Divorced..and feel a calling to pastor

[breathingforJC]

David had her husband killed, after that she wasn't married anymore. David was guilty of adultery and murder, but he sincerely repented of it. People married to other mens wives, whom we speak of, do so with their chins held high shamelessly in self righteousness.

Whom we speak of? Are you saying the man who has been divorced holds his head high? David was a man after God's own heart yet commited adultery and murder. Jesus said that no murderer has a place in Heaven. But read this

Deu 4:26-29 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

Again, If God has called someone and calling someone to be a pastor, who are we to counteract that command? We all are servants of God, and a servant doesn't tell His master what to do.

 

[Honibee]

The idea that those who divorce and remarry are perpetually sinning the sin of adultery is absolutely false, my friend, and for good reason. First, there is only one unpardonable (unforgiveable sin), which Jesus spoke to the those who denied the power of God's Spirit. Don't put a divorced person who is remarried, perhaps to a wonderful Christian woman in the category of living in perpetual sin. When a man is bound in marriage to the woman he remarries, he is not to divorce her and go back to the former woman

Agree completely, Autumnleaf, with your followup post to this.
I'd like to share a seciton of a post I entered at another site. It might help
here, to establish that Jesus abrogated the divorce allowance of Moses and set a new standard:

In Matthew 19, Jesus establishes a 'new way' regarding remarriage after divorce- the way He intended from the beginning. In this chapter, Jesus is being tested by the Pharisees here. At that time, scholars agree there were two schools of thought on the divorce / remarriage issue. 'Hillel' (sp?) taught that divorce could occur for ANY reason. 'Shammai'(sp?) taught that only infidelity was the reason for divorce. IF Jesus was saying that infidelity in marriage was the only reason for divorce, He simply had to say He agreed with the 'Shammai' train of thought.

As we read Matthew's account however, we see the desciples were stunned by what Jesus actually said. Stated in context, Jesus said, 'If an innocent married woman (virgin at consumation) is divorced by her husband, he causes her to commit adultry if she remarries.' (my paraphrase to show the context of what is said) He set the standard here that His desciples understood- 'Remain married, or remain celebate.' (vs 10-12).

So, we see Jesus' response was neither 'Hillel', nor 'Shammai' in it's thought, but that which was from the beginning- one man with one woman, for life.

IF one in ministery were to remain celebate after divorce, the witness of the power of God, would be with authority- that comes with obedience. I know a man who is walking with God this way, in a deliberate choice of obedience, after his wife left him. His witness is very powerful. He is not in a pulpit ministry, but is FAR more effective in his obedient witness. Many lives have been touched by his example.

(edited)

 

[Autumnleaf]

Whom we speak of? Are you saying the man who has been divorced holds his head high?

People who divorce for reasons other than fornication/remarry, consequently actively live in the sin of adultery and decide to be pastors.

David was a man after God's own heart yet commited adultery and murder. Jesus said that no murderer has a place in Heaven. But read this

Deu 4:26-29 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

Love that Old Testament fire & brimstone talk! Just goes to show how much God hates sin.

Again, If God has called someone and calling someone to be a pastor, who are we to counteract that command? We all are servants of God, and a servant doesn't tell His master what to do.

When in the history of the Bible has God called anyone actively engaged in sin to teach and lead God's people? We can not serve two masters, God and sin. A choice must be made my friend.

 

[AngelusSax]

When in the history of the Bible has God called anyone actively engaged in sin to teach and lead God's people? We can not serve two masters, God and sin. A choice must be made my friend.

God perfects us. To think we can do it ourselves is to have Pride and to be sinful in and of itself.

 

[breathingforJC]

Love that Old Testament fire & brimstone talk! Just goes to show how much God hates sin.

I don't know if you missed the whole thing or if you just liked to act like you missed it. Yes, God does hate sin but read it again

" But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

The first showed the great sins, and this part I put back on shows that God was willing to still forgive and forget.

When in the history of the Bible has God called anyone actively engaged in sin to teach and lead God's people? We can not serve two masters, God and sin. A choice must be made my friend.

But what happened to forgive and forget? Do you think that everyone God called was perfect? Do you think God expected them to become perfect?

Let us humble ourselves for a time and realize that we are no better then anyone else.

"Luk 18:13-14 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."

 

[~Nikki~]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Autumnleaf again.

