Divorce and remarriage

[danny ski]

Mathew 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Think about that statement and what it implies- two things just off the bat. A) The Torah originated with Moses and not Gd and/or B)Moses overstepped Gd's intent.

 

[AbbaLove]

Matthew 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

8 ... “Because of your *hardness of heart Moses permitted you to [a]divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever (b)divorces his wife, except for [c]immorality, and marries another woman [d]commits adultery[e].”

a Matthew 19:8 Or send away
b Matthew 19:9 Or sends away
c Matthew 19:9 Lit fornication
d Matthew 19:9 Some early mss read makes her commit adultery
e Matthew 19:9 Some early mss add and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery​

*"hardness of heart" suggests that in the beginning men were not hard on their wives. However, in time a wife's role as the helpmate was apparently carried to an extreme by many a husband. This "hardness of heart" suggests men would even beat their wives if she didn't do what the husband demanded of his helpmate. So apparently Moses caved in to the herd mentality by allowing a man to divorce his wife when in affect it was more likely the man's hardness of heart that was at fault.

God told Hosea, “Go, take to yourself a wife of harlotry" and yet in the end Hosea's love for Gomer remained without a "hardness of heart" that could have motivated Hosea to divorce her.

Hosea found Gomer, ragged, torn, sick, dirty, disheveled, destitute, chained to an auction block in a filthy slave market, a repulsive shadow of the woman she once was. We wonder how anyone could love her now. But Hosea bought her from her slavery for fifteen shekels of silver and thirteen bushels of barley (Hos. 3:2). Then he said to her, “You shall stay with me for many days. You shall not play the harlot, nor shall you have a man; so I will also be toward you” (Hos. 3:3) ... 8. Undying Love— The Story of Hosea and Gomer​

 

[Heber Book List]

Think about that statement and what it implies- two things just off the bat. A) The Torah originated with Moses and not Gd and/or B)Moses overstepped Gd's intent.

Jeremiah 3:8 G_d speaks of divorcing his people. If divorce was specifically NOT allowed, how come the concept is used by G_d? There is no qualifying comment in the JPS to cover this.

In Isaiah 50:1 where G_d asks a question about a bill of divorce - in this case the get was not issued, but the concept is to be understood.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is a clear teaching on divorce where adultery is the qualifying measure

Matthew 19:8-9 Divorce permitted for adultery

Your comments on these texts?

 

[AbbaLove]

Think about that statement and what it implies- two things just off the bat. A) The Torah originated with Moses and not Gd and/or B)Moses overstepped Gd's intent.

Moses overstepped G-d's intent by caving in to the herd mentality (see post #102 about Hosea and Gomer).

 

[Heber Book List]

We need to remember that the gospels were written between 63ce and 85ce (approximately), from remembered teachings of Yeshua. Paul, who wrote most of his letters prior to the gospels, gives a first hand account from 17 years after the road to Damascus experience, but rarely mentions, in comparison to the gospels, the teachings of Yeshua. Paul mentions that separation where one partner is an unbeliever 1 Cor 7:1-17 is acceptable, as his own teaching, not G_d's, and Roman's 7:2-3 doesn't directly cover divorce.

 

[danny ski]

Jeremiah 3:8 G_d speaks of divorcing his people. If divorce was specifically NOT allowed, how come the concept is used by G_d? There is no qualifying comment in the JPS to cover this.

In Isaiah 50:1 where G_d asks a question about a bill of divorce - in this case the get was not issued, but the concept is to be understood.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is a clear teaching on divorce where adultery is the qualifying measure

Matthew 19:8-9 Divorce permitted for adultery

Your comments on these texts?

You're making an assumption that the reason described in Deuteronomy pertains only to adultery. It doesn't. The literal translation is "indecency of matter". Our Sages decided that since there are already laws that delt with adultery, that the meaning was much broader. The recorded discourse between Hillel and Shammi sheds further light on the subject. Shammi tried to make the case for adultery only, an opinion that contradicted previous judgements and interpretations. His contemporaries disagreed, including Akiva and the original understanding remained. Obviously, the Christian writer embraced the opposite view.

 

[r4.h]

Jeremiah 3:8 G_d speaks of divorcing his people. If divorce was specifically NOT allowed, how come the concept is used by G_d? There is no qualifying comment in the JPS to cover this.

In Isaiah 50:1 where G_d asks a question about a bill of divorce - in this case the get was not issued, but the concept is to be understood.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is a clear teaching on divorce where adultery is the qualifying measure

Matthew 19:8-9 Divorce permitted for adultery

Your comments on these texts?

Yet in Jer 3:12 God says "return to me", "i will not remain angry forever" This cannot be likened to human divorce, as God is not taking another wife, nor is He actually breaking His covenant to love them forever.

Duet 24 1-4 is not divorce for adultery as adultery was punished by death. It was for "some uncleaness", which i guess could be a physical defect, even a mole or wart? whatever it was the man was being hard hearted.

