1stcenturylady

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If you walk in the Spirit, you will WANT to hear what God loves, because you will love to please him in every action.
It's those who don't want to hear the truth of the standard of the law, who do not love God.

Actually, I see it this way. If you walk in the Spirit, you will want to DO what God loves. And you will do it naturally with your Spirit-driven new engine. Zooooooom! :holy:
 
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PollyJetix

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Actually, I see it this way. If you walk in the Spirit, you will want to DO what God loves. And you will do it naturally with your Spirit-driven new engine. Zooooooom! :holy:
If that's the correct approach, then Paul got it wrong when he wrote some of his epistles.
 
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1stcenturylady

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If that's the correct approach, then Paul got it wrong when he wrote some of his epistles.

Well, you'll have to give an example of something towards another human being, that can't be overcome by love.
 
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PollyJetix

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Well, you'll have to give an example of something towards another human being, that can't be overcome by love.
This is what I'm talking about:
Ephesians:5:1-5
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Paul affirmed the centrality of love to God and to each other, However, he spelled out what was NOT love.
And THAT is what the Law prohibits.

Not that we stop doing those things to gain acceptance before God.
Grace imparts holiness to those who repent.
However, a carnal Christian is one who is walking in the flesh.
And carnal people need things spelled out, to show them they are NOT in the love of God.
So they can repent, and find grace to impart holiness again, as they begin again to walk in the love of God.

Omitting preaching the truth of God's holy standard, is like not feeding a child a balanced diet, but only giving him what he thinks he likes.
 
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1stcenturylady

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This is what I'm talking about:

Paul affirmed the centrality of love to God and to each other, However, he spelled out what was NOT love.
And THAT is what the Law prohibits.

Not that we stop doing those things to gain acceptance before God.
Grace imparts holiness to those who repent.
However, a carnal Christian is one who is walking in the flesh.
And carnal people need things spelled out, to show them they are NOT in the love of God.
So they can repent, and find grace to impart holiness again, as they begin again to walk in the love of God.

Omitting preaching the truth of God's holy standard, is like not feeding a child a balanced diet, but only giving him what he thinks he likes.

Why do we need a law telling us not to kill? Only a psychopath would kill and not think there was anything wrong with it. I'm not saying the law is bad. If you do wrong, you come under the judgment of God according to the standard of the law. However, we are dead to sin, by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. That's what I'm talking about.
 
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PollyJetix

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Why do we need a law telling us not to kill? Only a psychopath would kill and not think there was anything wrong with it. I'm not saying the law is bad. If you do wrong, you come under the judgment of God according to the standard of the law. However, we are dead to sin, by the POWER of the Holy Spirit. That's what I'm talking about.
You tell me why Paul had to write to the church at Ephesus that fornication, uncleanness, covetousness, filthiness, running after prostitutes, and idolatry, wouldn't make it into the Kingdom of God.

You're saying we ought not preach things like that.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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In actual reality true believers want to be as holy as they can be. They read the teaching of Jesus and the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, and John very carefully and set the standard of their lives based on what they find there. They feel humbled and actually are grieved when they cannot reach those standards. It is a mystery to all of us why we cannot be as holy as we want to be. There are times when our desires over rule our aim to the completely holy and we give way to temptation. Then we beat ourselves up and bash ourselves over the head with the rod of Moses until we become assure that God has forgiven us (for the umpteenth time). Then we move on in faith until the next time we got into conflict and mess up. This seems to be the regular experience of any genuine believer. That is, if that person is being truly honest with themselves instead of putting a religious "holier than thou" front.

Actually, "holier than thou" folks are merely compensating for their own feelings of failure but out of pride they don't want others to see what they are like in reality, so they over-compensate and appear "super-spiritual".

Paul and John wrote their letters to deal with specific issues they saw in the churches they visited. John wrote to counter the Gnostic heresy. Paul sets his standards which in most cases is almost difficult to attain. So what is the answer? The presentation of high standards drives people to Christ, to go boldly to His throne of grace to find mercy and grace to help in time of need. There is always a need for greater holiness and so we are always going to that throne of grace.