Great posts!

 

[dwhitaker]

There is no sin other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit that is unforgiveable. Because a man has sinned once, assuming that he has sinned by divorce and remarriage...does not make him a perpetual sinner.

Has he committed adultery? Yes? Is he a perpetual adulterer because he remains married to this person? No, not at all. No more than David was not a perpetual adulterer because he remained married to Bathsheba. David confessed his sin. But remarriage is not something you can just toss away and go back to the former wife.
If one remarries, he is to honor this woman as his wife. God considers this woman his wife. Deuternomy 23 tells us that his former wife is no longer considered his wife by God. He is not to go back and marry her as this is an abomination to the Lord.

The idea of perpetual adultery is fabricated by overzealous fundamentalists and does not support the voice of Scripture.


David Whitaker, ThD, PhD

 

[Honibee]

Has he committed adultery? Yes? Is he a perpetual adulterer because he remains married to this person? No, not at all. No more than David was not a perpetual adulterer because he remained married to Bathsheba. David confessed his sin. But remarriage is not something you can just toss away and go back to the former wife.
If one remarries, he is to honor this woman as his wife. God considers this woman his wife. Deuternomy 23 tells us that his former wife is no longer considered his wife by God. He is not to go back and marry her as this is an abomination to the Lord.

As was shown before, David remaining married to Bathsheba really doesn't apply- David had her husband killed.

If one remarries, he is in adultry, according to Jesus (Matt. 19:9-12, Mk. 10:11-12, Lk 16:18). If one desires to repent in the case of divorce, the repentance includes celebacy, according to scripture (Mt.19:9-12).

If one remarries, he is to honor this woman as his wife. God considers this woman his wife. Deuternomy 23 tells us that his former wife is no longer considered his wife by God.

Again, Jesus re-established the standard that was from the beginning- completely abrogating the divorce allowance of Moses. His standard? One man with one woman, for life- stay married, or stay celebate. (Matthew 19:1-12)


(edited)

 

[Hispath]

I can see this debate going on forever!
I can only speak as to my own lifes circumstances, and not others. I won't say hypothetically, as I really don't have the energy to hypothisize(sp?)
My marriage to my wife, was the work of God I have no doubt. The manner in which we met, the things that have transpired since we've been together, dictate His work. My 2 prior marriages, like I've said before, were not of God and did not include Him. This one does.
I gave my message today, which was a testimony to His work in my life. Today was where He wanted me to be!
If He wants me to give another message, He will present the opportunity for me to do just that, this I have no doubt. My heart, body, mind, and soul, are His to to with as He sees fit. I pray and am preparing myself to do His bidding.
My message contained some very personal things that I have never shared with others before. It felt good, it felt right. It demonstrated His patience, His love, His support, His mercy. His Glory!
I am here only because He saw fit to save my life many years ago, long before I was seeking a relationship with Him. Despite my unwillingness in years past to see Him and follow Him, He has patiently been waiting for me and guiding me.
With the number of different personality types, no wonder God provides people from all different walks of life to pastor.
Will I ever become a full time pastor? If He wants me to. Right now I'll stick to being the youth leader unless He wants otherwise.
I believe that it is God's plan to use people from all different walks of life and experiences, because that is what it is going to take to make that connection to as many people as He can. He has created us all different, with different likes, dislikes, and expectations. So why wouldn't He provide a pastor for those who prefer a pastor who has been blessed with a good stable marriage from the start? Or a pastor who has confessed his wrong doing in a failed marriage and is now living a life according to Gods will. Whether that includes a new marriage or not. Was it in His plan that I got divorced, not just once but twice? I don't think so, I got divorced because my life did not include God. It was destined to fail. Because of my divorces, does that mean I can not share His word and love with others? I believe that after all Christ has done for me, I need to share His patience, love, and understanding with others. Whether that be in a formal congregational setting or amongst friends.
My sharing God's work in my life, brought tears to many in the congregation. Including my pastor, who returned home early from vacation. I pray that those tears brought them closer to our Father.
He is glorious and wonderful! He has plans for each and everyone of us! I will not, to the best of my ability, miss an opportunity to do God's bidding. If it means facing an attitude that I should not be sharing the word of God with others, because of my divorce, so be it.
Matthew 9:13
Go and learn what the Scriptures mean when they say, `Instead of offering sacrifices to me, I want you to be merciful to others.' I didn't come to invite good people to be my followers. I came to invite sinners."
Luke 10:16
My followers, whoever listens to you is listening to me. Anyone who says "No" to you is saying "No" to me. And anyone who says "No" to me is really saying "No" to the one who sent me.