To say Moses "allowed" divorce is really only to say he did not punish it, which would have been very difficult to do, as a man forced to stay with a woman he dispises would be a nightmare for the vunerable unprotected wife. But Jesus is now saying if we want to be His, we must ask him to make our marriages work. His Name is at stake, and we that fail cause unbelievers to blaspheme Him.

 

[danny ski]

Yet in Jer 3:12 God says "return to me", "i will not remain angry forever" This cannot be likened to human divorce, as God is not taking another wife, nor is He actually breaking His covenant to love them forever.

Duet 24 1-4 is not divorce for adultery as adultery was punished by death. It was for "some uncleaness", which i guess could be a physical defect, even a mole or wart? whatever it was the man was being hard hearted.

To say Moses "allowed" divorce is really only to say he did not punish it, which would have been very difficult to do, as a man forced to stay with a woman he dispises would be a nightmare for the vunerable unprotected wife. But Jesus is now saying if we want to be His, we must ask him to make our marriages work. His Name is at stake, and we that fail cause unbelievers to blaspheme Him.

Or we can apply Gd given reasoning. Divorce is bad, but a lifetime in an angry and hateful relationship is even worst. And while some people can be celibate, we were created with a drive to procreate. In fact, it's a commandment.

 

[Heber Book List]

You're making an assumption that the reason described in Deuteronomy pertains only to adultery. It doesn't. The literal translation is "indecency of matter". Our Sages decided that since there are already laws that delt with adultery, that the meaning was much broader. The recorded discourse between Hillel and Shammi sheds further light on the subject. Shammi tried to make the case for adultery only, an opinion that contradicted previous judgements and interpretations. His contemporaries disagreed, including Akiva and the original understanding remained. Obviously, the Christian writer embraced the opposite view.

As does the JPS 1917 & 1985 (or at least it chooses not to comment - silence is concurrence). Other JPS based literature would appear to disagree with you.

But that only deals with 2 of the quotes mentioned.

 

[r4.h]

Or we can apply Gd given reasoning. Divorce is bad, but a lifetime in an angry and hateful relationship is even worst. And while some people can be celibate, we were created with a drive to procreate. In fact, it's a commandment.

Are you saying Jesus cannot give us the grace to be more than an overcomer, even in an unhappy marriage? What of all those who thought their marriage hopelessly evil, but now testify of God healing it and making something beautiful, what if they had divorced?

If anyone says they are a Christian, then surely they believe in God who parts seas, makes mountains to melt like wax, even saved fire breathing Christian murdering Saul. To say God cannot heal and reverse any bad marriage is to deny the power of God.

 

[danny ski]

As does the JPS 1917 & 1985 (or at least it chooses not to comment - silence is concurrence). Other JPS based literature would appear to disagree with you.

But that only deals with 2 of the quotes mentioned.

I didn't specifically address them because the only one that matters is the one dealing with the subject directly. Nor am I trying to disprove your interpretation. For a Christian the New Testament's interpretation supercedes Mosaic one, I understand that. What I'm only saying is that the text itself, and in the context of established adultery laws, is broader.

 

[danny ski]

Are you saying Jesus cannot give us the grace to be more than an overcomer, even in an unhappy marriage? What of all those who thought their marriage hopelessly evil, but now testify of God healing it and making something beautiful, what if they had divorced?

If anyone says they are a Christian, then surely they believe in God who parts seas, makes mountains to melt like wax, even saved fire breathing Christian murdering Saul. To say God cannot heal and reverse any bad marriage is to deny the power of God.

I'm sure Gd can do whatever He wants. Why then go to all the trouble? Why are we commanded to enforce His laws in a society? Surely He can do it Himself.

 

[Heber Book List]

I didn't specifically address them because the only one that matters is the one dealing with the subject directly. Nor am I trying to disprove your interpretation. For a Christian the New Testament's interpretation supercedes Mosaic one, I understand that. What I'm only saying is that the text itself, and in the context of established adultery laws, is broader.

Not necessarily - depends on the individual.

 

[visionary]

Jeremiah 3:8 G_d speaks of divorcing his people. If divorce was specifically NOT allowed, how come the concept is used by G_d? There is no qualifying comment in the JPS to cover this.

In Isaiah 50:1 where G_d asks a question about a bill of divorce - in this case the get was not issued, but the concept is to be understood.

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is a clear teaching on divorce where adultery is the qualifying measure

Matthew 19:8-9 Divorce permitted for adultery

Your comments on these texts?

God seems to be dealing with the human race at the level that they are at. He is speaking in terms that they can relate to. It is not what He intended, in the beginning.

Abraham had more than one wife, and it was God intend that they are one man and one woman joined together in marriage. He said nothing to Abraham when He came to visit regarding this issue. It was not intended to be that way, and He does not honor it with the Abrahamic line promise.