1 John 1:9 is a key to greater holiness. In that verse we are encouraged to go directly to God and talk about our conflicts. Religiously it is "confessing our sin" but in reality it is walking down a long isolated beach with my hands in my pockets, having a good chat with God about my issues, aspirations, shortcomings and failures. That is what confession is really. That's what God says most of the time: "Stop trying to meet your needs in your own strength. Come and talk it over with Me and we will sort things out." Now that's familiar: "Come let us reason together. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." So then, "reasoning together" is having a good talk with God about the issues.

We see posts on the forum where some have poured out their hearts about their personal conflicts, especially on the Christian Advice forum. But what if they got before God and said the same things to Him? They would be amazed at how quickly God would respond to them. Sometimes we go to another person, pour out our soul to them, but then when we go to God we pray some formal PC-based prayer in the belief that if we were as brutally honest with God, the big thumb would come down from the sky and land on us! But God knows the depths of our hearts and the antic we get up to when no one else is looking, and He is not shocked because He has seen it all before. So why should be pour out our soul to God when He knows about it already? It is an act of faith and trust in Him. That's why we do it.

So prayer is not some formal duty that we have to do in order to keep us on the right side of holiness. It is the joy and pleasure of getting alone with our Best Friend and sharing everything with Him. We talk about the good, bad and the ugly. This is what true fellowship with God is all about.
 
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You tell me why Paul had to write to the church at Ephesus that fornication, uncleanness, covetousness, filthiness, running after prostitutes, and idolatry, wouldn't make it into the Kingdom of God.

You're saying we ought not preach things like that.
The standard has to be upheld. But we don't leave people in the depths of condemnation. The preaching of the standards brings the conviction of sin and then the heart cries out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then the finished work of Christ is presented to them. This is the good news of the Gospel. In order for us to really appreciate the great thing that Jesus did for us on the Cross, we have to see the extent of sin in ourselves. But we don't stay in the sin-conscious state, but we go on to be Christ-conscious.
 
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1stcenturylady

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You tell me why Paul had to write to the church at Ephesus that fornication, uncleanness, covetousness, filthiness, running after prostitutes, and idolatry, wouldn't make it into the Kingdom of God.

You're saying we ought not preach things like that.

No, Polly, not everyone dies to the flesh. There are still carnal Christians going to church. People that still need a schoolmaster. That is why your emphasis is on the letter of the law and that is good for them, and mine is to mature Christians on the importance of becoming empowered by the Spirit, dying to the flesh daily, to rise up to heights ABOVE the law.

We're a good team! :hug:
 
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PollyJetix

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Actually, "holier than thou" folks are merely compensating for their own feelings of failure but out of pride they don't want others to see what they are like in reality, so they over-compensate and appear "super-spiritual".
For some, perhaps. But then, there is also the finger-pointing and accusations of "holier-than-thou" toward those who honestly are pursuing God as hard as possible... from those who cannot understand such a drive to pursue holiness.

So prayer is not some formal duty that we have to do in order to keep us on the right side of holiness. It is the joy and pleasure of getting alone with our Best Friend and sharing everything with Him. We talk about the good, bad and the ugly. This is what true fellowship with God is all about.
Exactly. And we all are each a work in progress. Every one of us needs to learn to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

There is also the process of laboring to enter into spiritual rest. We tend to criticize everyone who is in this process, because it looks so painful and not where they ought to arrive, eventually. But it is impossible to enter into rest, without the process.

Hebrews 4:9-11 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest..."
 
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1stcenturylady

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For some, perhaps. But then, there is also the finger-pointing and accusations of "holier-than-thou" toward those who honestly are pursuing God as hard as possible... from those who cannot understand such a drive to pursue holiness.