 

[dwhitaker]

Autmnleaf, I have no doubt that you are a sincere Christian who loves God and has respect for God's Word. That is clear from your quotations from Scripture that seems to say, "I believe the Scripture has authority".

It is pretty clear that there is a distinct difference of opinion on this issue...however, one of these views is correct, not both to be sure. I think I know where you are coming from. You have a high view of marriage, and see that divorce can be destructive in the lives of people...and you are correct. I wholly support the Biblical view that marriage was intended to be permanent, and that God does not want us to take this lightly. Yet, where I differ, I believe, with you, is how God deals with those who have sinned in divorce. The greater issue here is not whether a divorced man can pastor again, but how God looks at this man who has sinned in divorce, and perhaps remarried. I do not question your sincerety, but I am concerned about the teaching that you have received in your past that makes you dissect Scriptures into fragmented concepts, rather than seeing the unity of the Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus did not come to abrogate the law of Moses. To abrogate, means to abolish. The Bible teaches that Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses. Jesus clearly said, "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" (Matthew 5:17). Though the Old Testament and New Testament economies were different, God has been the same God, revealing the same truths throughout. The consistent voice of Scripture is that God restores those who have been counted as sinners as though they are not. (Romans 4:6-8) The blood that Jesus shed on the cross "cleanses us from sin continually" (1 John 1:9) those of us who are "sinners" (1 John 1:8).

Having sinned in our past, confessing, and living Godly hence forth, does not put us in the category of "limited service due to sin". Jesus "cleanses us from all unrighteousness". Let's say a man today marries again, but has committed adultery...like David. Are you suggesting that he cannot confess this sin and seek forgiveness? That is contrary to Scripture. You might say, "yes, if he divorces the wife that he remarries" But, he cannot do that, because divorce is wrong. The Bible tells him that he must honor this wife. So, if a man sins this sin of adultery, in your opinion, really, he is trapped...he cannot confess it, because he is in adultery (according to your view) and he cannot change it (because he would have to divorce his new wife) so really this view is an unforgiveable sin...unless he does like David and has her former husband murdered. I can't think that all an adulterer needs to do is murder his wife's former husband to cease perpetual adultery...I know this reasoning most likely sound pretty absurd to you, and most likely is not what you believe, I just want you to see where this view will lead you if you follow this line of thinking, Autumnleaf...ONLY BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT FORGIVEN AND UNPARDONABLE).

Any man must be able to see his wrong, confess it, and continue to serve God. David did...so did Peter (New Testament). I have also not seen anywhere in the Bible where God elevates the sin of divorce over the sin of murder. If David had Bathsheba's husband killed in battle to cover his sin...that was as great as his wrongfully taking Bathsheba. It is a gross interpretation of the Bible when we, today, will welcome men who have fornicated before marriage (adultery in Jesus' words), murdered, been drug addicted, or any other form of sin, and have no problem with these entering ministry, but we say "no" to a man who has sinned in his past by divorce.

Maybe you are married, and have never divorced...though I do not know your situation, many who argue this the strongest are those who feel they could never sin a particular sin, because it is the one sin they have not committed. We can become interolerant of those sins that we do not see ourselves committing. We must see that even our own sins were nailed to the cross and could have sent us to Hell...that it took grace to cleanse us, as it takes grace to cleanse any other. Who will be given more honor in Heaven? The hooker or the healer? If both have received grace, then neither will receive more honoe. If this is true for Heaven, it must also be true on earth. God is not partial with men. It is all by grace...not by our works that we are elevated.


I believe that many person's theology is affected by their personal biases. We all have them, I am sure. However, I see the entire Bible calling us to see that God is a God of mercy, compassion and unending grace. He is the God of full restoration.

I praise Him that I can love my wife, whom I married the second time...who also loves the Lord, and know that I am obeying the Lord and serving Him and reaching out to hurting people. That is my ministry. People can believe I am perpetually sinning, if they would like to...but it is a gross aberation of truth.

