Divorce and Remarriage

[PollyJetix]

Yes, your ex-husband IS living in "perpetual" adultery with his mistress/wife--since he is "the guilty party." According to Matthew 19, he is, in fact, living in perpetual adultery, and he is NOT free to remarry, since he is the one who committed adultery against you. According to Matthew 19, the adulterer's punishment/penalty for committing adultery is to remain celibate the rest of their Christian life. The reason for this is that the adulterer is the one who made the decision to break the bond of marriage and voluntarily become "the guilty party." Therefore the adulterer is the one who must bear the penalty for his/her actions. "The innocent party," in this case you, did absolutely nothing wrong and therefore does NOT bear any penalty.

Therefore, the "good news" is that you ARE free to remarry, since you are "the innocent party."

(My ex-wife did the very same thing to me--which is typical sociopathic/psychopathic behavior.)

Phil, were the Pharisees under the Law?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Phil, were the Pharisees under the Law?

If you don't repent of willful sin, are you automatically forgiven?

 

[PollyJetix]

If you don't repent of willful sin, are you automatically forgiven?

That's a different subject. And you are correct, that repentance is the doorway to forgiveness.

What I am talking about, is the fact that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, who were supposed to be keeping the Law. In fact, Jesus first referred them to the Law, when they asked him of the matter.

Mark 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
Mark 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

Jesus would not have referred the Pharisees to the Law, and then commanded them to break it.
If Jesus had been telling the Pharisees that Moses' law in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 no longer applied, He would never have asked them "what did Moses say?"

What Jesus actually said here about divorce-in-order-to-remarry, being adultery, is actually found in the OT.

Malachi 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit.
(God doesn't marry people on a spiritual level. He makes them one flesh, not one spirit.
He reserves the spirit for Himself, to be joined as one to himself --1 Cor 6:17.)
And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

If Jesus had been saying that all remarriage after divorce is adultery, then he would have been destroying the Law.
If He had been saying that all divorced couples need to break up their new homes, and go back to their former spouses, then Jesus would have been turning the abomination of Deuteronomy 24:4 into a commandment.

But the New Testament says the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Even Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

Yes, sin is perpetual, until it is repented of.
However, God does recognize marriages made in sin.

If it is true that all sinfully-established marriages need to break up, then where is the command for that in any of the Epistles? It isn't there. With all the problems Paul dealt with, in the Gentile church, surely this would have been a problem, especially in light of the fact that divorce and remarriage was so rampant in EVERY culture of that day!

But Paul spoke not one word of it.
And there is NO record of it, anywhere in the New Testament, being required of believers.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's a different subject. And you are correct, that repentance is the doorway to forgiveness.

What I am talking about, is the fact that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees, who were supposed to be keeping the Law. In fact, Jesus first referred them to the Law, when they asked him of the matter.



Jesus would not have referred the Pharisees to the Law, and then commanded them to break it.
If Jesus had been telling the Pharisees that Moses' law in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 no longer applied, He would never have asked them "what did Moses say?"

What Jesus actually said here about divorce-in-order-to-remarry, being adultery, is actually found in the OT.


If Jesus had been saying that all remarriage after divorce is adultery, then he would have been destroying the Law.
If He had been saying that all divorced couples need to break up their new homes, and go back to their former spouses, then Jesus would have been turning the abomination of Deuteronomy 24:4 into a commandment.

But the New Testament says the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Even Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

Yes, sin is perpetual, until it is repented of.
However, God does recognize marriages made in sin.

If it is true that all sinfully-established marriages need to break up, then where is the command for that in any of the Epistles? It isn't there. With all the problems Paul dealt with, in the Gentile church, surely this would have been a problem, especially in light of the fact that divorce and remarriage was so rampant in EVERY culture of that day!

But Paul spoke not one word of it.
And there is NO record of it, anywhere in the New Testament, being required of believers.

I don't understand why you took issue with Phil. He was agreeing with the fact that my husband and his mistress were living in perpetual adultery.

1. They divorced their spouses in order to marry each other.

2. They had no biblical cause.

3. They never repented.

 

[PollyJetix]

I don't understand why you took issue with Phil. He was agreeing with the fact that my husband and his mistress were living in perpetual adultery.

1. They divorced their spouses in order to marry each other.

2. They had no biblical cause.

3. They never repented.

I take issue with the idea of perpetual adultery.
All sin is perpetual, until it is repented from.
However, repentance from wrongful divorce and remarriage does not require another divorce.

I know a family with 4 daughters.
This man's first wife ran off with another man, leaving this young father with 4 little girls to raise, alone. He married again. This woman stepped into the family of 4 little girls, raising them as if they were her own.