Exactly. And we all are each a work in progress. Every one of us needs to learn to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

There is also the process of laboring to enter into spiritual rest. We tend to criticize everyone who is in this process, because it looks so painful and not where they ought to arrive, eventually. But it is impossible to enter into rest, without the process.

Hebrews 4:9-11 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest..."

Because my emphasis is on the Holy Spirit indwelling us, it seems you and Oscarr think I think I'm being "holier than thou." Wow.
 
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PollyJetix

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Because my emphasis is on the Holy Spirit indwelling us, it seems you and Oscarr think I think I'm being "holier than thou." Wow.
No. Don't personalize it.
That's actually funny... I was feeling like you felt I was being "holier than thou."
 
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Because my emphasis is on the Holy Spirit indwelling us, it seems you and Oscarr think I think I'm being "holier than thou." Wow.
You don't come across like that to me! Anyone who laughs at my silly jokes can't be "holier than thou".
 
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No. Don't personalize it.
That's actually funny... I was feeling like you felt I was being "holier than thou."
Does that mean that when you go to church you choose the "non-snoring" section? Hahahahahaha!
 
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Phil, were the Pharisees under the Law?
Only death can end a marriage. Romans 7:1-3 and 1Corinthians 7:39 makes that very clear. 1Corinthians 7:10-11 the Lord commands not to depart from her husband and there are no exceptions made, but if she does depart, she must remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. In this text we have a man that puts away wife and marrieds another woman. Jesus says that whoever marries her commits adultery. She's the innocent party and yet Jesus still considers her the man's wife. The husband is the one that divorced her and marry another and yet Jesus says, if she marrieds another man other than her husband, she is an adultery's. She's not the one that committed adultery. She's not the one that divorced her husband and married another man. Yet, she's not allowed to remarry. Now, people like to use Matthew 5:31-32. Notice that Jesus use the word fornication and not adultery. Fornication in this context is used in the traditional sense. In other words, sex between unmarried couples.
1 Corinthians 6:9 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Here we see a distinction between fornication and adultery, because the two are not one and the same. Adultery can only be committed by people that are married. Married people can't fornicate because they are not single. Nowhere in scripture is fornication used to mean adultery.

This is what Jesus was referring when He spoke of fornication. If the woman fornicated before marrying the man she was engaged to, he could annul the marriage. It was the only exception allowed.
In Deuteronomy 22:13-28
13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. Here we can read clearly what the penalty was for adultery and it wasn't divorce, it was death. That allowed the innocent spouse to remarry because the other spouse was now dead. The penalty for adultery was death by stoning, not divorce.
 
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Only death can end a marriage. Romans 7:1-3 and 1Corinthians 7:39 makes that very clear. 1Corinthians 7:10-11 the Lord commands not to depart from her husband and there are no exceptions made, but if she does depart, she must remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery. In this text we have a man that puts away wife and marrieds another woman. Jesus says that whoever marries her commits adultery. She's the innocent party and yet Jesus still considers her the man's wife. The husband is the one that divorced her and marry another and yet Jesus says, if she marrieds another man other than her husband, she is an adultery's. She's not the one that committed adultery. She's not the one that divorced her husband and married another man. Yet, she's not allowed to remarry. Now, people like to use Matthew 5:31-32. Notice that Jesus use the word fornication and not adultery. Fornication in this context is used in the traditional sense. In other words, sex between unmarried couples.
1 Corinthians 6:9 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Here we see a distinction between fornication and adultery, because the two are not one and the same. Adultery can only be committed by people that are married. Married people can't fornicate because they are not single. Nowhere in scripture is fornication used to mean adultery.

This is what Jesus was referring when He spoke of fornication. If the woman fornicated before marrying the man she was engaged to, he could annul the marriage. It was the only exception allowed.
In Deuteronomy 22:13-28
13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel. Here we can read clearly what the penalty was for adultery and it wasn't divorce, it was death. That allowed the innocent spouse to remarry because the other spouse was now dead. The penalty for adultery was death by stoning, not divorce.
So, you believe that Christians should live by the Law and not the Gospel?
 