Autumnleaf...I enjoy discussing truth...please take no offense. I have appreciated your intent to make your point from Scripture. I just believe that you are parroting a traditional, not bibilical view.

Grace
David Whitaker

 

[breathingforJC]

I have thought about both sides of the issue quite a bit over the weekend, and found this to be a slippery subject. Both sides can pull up scriptural support and debate their side very well. I think there is one thing left out, this mans heart. Where was his heart when he divorced before, where is his heart now? Did he bring on the divorces or did his wife leave him. What was the purpose of the divorce?

Some of those things seem very small, but sometimes I think can have a greater impact. I want you to go back with me to the Bible. How would you like a murderer leading God's people? A pagan? Think of Moses, He killed a man and where he grew up with egyptians I wouldn't be surprised if he worshipped false idols. yet God used him anyways.

How about someone who has persecuted Christians, killed God's people? Look at Saul who God renamed Paul. Full of sin, yet God forgave him and he became a witness for God.

I have watched divorces destroy people and their relationships with God. This man of whom we speak, has a great testimony. Yes, it was riddled with sin, and hurt. But isn't all of our lives? To say you aren't a sinner makes God a liar, and no sinner has a place in heaven.

I once had a pastor who was highly self-righteous, he told my church that he was accountable to no one, and if you tried to ever say he was in the wrong he wouldn't listen. I would rather a person who has sinned 'great' then one who has sinned 'little' and thinks he is the best thing.

The only way I can see to put this all in the right perspective is allow God to do as He will. "Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

 

[Honibee]

Jesus did not come to abrogate the law of Moses. To abrogate, means to abolish. The Bible teaches that Jesus came to fulfill the law of Moses. Jesus clearly said, "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" (Matthew 5:17). Though the Old Testament and New Testament economies were different, God has been the same God, revealing the same truths throughout. The consistent voice of Scripture is that God restores those who have been counted as sinners as though they are not. (Romans 4:6-8) The blood that Jesus shed on the cross "cleanses us from sin continually" (1 John 1:9) those of us who are "sinners" (1 John 1:8).

Yes, Jesus DID come to fulfill the law. When I stated that He abrogated the law of Moses, I was referring to the 'allowment' Moses made for divorce and remarriage. I was NOT saying Jesus abrogated the whole law. (I edited my posts to reflect this. My appologies.)

Again, in Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus is restoring what Moses ALLOWED, because of the hardness of men's hearts, to HIS original intent- one man with one woman, for life. (Ephesians 5:22-33 also supports this)

I have to wonder- should those, CLAIMING HIS REDEMPTION, really want to be governed by an 'allowance' given to the 'hardhearted' ?

 

[dwhitaker]

Honibee- I admire your insistence in debate...but, let me ask you, why would you consider a murder, a fornicator, drug addict as a minister, but not a man who has divorced?

Do you base this on 1 Timothy 3:2 that says a bishop must be the "husband of one wife"?

It is the only Scripture other than Titus' correlary that talks about a man's qualifications for ministry related to his marriage.

Now then, since this is the only verse that talks about a minister's quals. for ministry related to marriage...it is important that we understand what it says. All of the rationale and personal reasons why one would not want a divorced man leading his congregation is all personal, not biblical.'

This is the verse we have to deal with. "Husband of One wife" means "one woman sort of man". The question for the divorced man, is he a "one woman sort of man"...in other words, flirtatious, a womanizer, a ladies man. That is what the qualification says. It does not refer to a past divorce...it is talking about the man's present life.
Is he given to one woman and committed to her? If so, he is qualified.

All of 1 Timothy 3 refers to those things which are true of a man in his present character, not his past sin. When we do this, we are forcing meaning into the text that it does not mean. We eliminate men whom God has called. Yes, breathingforJC is right...it is about a man's heart...that is what was true of David, a man after God's heart...Those are men who have the present character of a "one woman sort of man".
God also blessed David with Solomon, the son of Bathsheba. That is grace my friend!
God brings blessings out of mistakes. He restores that which was broken.

Don't be afraid to reach out to God's restoration in your life, in those painful areas
that hurt. He wants to shower you with his grace

Love
David Whitaker

 

[Honibee]

Honibee- I admire your insistence in debate...but, let me ask you, why would you consider a murder, a fornicator, drug addict as a minister, but not a man who has divorced?

