation, or that you can't do it in a laboratory either.

But if we are composing the entire works of Mozart in one instance randomly as a miracle... why can we assert random? See, randomness is our enemy at this point. Random favors the notion that it is a process, but for evolution to be true, you have to abandon that it was a process. At which point if it is not a process but an impossible event, random is not in our favor. The impossible events become possible very easily, if it were not random.

Yet, if we have abanonned random and process due to logical inquiry, why must it be "over great lengths of time" and a "series of progression?" Both of these favored a random process, but logic dictates it was not an evolutionary process and probably not random.

At which point there is no preference for near instantaneous creation vs. creation over time. 1 year vs. 1 billion years concerning an engineered process only matters in terms of the ability of the engineer to build something on a timetable that they can keep.
Assuming this is correct, so what? Even if you legitimately disprove evolutionary theory, that still doesn't prove creationism.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If anyone is interested in why evolution is false, this series describes the mathematical argument the best for me. He explains it in terms of computer programming, and I have done that for a while, so I get the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL536FAE9D03D88AA5

At the core of the issue is that DNA is a set of data which can be represented in a computer. Instead of binary, it is a quaternary language, (4 base pairs).

You can then simulate DNA mutations in a computer. You can also simulate natural selection in computer environments. These are called "genetic algorithms". I used to study them while at college. It simulates evolution because evolution is the concept of random mutation plus natural selection.

Now in the world of computer programming, it has long been understood that basically a genetic algorithms do not work in the way they are supposed to. They are great for things involving a limited sequence of mutations which might randomly arise in 1 instance, thus allowing for natural selection to occur, but they are terrible for longer sequences. Yet, the average gene size is 10 to 15 kb. Furthermore, a gene to develop a protein, for example, must be coded correctly the first time because of the neutral theory of molecular evolution. Proteins that are only partially coded are malfunctioning proteins and either achieve a neutral benefit, or a detriment to the creature. Therefore, natural selection would never operate on such mutations, and those mutations would be lost. Also, natural selection may operate against a beneficial mutation, because if that mutation is only partially coded it could be a detriment as it achieves a negative outcome.

Now, let's say our mutation did pop out Mozart's Symphony on the first go. It would be unlikely to the point, we would not expect that to ever happen again. And when this type of quantification is done, as that video elaborates, you would never expect it to produce an outcome of evolution, in fact it working this way disproves evolution. Evolution is a process. What I have described where Mozart's Symphony arises randomly all in one go, is not a process but an event we never expect to be repeated on a statistical level. It arises to the level of statistically disproving evolution.

Even worse than this, is the idea of co-functioning proteins, where a series of structures must exist simultaneously in order to achieve the outcome where by natural selection would take hold. Imagine a land animal becoming a water breather, as they say happened with cows. This involves co-functioning protein sequences arising simultaneously, as if all of Mozart's Compositions randomly arose at the same time to produce a benefit.

David Berlinski estimated some 50,000 changes to that animal for this to take place, and he stopped counting there. Even if 5 such changes had to be co-functioning, we arrive at a statistical anomalous event, where by we might not expect it to occur ever in the lifetime of the universe depending on the degree of improbability. At which point we have abandoned "evolutionary process" and substituted "creation miracles over time". And it being miraculous is why you cannot evolve anything seriously on a computer simulation, or that you can't do it in a laboratory either.

But if we are composing the entire works of Mozart in one instance randomly as a miracle... why can we assert random? See, randomness is our enemy at this point. Random favors the notion that it is a process, but for evolution to be true, you have to abandon that it was a process. At which point if it is not a process but an impossible event, random is not in our favor. The impossible events become possible very easily, if it were not random.

Yet, if we have abanonned random and process due to logical inquiry, why must it be "over great lengths of time" and a "series of progression?" Both of these favored a random process, but logic dictates it was not an evolutionary process and probably not random.

At which point there is no preference for near instantaneous creation vs. creation over time. 1 year vs. 1 billion years concerning an engineered process only matters in terms of the ability of the engineer to build something on a timetable that they can keep.

There is the possibility that God already knows the statistics and
caused it to happen anyway in spite of the odds against it.
 
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,051
394
✟25,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I just watched some of these videos and agree that they present pretty strong arguments against evolution. So my question to you, Razare, is why not post stuff from these videos "out there" to get the atheists' reactions? You're preaching to the choir here.

I have in the past on what was a non-Christian forum.

I actually did a long thread where I "proved God"... not that you really can prove God, but I sort of did. I did not take it to the level of addressing Christian theology, other than rejecting evolution. I was very adversarial back then! Not a good thing but I was.

http://personalitycafe.com/spiritua...rk-evidence-all-religions-lets-prove-god.html

I learned a lot from talking with atheists and trying to do apologetics. The main thing I learned is that it was 100% futile in all instances, except where God was assisting me. And when God was assisting me, at times I could tell God was working in it, and then it would bring a result. In the end, I have just went over into the camp of relying on God, and the "proofs" and apologetics is mostly a big waste of time. Preaching to the choir on this stuff is more interesting, because the choir are the ones looking to learn on the subjects.