If we have, due to circumstances, remarried, God continues on in His love for us, as we continue in for our love of Him. As in another thread, it was said that we "sin" daily, so is this a sin before God, and like David, who cheated, stolen, and committed adultery, still called God's friend. How God untangles the mess we make of our lives is amazing. But we are blessed to know such a gracious and understanding God who works with us where we are at, ever encouraging us to go forward and "sin no more". This forgiveness humbles us, shows our un

 

[r4.h]

I'm sure Gd can do whatever He wants. Why then go to all the trouble? Why are we commanded to enforce His laws in a society? Surely He can do it Himself.

As you know i suspect, God does not do whatever He wants in the affairs of men. It takes our choice to believe His promises that go counter intuitive to our thinking and reasoning. Upholding law and order has little relevance to the question of what we can believe God to do miracles.

 

[BukiRob]

To say Moses "allowed" divorce is really only to say he did not punish it, which would have been very difficult to do, as a man forced to stay with a woman he despises would be a nightmare for the vulnerable unprotected wife. But Jesus is now saying if we want to be His, we must ask him to make our marriages work. His Name is at stake, and we that fail cause unbelievers to blaspheme Him.

Pure speculation by you. There is NOTHING in the text that supports this view.

 

[Heber Book List]

Yet in Jer 3:12 God says "return to me", "i will not remain angry forever" This cannot be likened to human divorce, as God is not taking another wife, nor is He actually breaking His covenant to love them forever.

Duet 24 1-4 is not divorce for adultery as adultery was punished by death. It was for "some uncleaness", which i guess could be a physical defect, even a mole or wart? whatever it was the man was being hard hearted.

To say Moses "allowed" divorce is really only to say he did not punish it, which would have been very difficult to do, as a man forced to stay with a woman he dispises would be a nightmare for the vunerable unprotected wife. But Jesus is now saying if we want to be His, we must ask him to make our marriages work. His Name is at stake, and we that fail cause unbelievers to blaspheme Him.

I was questioning, in Jeremiah, why G_d even used the term divorce if it was not permitted under any circumstances, as far as he is concerned. It was not a vitally necessary choice of word.

The Mishnah, in my opinion, shows that there are views that are divided on divorce, as danny_ski mentioned, but it does have a whole section about it that makes interesting reading, including, but not limited to, abandonment, and sections relating to adultery, referencing Deut. 24:1 on several occasions.

 

[Open Heart]

I was questioning, in Jeremiah, why G_d even used the term divorce if it was not permitted under any circumstances, as far as he is concerned. It was not a vitally necessary choice of word.

The Mishnah, in my opinion, shows that there are views that are divided on divorce, as danny_ski mentioned, but it does have a whole section about it that makes interesting reading, including, but not limited to, abandonment, and sections relating to adultery, referencing Deut. 24:1 on several occasions.

Back in those days, there was no word for an annulment. A lawful divorce was basically what we would call an annulment today.

 

[r4.h]

I was questioning, in Jeremiah, why G_d even used the term divorce if it was not permitted under any circumstances, as far as he is concerned. It was not a vitally necessary choice of word.

The Mishnah, in my opinion, shows that there are views that are divided on divorce, as danny_ski mentioned, but it does have a whole section about it that makes interesting reading, including, but not limited to, abandonment, and sections relating to adultery, referencing Deut. 24:1 on several occasions.

For the same reason he uses the word murder, to explain an action, not to condone it. Jesus used many parables to show spiritual truths, but no need to when there is a word that exists already.

You dont seem to have answered much of what i said. God cannot permit that which He hates, he can demand its regulation lest the cup be filled and his wrath be poured out. Remember He is slow to anger, meaning He acts after trying other avenues first and that with many warnings from prophets.

Adultery was punished by death and divorce happened with or without Moses. Once the Israelites had crossed the Jordan, and began to settle here in there miles apart in their own territories, it was impossible that Moses be in any position to punish divorce. He could only warn them that it would bring Gods wrath speedily if they polluted the land by returning to woman they had divorced for having something detestable to them. That would breed mistrust and fragmentation that would causes following generations to be all sorts of inbreds and cast aways.

 

[Heber Book List]

For the same reason he uses the word murder, to explain an action, not to condone it. Jesus used many parables to show spiritual truths, but no need to when there is a word that exists already.

You dont seem to have answered much of what i said. God cannot permit that which He hates, he can demand its regulation lest the cup be filled and his wrath be poured out. Remember He is slow to anger, meaning He acts after trying other avenues first and that with many warnings from prophets.

Adultery was punished by death and divorce happened with or without Moses. Once the Israelites had crossed the Jordan, and began to settle here in there miles apart in their own territories, it was impossible that Moses be in any position to punish divorce. He could only warn them that it would bring Gods wrath speedily if they polluted the land by returning to woman they had divorced for having something detestable to them. That would breed mistrust and fragmentation that would causes following generations to be all sorts of inbreds and cast aways.

I didn't need to reply. I posted what I thought, and you posted what you thought. One doesn't have to debate or argue.