David, I have to admit, I would need time to really know a former murderer, addict, or fornicator before I could consider him my pastor.

Now then, since this is the only verse that talks about a minister's quals. for ministry related to marriage...it is important that we understand what it says... (Talking about 1 Tim. and Titus.)

All true believers are held to the standard Jesus re-established for d/r in Matt. 19:1-12, Mk. 10:11-12, Lk 16:18, 1Cor. 7:39. How is the MINISTER exempt from that? The qualifications listed in 1Tim. and Titus, would be in addition to basic christian obedience, would it not?

If the divorced pastor has chosen the way of obedience, and is not remarried and remaining celebate, his witness and example in life are profound.

Don't be afraid to reach out to God's restoration in your life, in those painful areas that hurt. He wants to shower you with his grace.

I appologize if my insistance in debate leads you to believe I am opporating out of 'pain'. Simply not true. My insistance comes from a pastor's anointing, that also flows to the pastor's wife. (My late husband was a pastor.) This topic cannot be approached from any angle that I don't personally understand.

We eliminate men whom God has called

Actually, men God has called ELIMINATE THEMSELVES by disobedience. The sin of divorce / remarriage is different than others, in that it is impossible for two people who have become one, to be two again, as it is GOD who has made them one. Man's civil law of divorce does not seperate the 'one-flesh' of the original covenant marraige. Ephesians 5:22-33 bears this out.

IMHO regarding d/r, grace is best seen in reconciliation, or remaining celebate- as we are told by Jesus to do. Hard words for the flesh to hear. But it is NOT a grievious thing to serve Him. His grace provides power to do what He commands us to do.

Blessings in Him.

 

[dwhitaker]

I would never argue against the sanctity of marriage, because, as you know, I believe that God intends marriage to be permanent. However, people can find themselves in situations where divorce happens. Some are given a divorce, easily obtained by their spouse, others find themselves in abusive marriages where the children are negatively affected, and though divorce is not necessarily the answer to these problems...when it does happen, God is gracious, even in these situations.

I wrestle with your reasoning of this "perpetual adultery" idea, believing that once a person falls into this one particular sin, he or she, for that matter, is living in a state of sin that can never be forgiven. With a piecemealed compilation of isolated Scriptures, you have come up with a new doctrine. The "one flesh" idea is one example. I agree that two become "one flesh" in marriage. This is the reason that God does sees marriage as permanent. If one joins to a harlot, or marries another, he breaks this unique bond that God has established. That is the sin of divorce. However, that two who have become one, cannot become two again, is not true, simply because you say it is. The Bible does not teach this. Even the sin of breaking the "one flesh" marriage bond can be forgiven and restored by God. Though I dislike using this argumentation, I will because it fits this topic. Simply because a person is divorced and we can "see" this sin, we capitalize on his disqualification. However, what about all of those men who fornicated with women before marriage. They have joined with one and become "one flesh" with them as well (The Bible does teach this 1 Corinthians 6:15-16), but these same men are accepted cart blanch into ministry without much question these days..though they have become "one flesh" with perhaps many women in their young age. What about those men who have lusted. According to Jesus they have committed adultery in their hearts. How many men in our pulpits have looked at a woman and lusted, even one time in their life time, their adultery would disqualify them according to your view. We don't consider these, because we can't "see" these sins.

The idea that a man cannot repent and change his life and still be a godly leader is contrary to God's concept of Full Restoration. You still have to tell me how Noah, Moses, David, Peter and so many others sinned greatly, but God restored them completely and used them mightily. I fear that many cling tenanciously to hyper-dispensationalism, and dissect the Bible where God did not inted to dissect...but that is another debate!

God's best to you...

David Whitaker

 

[dwhitaker]

Let me add to the previous post...having said what I said...just because others have sinned unnoticed by others, and realistically, might be considered by some unqualified for ministry does not make right the sin of the divorced pastor. As a teacher and parent as well, I used to tell the kids that simply because the other kids committed various offenses, doesn't excuse the one child being disciplined from his or her own sin.