Lost people can't generally be convinced with refutations of evolution and the like.

God's power in action and demonstration is the proof as scripture says.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,051
394
✟25,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is the possibility that God already knows the statistics and
caused it to happen anyway in spite of the odds against it.

This is one of the points people raise. It's true. It is also not the theory of evolution as it is written, since that relies on Natural selection + random mutation.

But if you create a series of events with non-random mutation, then absolutely. You could assemble together an organism.

The thing is, if we look at how organisms are built, there is not a smooth transition in many instances. Cow to whale? What happens along such a theoretical transition, is there arrives point at which you need several things all at once, co-functioning with each other. At which point a steady progression is no longer permissible or expected if you were trying to do this.

And if God changes 15 to several hundred things inside an organism all in one go... why not just make the thing from dust, like he made Adam from dust, all in one go?

If you look at how the development must occur, at all major transitions, you have many times where hundreds of changes are needed, and it would just be completely miraculous... so if you're already talking about miracles, just go for bigger miracles rather than smaller ones.
 
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,051
394
✟25,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Assuming this is correct, so what? Even if you legitimately disprove evolutionary theory, that still doesn't prove creationism.

It's an interesting point.

Darwin's Evolution is natural selection + random mutation.

There are 3 parts to play with there... natural selection, random, and mutations.

From just the science, I completely agree with you. The miraculous things of God, can't be proven by a science though, because all science was first based upon philosophical assumptions which are believed.

And if we are taking scientific philosophy assumptions as axioms we believe, at that juncture we have a problem with "proof" itself. Are these axioms scientifically proven? No. Do we treat them as if they are proven? Some say yes, others say no, some say "it depends".

And so what is proof?

When constructing a proof, in general, we cannot prove the axioms. This is a ditch science finds itself trying to wade into often, and I think trying to explore in that direction is interesting, but it's also logically flawed at the same time, because logic becomes circular.

To develop a true proof, you would have to have things you actually believed, but simpler than scientific assumptions, because even scientists don't believe the assumptions of science as generalized assumptions which apply 100% of the time, since they're smarter than that. They look for loopholes and what not and often find them.

This was a contention I would always find in debates with atheists. A lot of people throw around the word "proof" but really haven't put much thought into what it means, what it is, and really, the subjective nature of what men mean when they say proof, even if it is a scientific request for it, because science itself is subjective in various ways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This is one of the points people raise. It's true. It is also not the theory of evolution as it is written, since that relies on Natural selection + random mutation.

"Random" is a word non-engineers use to describe things they can't explain.
Actually, "natural" is used in a similar way to describe processes that are
so complex, that man is unable to predict the results.

But those schooled in physics know that most everything is not random.
There are events at the quantum level that are considered random
becasue the forces that cause them have not been identified.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And if God changes 15 to several hundred things inside an organism all in one go... why not just make the thing from dust, like he made Adam from dust, all in one go?

Perhaps that is what He is doing. God doesn't experience time as we do.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
"Random" is a word non-engineers use to describe things they can't explain.
Actually, "natural" is used in a similar way to describe processes that are
so complex, that man is unable to predict the results.

But those schooled in physics know that most everything is not random.
There are events at the quantum level that are considered random
because the forces that cause them have not been identified.

In fact, the correct name of the theory is "evolution by random variation and natural selection." Mutation is only one of the causes of variation.

And, "random" does indeed mean something like "unpredictable" to scientists and engineers, but the real possibility exists that quantum events are random in the full sense that they are in principle unpredictable and will remain so no matter how much scientific information we acquire.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In fact, the correct name of the theory is "evolution by random variation and natural selection." Mutation is only one of the causes of variation.

And, "random" does indeed mean something like "unpredictable" to scientists and engineers, but the real possibility exists that quantum events are random in the full sense that they are in principle unpredictable and will remain so no matter how much scientific information we acquire.

It has not been shown that quantum physics is involved in DNA
variation. There is nothing random in biology, just unknown
factors. Again, saying something is random simply declares
one to be in the dark.
 
Upvote 0

Razare

God gave me a throne
Nov 20, 2014
1,051
394
✟25,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There is no such thing as random.

There is if God made random. I'm not saying random is real or not, I don't know. But I do know, God could make random if he needed to.

I use the word random for the sake of scientific discussion, which is all built on flawed logic to begin with.

"If random is true... " like that. If random exists, and applies, then here are the consequences. I'm not really claiming it is true or false, though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is if God made random. I'm not saying random is real or not, I don't know. But I do know, God could make random if he needed to.

Or any color we can't see. I can't argue with your logic there.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
There is no such thing as random.
Evidently you are a Determinist. So...?

Do you believe that a randomizing element in a natural process (like the random variation in evolution) would constitute a barrier to divine providence?

Do you believe God incapable of creating a natural process with a random element?
 
Upvote 0