They are trying to fellowship with the Conservative Mennonite church I come from.
They have adopted the head-coverings and the plain clothes.
But they are not allowed to join... unless they divorce.

According to their rules, repentance hasn't happened, unless the man remarries his original wife. (It matters not to them what God said in Deuteronomy 24:4) It matters not to them what happened to break up the original marriage.

This is where the idea of "perpetual adultery" takes you, if you follow it to the end.
It requires that homes be broken up, and the abomination of Deuteronomy 24:4 be committed.

But God doesn't change. It's still an abomination to him.

 

[PollyJetix]

oops

 

[1stcenturylady]

I take issue with the idea of perpetual adultery.
All sin is perpetual, until it is repented from.
However, repentance from wrongful divorce and remarriage does not require another divorce.

I know a family with 4 daughters.
This man's first wife ran off with another man, leaving this young father with 4 little girls to raise, alone. He married again. This woman stepped into the family of 4 little girls, raising them as if they were her own.

They are trying to fellowship with the Conservative Mennonite church I come from.
They have adopted the head-coverings and the plain clothes.
But they are not allowed to join... unless they divorce.

According to their rules, repentance hasn't happened, unless the man remarries his original wife. (It matters not to them what God said in Deuteronomy 24:4) It matters not to them what happened to break up the original marriage.

This is where the idea of "perpetual adultery" takes you, if you follow it to the end.
It requires that homes be broken up, and the abomination of Deuteronomy 24:4 be committed.

But God doesn't change. It's still an abomination to him.

Phil and I were talking about my husband's stance, not mine.

So you think my husband and his mistress wife are NOT living in perpetual adultery, even though they never repented. So you can rob a bank, repent, and keep the money?

 

[PollyJetix]

Phil and I were talking about my husband's stance, not mine.

So you think my husband and his mistress wife are NOT living in perpetual adultery, even though they never repented. So you can rob a bank, repent, and keep the money?

Apples and oranges.
People are not money.
How would your husband give his current wife back?
How could you take your former husband back, without committing an abomination, according to the law, which Paul says is holy, just, and good?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Apples and oranges.
People are not money.
How would your husband give his current wife back?
How could you take your former husband back, without committing an abomination, according to the law, which Paul says is holy, just, and good?

So, according to you, he can have his cake and eat it too?

He wasn't free to marry her in the first place, so they are just living in sin. Where does God say for them to stay together? In the sight of the law, they should separate if he REALLY wanted God's will. She was never his to have.

 

[PollyJetix]

1stcenturylady...

Just as one who commits murder is not committing perpetual murder as long as they remain unrepentant... they only ARE a murderer by definition because of a past sin...

Even so, one who commits adultery by divorcing and remarrying is not perpetually committing the act of adultery, but is only by definition an adulterer because of a past sin.

Remember, that one who is joined to a harlot is "one flesh" with her.
Yet, visiting a harlot cannot be undone.

Did you know that a woman carries in her body until the day she dies, the DNA of every man she has had sex with? They really do become "one flesh." And it cannot be undone.

No more than murder can.

It is very important for the one sinned against, to find freedom from the former marriage. And that cannot happen as long as she sees her former husband as continually committing adultery against her. She must release him from his debt to her. Otherwise, she will feel bound in spirit, and will struggle with resentment and bitterness.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1stcenturylady...

Just as one who commits murder is not committing perpetual murder as long as they remain unrepentant... they only ARE a murderer by definition because of a past sin...

Even so, one who commits adultery by divorcing and remarrying is not perpetually committing the act of adultery, but is only by definition an adulterer because of a past sin.

Remember, that one who is joined to a harlot is "one flesh" with her.
Yet, visiting a harlot cannot be undone.

Did you know that a woman carries in her body until the day she dies, the DNA of every man she has had sex with? They really do become "one flesh." And it cannot be undone.

No more than murder can.

It is very important for the one sinned against, to find freedom from the former marriage. And that cannot happen as long as she sees her former husband as continually committing adultery against her. She must release him from his debt to her. Otherwise, she will feel bound in spirit, and will struggle with resentment and bitterness.

Every day he stays with his mistress, he is committing sin against his wife. That is perpetual.

 

[PollyJetix]

Every day he stays with his mistress, he is committing sin against his wife. That is perpetual.

Jesus didn't say that. And neither did Paul.

 

[1stcenturylady]

1stcenturylady...

Just as one who commits murder is not committing perpetual murder as long as they remain unrepentant... they only ARE a murderer by definition because of a past sin...

Even so, one who commits adultery by divorcing and remarrying is not perpetually committing the act of adultery, but is only by definition an adulterer because of a past sin.