I recognize this. However, I mentioned this to point out that the "divorced" person is singled out as a unique sin far great than others by some. It is not the only sin that is highlighted throughout the Bible. Murder, for example, is mentioned often, and is even equated with the sin of hating a brother. There are numerous examples of professing believers in the church, and pastors as well, who are hateful to other Christians. Their sin is equal to murder. Yet we do not deem them disqualified. A pastor who is angry and impatient does not bear the qualifications of being a man of God, yet there are so many angry and impatient and intolerant pastors that you would think it is a new qualification today. Paul told Timothy that "..the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose him"....however, again, many do not fit this qualification, but we do not stress that this disqualifies those who abuse it.

This is hypocrisy and unacceptable to God.

The point is, that we have to stop "labeling" certain sinners because in our eyes they have committed "the big one", and because we have lesser sins, or in our eyes "little sins" we are OK! No, it is all by grace that any of us can look into the eyes of the savior, or be involved in Christian service or be used of God. No, God does not want one who is actively in sin, an disobedience to serve, as he must take care of this sin through confession, and repentance before he can serve again....but God uses confessed, repentant sinners. Your problem is that you see the divorced person who has remarried as living in constant sin. Well, again, this man can repent of the sin that he has committed (as David did) and find God restoring him, and can be a testimony of God's grace and restoration to a sinful world. That Jesus died and acts as an Advocate for us who may have sinned...we can proclaim this to many who are hurting and allow them to be restored too.

Don't tell the remarried person that they are living in perpetual adultery, because when you do, you encourage them to sin again...divorcing their current wife, which is not sanctioned by God. He is now "one flesh" with her, and he must honor her as his wife, and cannot remarry his former wife (Deut. 23). This perpetual adultery idea is not found in God's Word my good friend. I can only hope that those who read this post will be helped and set free from any belief that they are continually sinning by loving and honoring their current wife. God expects this, and no more. He also expects that this man will continue to love her, and her only, and that he remain married to her...and not be flirtatious or a ladies man. That is what 1 Timothy 3 says.

May God bless those who are obedient to the Lord in these things, and may he be set free from this Pharisaaical doctrine of perpetual adultery for those who have married twice.

Grace
David Whitaker, PhD

 

[Autumnleaf]

David,

The way I see things about divorce from the good book is its either valid or not. If its valid the guy divorced his wife because shes a fornicator. In that case good riddance. If the divorce is for any other reason they're still married in God's eyes, or else why would they be in adultery for remarriage? If they choose to remarry in adultery, what makes them any different in God's eyes than the guy/adulterer who sneaks over to his neighbors house every day for sex with the neighbor's wife, after the husband leaves for work? If this guy repents and does not stop it, is he fit to be a pastor? Is his sin forgiven as he is actively engaged in it? The nature of adultery is theft. Stealing another person's spouse. If Jesus said remarriage for some people is adultery, when does the adultery end if such people choose to remarry?

 

[Honibee]

Your problem is that you see the divorced person who has remarried as living in constant sin. Well, again, this man can repent of the sin that he has committed (as David did) and find God restoring him, and can be a testimony of God's grace and restoration to a sinful world. That Jesus died and acts as an Advocate for us who may have sinned...we can proclaim this to many who are hurting and allow them to be restored too.

Praise God for His restorative grace. That is the message I sincerely strive to clarify. In David's example with Bathsheba, he had her husband killed. As a widow now, she was free to be his wife. I think where some might call repentance 'the confession of sin'- it entails more than that. True repentance involves a turning away from the sin. That's where grace comes in- to give us power over our flesh.

I agree completey that the whole counsel of God's word needs to be taken into consideration. And I ask you to consider David and Bathsheba's details in light of what Jesus (and Paul) established as the standard that God had in mind 'from the beginning'- before Moses had to make allowances because of the hardness of men's hearts. Please look at Matthew 19:9, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18, 1Cor. 7:10-11, 1Cor. 7:39, Ro. 7:2-3. These cannot correctly be overlooked. In Luke 16:16 (as well as others) Jesus tells us the 'law and prophets' where until John (the baptist). From that point on, the KINGDOM is preached. (Interesting to note- a few verses on (v 18) Jesus makes the divorce / remarriage issue part of His kingdom thought.)

I have much compassion for your situation, and I do not stand in condemnation, as it is not my place to judge your motives. I DO see and intend, to identify error that does not represent what is clearly taught in scripture. His grace IS sufficient to make full repentance. If our hearts are purely to seek Him, to walk in obedience to Him, He will make His truth known.