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John Ortiz

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Yes, your ex-husband IS living in "perpetual" adultery with his mistress/wife--since he is "the guilty party." According to Matthew 19, he is, in fact, living in perpetual adultery, and he is NOT free to remarry, since he is the one who committed adultery against you. According to Matthew 19, the adulterer's punishment/penalty for committing adultery is to remain celibate the rest of their Christian life. The reason for this is that the adulterer is the one who made the decision to break the bond of marriage and voluntarily become "the guilty party." Therefore the adulterer is the one who must bear the penalty for his/her actions. "The innocent party," in this case you, did absolutely nothing wrong and therefore does NOT bear any penalty.

Therefore, the "good news" is that you ARE free to remarry, since you are "the innocent party."

(My ex-wife did the very same thing to me--which is typical sociopathic/psychopathic behavior.)
Remarriage under any circumstance with the exception of a widow is adultery. Fornication isn't adultery. Read Deuteronomy 22:13-21. That explains what Jesus meant when He said that fornication was the only grounds for annulling a marriage. If the bride was found not to be a virgin by the groom on the day that the marriage was to be consummated, he could annul the marriage and she would be put to death by stoning. Deuteronomy 22:22 explains what the penalty for adultery was and it wasn't divorce, it was death. That freed the innocent spouse to remarry because the other person was dead. Twice Paul teaches very clearly that two people are bound to each other until death, read Romans 7:1-3 and 1 Corinthians 7:39. The only place that the exception that is made for divorce is in Matthew 5:31 and Matthew 19:9. It is no coincident that it was written by a Jew. Jesus was speaking to Jews who knew the law. Once a man and a woman is made one flesh, nothing can separate the two. That's why Jesus said that what God joins, let no man put asunder. In other words, only God thru death can end a marriage. Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 make it very clear remarriage while the spouse is still living is adultery. The new bible version use the word sexual immorality, but that is two broad a word to use in these context. If any sexual immoral act ends a marriage, then why does the bible make a distinction between fornication, adultery and homosexuality? 1 Corinthians 6:9 makes a distinction between fornication and adultery. People that have never been married or a widowed man or woman, cannot commit adultery. Only married people can commit adultery. Throughout scripture, the correct context of the word fornication has always been, sex between a man and a woman that are not married. Jesus told Peter that if your brethren trespasses against you 70 times 7, to forgive them every single time. People say that Jesus meant 490 in one day, but I think Jesus meant 70 and then add another 70 behind that, for example, 7070707070707070... Surely one can forgive their spouse. Our righteousness must be greater than those that don't know Jesus. How many times does Jesus forgive us?
 
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So, you believe that Christians should live by the Law and not the Gospel?
No. I believe Christians should live by the word of God. Obedience isn't living under the law. Paul is the one who uses the law, not me. I just take scripture at its word. In means what it says and says what it means. We are delivered from the curse of the law, but now we can fulfill the law through Christ, where as before it was impossible though our own effort. The Christian life isn't difficult, it's impossible, but with Christ all things are possible. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Paul uses the law and keep in mind that this is NT, to teach a doctrine on the marriage covenant. Paul does this twice. If you murder, are you not condemned by the law? If you steal, lie or commit adultery, are you not judge by the law? James 2:8:13 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Jesus made us free from the curse of the law, because it is written, the man that sinneth shall surely die. But through Christ we can receive forgiveness. Look at Ananias and Safira. They dropped dead because of one sin and this is in the NT Church. Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins... Under the grace, we are held to a much higher standard and the consequences are far greater. In the OT, they didn't have the Holy Spirit like the Church of the Lord Jesus does. Do you think that the Church is held to a lower standard. In the OT it is written, thou shalt not kill, but John said that if you hate your bother you're a murderer. I let scripture speak for itself. It says what it says and you can take it or leave it, but you will answer to God. The bible is filled with scriptures that tell us what and what not to do. The standard is higher.
 
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