Remember, that one who is joined to a harlot is "one flesh" with her.
Yet, visiting a harlot cannot be undone.

Did you know that a woman carries in her body until the day she dies, the DNA of every man she has had sex with? They really do become "one flesh." And it cannot be undone.

No more than murder can.

It is very important for the one sinned against, to find freedom from the former marriage. And that cannot happen as long as she sees her former husband as continually committing adultery against her. She must release him from his debt to her. Otherwise, she will feel bound in spirit, and will struggle with resentment and bitterness.

Do you honestly believe that the day after the wedding to his mistress he isn't sinning anymore? The sin lasts for as long as it has not been repented.

 

[PollyJetix]

Look at I Corinthians 7:

12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Do you see how if an unbeliever departs, the believer is FREE?

For 14 years, I viewed my unfaithful husband the same way you see yours, as if he still belonged to me. As if that former marriage was still valid before God. As if he was perpetually committing adultery.

But that put ME, the innocent party, into terrible bondage.

I had to keep that door open, to an abuser. I was not free to remarry, because my former marriage was still a marriage. I was in emotional distress, looking hopefully for any change of heart, being cast into heights of hope, and then cast deep into sorrow, all over again. All because I had not recognized the marriage was GONE. It no longer existed.

You say, "No! Because you were the innocent party! YOU were free!"
Right. But if I am free from the marriage, then so is he.
One person cannot remain married to another, who is no longer married to him.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Look at I Corinthians 7:


Do you see how if an unbeliever departs, the believer is FREE?

For 14 years, I viewed my unfaithful husband the same way you see yours, as if he still belonged to me. As if that former marriage was still valid before God. As if he was perpetually committing adultery.

But that put ME, the innocent party, into terrible bondage.

I had to keep that door open, to an abuser. I was not free to remarry, because my former marriage was still a marriage. I was in emotional distress, looking hopefully for any change of heart, being cast into heights of hope, and then cast deep into sorrow, all over again. All because I had not recognized the marriage was GONE. It no longer existed.

You say, "No! Because you were the innocent party! YOU were free!"
Right. But if I am free from the marriage, then so is he.
One person cannot remain married to another, who is no longer married to him.

The problem with pulling that scripture out of the hat is that it doesn't apply. We were both Christians. Though, I think his oil in his lamp has by now dried up.

I'm not saying I'm not free. I'm saying he was NEVER free to marry his mistress; therefore, he is not married to her in the sight of God. You seem to be saying that he IS! I've got news for you. God NEVER put them together, anymore than He puts two homosexuals together! People like that aren't married either in the sight of God, only in the corrupt and despicable times we live in - thank you Obama, son of perdition.

 

[PollyJetix]

The problem with pulling that scripture out of the hat is that it doesn't apply. We were both Christians. Though, I think his oil in his lamp has by now dried up.

I'm not saying I'm not free. I'm saying he was NEVER free to marry his mistress; therefore, he is not married to her in the sight of God. You seem to be saying that he IS! I've got news for you. God NEVER put them together, anymore than He puts two homosexuals together! People like that aren't married either in the sight of God, only in the corrupt and despicable times we live in - thank you Obama, son of perdition.

Is it possible for an adulterer to be a believer?
All adulterers will find their place in the lake of fire.
Therefore, it is impossible to retain one's salvation, and be an adulterer.

Therefore, since the one who departs, via adultery, is an unbeliever, then the believer is NOT under the command Paul gives to "the married"... but instead under the command Paul gives to "the unmarried and widows."

 

[1stcenturylady]

Is it possible for an adulterer to be a believer?
All adulterers will find their place in the lake of fire.
Therefore, it is impossible to retain one's salvation, and be an adulterer.

Therefore, since the one who departs, via adultery, is an unbeliever, then the believer is NOT under the command Paul gives to "the married"... but instead under the command Paul gives to "the unmarried and widows."

You didn't address the most important issue. Is he married to her in the sight of God?

 

[PollyJetix]

Just as much as all those divorced-and remarried people in the Jewish culture were, who came into the church on the Day of Pentecost. And not one word was said about separating from wrongful marriages.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just as much as all those divorced-and remarried people in the Jewish culture were, who came into the church on the Day of Pentecost. And not one word was said about separating from wrongful marriages.

Yikes! I don't agree with you. You are saying he isn't a Christian. You are very liberal on this I think, just because you will do anything that is the opposite of Mennonite teachings. You can look for loop holes to combat them, but I won't. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Just as much as all those divorced-and remarried people in the Jewish culture were, who came into the church on the Day of Pentecost. And not one word was said about separating from wrongful marriages.

What if you are wrong, Polly? You could be convincing people to sin against God with liberality.