I wrestle with your reasoning of this "perpetual adultery" idea, believing that once a person falls into this one particular sin, he or she, for that matter, is living in a state of sin that can never be forgiven. With a piecemealed compilation of isolated Scriptures, you have come up with a new doctrine. The "one flesh" idea is one example. I agree that two become "one flesh" in marriage. This is the reason that God does sees marriage as permanent. If one joins to a harlot, or marries another, he breaks this unique bond that God has established. That is the sin of divorce. However, that two who have become one, cannot become two again, is not true, simply because you say it is. The Bible does not teach this...

In Romans 7, Paul is teaching on the law, using the example of marriage. Verses 2-3 say this:

2) For the woman which has a husband, is bound by law to her husband so long as he lives. But if her husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3) So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, SHE SHALL BE CALLED AN ADULTERESS: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

The continual state of adultery in remarriage in clearly shown by the use of the word 'adulteress', which denotes lifestyle, or constant action. Also, Ephesians 5:22-33 cover this very adequately, giving the example of the intimate relationship of one body to it's head (showing the mystery of Jesus and His church, and a man with his wife).

Again, Jesus and Paul show clearly what was established by God in the area of divorce and remarriage, before Moses made allowances for the hardhearted.

These are clear. I honestly don't understand the example of David and Bathsheba to prove otherwise.

A website I found very helpful: www.marriagedivorce.com.


Blessings in Him.


(PS- So people know, I'm NOT dispensationalist, hyper or otherwise)

 

[Honibee]

David,

The way I see things about divorce from the good book is its either valid or not. If its valid the guy divorced his wife because shes a fornicator. In that case good riddance. If the divorce is for any other reason they're still married in God's eyes, or else why would they be in adultery for remarriage? If they choose to remarry in adultery, what makes them any different in God's eyes than the guy/adulterer who sneaks over to his neighbors house every day for sex with the neighbor's wife, after the husband leaves for work? If this guy repents and does not stop it, is he fit to be a pastor? Is his sin forgiven as he is actively engaged in it? The nature of adultery is theft. Stealing another person's spouse. If Jesus said remarriage for some people is adultery, when does the adultery end if such people choose to remarry?

These questions REALLY DO deserve thought...

 

[dwhitaker]

Well, no one has really answered the issue concerning David's adultery and marriage to the woman he committed adultery. With due respect, I must say all of the stuff I am reading about David being in the Old Testament, and things are different in the new...and because he had her husband killed, therefore is not an adulterer any longer. Really, are you kidding? Should a man go out and kill his adulteress' husband to keep from being an adulterer? David's sins were compounded because, not only was he an adulterer, but a murderer, liar and a thief. Nathan the prophet told David that his sin was adultery. Adultery is adultery, whether committed in the Old Testament Economy or in the New. God looks at this sin today, just as He did in David's day.

David asked for forgiveness for his sin, but he remained married to Bathsheba. God blessed this marriage. Listen, David recognized the horror of his sin (Psalm 51) goes into quite lengthy detail of David's pain and confession for his sin. David's heart was right. David would have been wrong to divorce this new wife that he took in adultery.
The adultery was sin. David confessed it. He did not marry her with the intention of "getting away with adultery" ...he committed adultery, took the woman as his wife...then repented as he saw the great sin he had committed. David anguished over this sin. However, it was not God's plan for David to divorce her because somehow this would be perpetual adultery. Don't tell me that David could marry an adulterer and not be a perpetual adulterer, but someone today can marry an adulterer and be a perpetual adulterer.

Yes, when Jesus said if someone marries another person's wife, husband, it is adultery.
However, that sin can be confessed and forgiven. It is not perpetual adultery.
Show me where it tells a man who has remarried that he must divorce this woman?
Otherwise, if he sins perpetually by remarriage, and there is no way out...you have just created an unpardonable sin, which the Bible does not teach any other sin to be unpardonable other than blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I respect your stands upon what you believe, autumnleaf and honibee, but I have not read anything that smacks of the teaching of God's Word, even though you have quoted many scriptures. I have heard this line of reasoning,and the dogmatism doesn't ring true with the Bible's teaching on grace.

I still have to wonder how you would respond to all the great saints of the Bible with their many sins, yet they confessed them and sought the Lord with a true heart and God used them mightily. I wonder what scriptures you would use to tell them that they have no business leading others.
Grace
David