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Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?
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I think when it comes to the Father's wrath, we should not speculate.
Yes. I sometimes wonder about purgatory, and I don't assume that the main catholic doctrine is necessarily complete or even accurate, but more like a theory that is quite well fitted to what we know. But for instance, in contrast to their standard doctrine, I would think that if one truly confesses in the heart to God, contrition, that this is already Godly sorrow, and we are being 'cleansed', just as the verse reads. It's not incomplete, see. What more is there to then repair? But perhaps the idea is instead that people fail to confess all that they should? (but...if I understand (not sure I do), the catholic idea seems to be that in addition to being forgiven, a person must also pay a price: " have failed to do sufficient penance for sins already forgiven." Explaining Purgatory - About Catholics -- but I don't see how that fits the verse in 1rst John really for confessed sins, which verse says we are cleansed already: ''will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."Right, there is a form of punishment/discipline that is restorative or cathartic. I see you have the second death as a cessation of existence, which would not be punishment, per se, but fitting for the situation. It's not retribution but the elimination of a creature not fitted for eternal life. Is that kind of what you're saying?
He created emotions so it's hard to say if He is subject to them or if its within His eternal Character. Anything that goes against His Character is a sin. Wrath is the consequence.Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?
It IS a "lake of fire" and the tormentors are on the King's payroll [Matthew 18:34-35], so it is a bit of both.It's interesting that some will say punishment is being further removed from the divine presence, which is suffering. Others will say it's a more direct experience of the divine presence, a presence for which one is ill suited, which is suffering
I agree. If punishment is necessary it should fit the crime, so to speak.
I noticed that you put "pay the price" in quotes, and I think that's a smart thing to do. And I think we may differ on the whole, "Wasn't his payment not sufficient" idea.Did Jesus suffer punishment for our sins, or "pay the price" through his suffering? If so, why more punishment and suffering? Was his payment not sufficient?
While He is above us:Is God subject to emotions like anger and rage, or is wrath something else?
While the RCC believes in venial and mortal sins, committing a mortal doesn't automatically draw one to hell.Maybe that's like the RCC distinction between venial and mortal sin? If you die in mortal sin you're separated forever?
What do you think about punishment?
Right, there is a form of punishment/discipline that is restorative or cathartic. I see you have the second death as a cessation of existence, which would not be punishment, per se, but fitting for the situation. It's not retribution but the elimination of a creature not fitted for eternal life. Is that kind of what you're saying?
While He is above us:
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.
Nevertheless, we read repeatedly of moments when God had justified anger, according to scripture, against evil doers.
Just like you'd be angry if some brutish criminal type started attacking your children, literally in front of you.
You love your children, so you'd feel a just, rightful anger at seeing them harmed right in front of your eyes.
Why do you doubt this? After all...aren't we created in HIS 'image'? Doesn't God get angry? Don't WE get angry?I think statements about divine anger are anthropomorphic. I doubt God is experiencing the fluctuations of emotion as we are, and subject to them like we are.
That doesn't mean God accepts evil as if it were good, but I doubt God is subject to reacting to evil as if God didn't know it was coming. God is bringing about the good God intended. My question is, how would eternal punishment be good?
Why do you doubt this? After all...aren't we created in HIS 'image'? Doesn't God get angry? Don't WE get angry?
Seriously, where do you think that *we* got emotion from?
We may not have it to the same degree that God has it, but ours is different from God's. God said several times in the OT that He's a "jealous" God. But there's a HUGE difference between human jealousy and divine jealousy.
I was looking more at that 2nd link on purgatory, and one of the summary sentences of a well written paragraph above it reads "The majority of people are neither so free from sin and attachment to sin as to gain immediate entrance into heaven, nor so attached to sin and unrepentant as to be punished forever in hell."
Right. But we still were created in HIS 'image'. So, if God cries, WE cry. If God gets jealous WE can also get jealous.We don't want to get the analogy backwards. We are created in the divine image. God is not created in ours. We resemble God in significant ways, but not all our ways or properties are the same as God's.
No. God's "emotions" are divine, while *ours* are MOSTLY immature.Emotions are powerful things. We have emotions that don't track reality so we do things we wouldn't have done if we were thinking clearly. Emotions can overpower us so that we feel in ways we can't control. Is God overpowered by strong emotions so that God is fickle or vindictive depending on God's emotional state? I think we need to be careful not to project too much of our experience on God. If God's experience were just like ours, there would be no need for the incarnation.
It all depends on one's interpretation of "unrepentant sin". If the definition involves rejection of Christ, then banishment to a Christless eternity would be totally appropriate and just. God has given the choice to all - receive Christ as Saviour and go to heaven, reject Christ and go to hell. Simple and straightforward.
Once that is settled, for the unconverted, it doesn't matter which sins the person has, because every sin they commit is unrepentant. In fact, their sinful lifestyle based on the works of the flesh is evidence that they have rejected Christ and therefore they have made their choice, although they cannot choose the consequences of their choice.
For the converted Christian, their sins have been nailed to the Cross with Christ, and so they are set free from the law of sin and death, and are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ. They have new hearts and have the Holy Spirit, therefore they hate sin and have the greatest desire to fellowship with Christ and live the type of life that will glorify Him.
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
From a human perspective neither one of these options seems "fair". I would like to think punishment is only temporary and the joy of heaven is eternal, but I'm not sure what I can base that on. I have heard fairly comforting explanations that punishment is separation from God and not eternal physical torture. However, I easily admit the nature of heaven and hell are mysteries to me.
Right. But we still were created in HIS 'image'. So, if God cries, WE cry. If God gets jealous WE can also get jealous.
The difference is, that when *we* get jealous, it's often not of 'divine' origin. Much of it has to do with our own selfishness...
...which is not who God is.
No. God's "emotions" are divine, while *ours* are MOSTLY immature.
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