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Divine punishment? Is it needed?

Is divine punishment necessary for unrepentant sin at the time of death?

  • Yes

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • No

    Votes: 7 24.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 34.5%

  • Total voters
    29

Mark Quayle

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I find annihilation more reasonable (and more palatable) than eternal condemnation, but it still presents a God who cannot save some. That's not a problem for those who hold the value of human freedom as paramount. I'm not convinced it is. I think that's partly what we are being saved from, i.e. the freedom to sin.
Annihilationism does not present a God who cannot save some. It presents a God who will not save some, and never intended to. Granted, it is more palatable to the human who doesn't understand the power of God's purity, but it ignores Scripture.

It may well be, however, a strong hint to the notion some believers hold, that the 'person' tormented in the LOF is not 'forever' as in the amount of time, as we consider the term, but a matter of KIND, or intensity, or definition of the torment. And as some believe also, that the 'person' there is no longer even worth calling human. They are what anyone is, apart from God's graces. From that point of view, one might even call them "Nothing" to get the point across, though that is a bit misleading, I think.

Annihilationsim also brings up, to my mind, the notion few care to consider, related to the extreme difference between creator and created, of the right of God, or the authority of God, over reality itself. We like to call him unjust for creating sentient creatures who he knows will end up in the LOF. But these creatures are 'nothing', apart from him. Even as lost, they are still persons, but only by his grace, not by their own intrinsic worth. (Disclaimer: I am not saying this is a good way to put the notion, nor even that I hold to this notion, but it is something to consider. Why we want to separate ourselves from him, (as the Arminian does, where he does his part and we do ours, as though the whole is better than God's work alone), is beyond me. (This is all the work of God. HE is the creator).)
 
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Der Alte

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Few scholars will tell us what it was the Jews were doing that caused God to raise up Jeremiah to condemn them.
They were going out to the 'high places' to set up Baal altars. They would have sex orgies as 'worship.' And, to enhance their sexual energies they would throw their children into the fire of a idol furnace. The screams of their children would arouse them even further while under the demonic influence of the ritual... That is why Jeremiah prophesied about 'near' utter destruction of the people!
Jeremiah's prophecy... Bible Gateway passage: Jeremiah 4 - New International Version
I read somewhere that when the Jews sacrificed their children they would beat drums, blow trumpets etc. to drown out the screams of their children.
I believe that Jeremiah 13:7-14 thoroughly debunks the false Universal salvation narrative; all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what.
 
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GenemZ

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Well, for starters, because not everyone will be saved, which implies a couple more things, like he didn't actually pay for the sins of everyone, but for the sins of those who are redeemed.

He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
1John 2:2​

The Bible says that your speculation is not correct.

God wants us to discover many treasures hidden in the Word.

Settling for our human viewpoint speculation makes for a lazy/dead spiritual life for those who deduct their answers outside of Scripture.
 
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GenemZ

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I read somewhere that when the Jews sacrificed their children they would beat drums, blow trumpets etc. to drown out the screams of their children.
I believe that Jeremiah 13:7:14 thoroughly debunks the false Universal salvation narrative; all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what.

Tophet means drum in Hebrew. The valley of Tophet is mentioned in the Bible. Later to be called Gehanna which became a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where garbage was burned all day. Jesus referred to Gehanna symbolically for the Lake of Fire.

In God's power Jeremiah defied the demonic nightmare that his people allowed themselves to get sucked into. On a smaller scale today, we see such a tendency in people in the mindless militant pro abortion herd.
 
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Der Alte

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Tophet means drum in Hebrew. The valley of Tophet is mentioned in the Bible. Later to be called Gehanna which became a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where garbage was burned all day. Jesus referred to Gehanna symbolically for the Lake of Fire.
In God's power Jeremiah defied the demonic nightmare that his people allowed themselves to get sucked into. On a smaller scale today, we see such a tendency in people in the mindless militant pro abortion herd.
"Later to be called Gehanna which became a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where garbage was burned all day" This is false information. It permeates the internet and is very handy for the "Hell no" crowd.
But when the first century Jews said "Gehenna" they did not mean the valley of Gehinnom outside Jerusalem but in every case they meant a place of unending fiery punishment.
See following research and my post #707, below, this post has too many characters.
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
= = = = =
…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, below, at least 16 centuries before Dante ever scribbled one line, in Israel among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT. As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the fifteen [15] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA]
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16


 
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GenemZ

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What rule in particular?
This rule...

Purification is necessary, but is the intent to "punish?"


Punishment is a social norm and a system of discouraging and ending behavior that is anti social. Yet, besides the punishments found in the Law? There were also certain behaviors that God did not simply punish to discourage and to end such behavior. For they were unrepentant and chose evil as being good. For those was the death penalty, not simply punishment.

Therefore not all punishment is to purify the one being punished. Instead, the death penalty (Lake of Fire) is to purify the world where the redeemed are to live.
 
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Der Alte

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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
…..Note: There is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no, zero, none such evidence.
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location … Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in
The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna – BiblePlaces.com

= = = = =

Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage




 
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Mark Quayle

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According to your framework, if God made them and does not choose them, they cannot be saved. God is not surprised by this development because is it God's choice. God knew their beginning and their end.

So they become tools, not persons that image God; they are tools for God's glory. So, yes, their existence is meaningless as far as their being persons made in the divine image is concerned. They do not fulfill their purpose as creatures bearing the divine image, united in love to God and humanity. That's their created purpose, but according to your position, that purpose is abrogated for a greater purpose, God's glory.

I think if you want to hold this position not only are some not elected to salvation, but also that same set of persons were not created in the divine image because they were never intended to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. Their only end is eternal suffering, i.e. God's glory. If they are created in the image for the purpose of being conformed to the likeness of Christ, then we're back to the God who wishes but can't. So much for divine sovereignty, I guess.
You continue to look at it from Man's POV, and, in fact, using words vaguely, such as "cannot be saved". You need to qualify that, because as you use it, it implies powerlessness on God's part. It is not a question of God's ability to save, but simply God's choice, and God's predestination, God's hidden will.

Your logic then leads you to conclude that they were not created in the same image of God, like the saved are. That is false, as it is obvious that they have squandered that potential and his justice will not allow that to continue forever. They are no different from all of us in that, except that God transformed those he has regenerated. You should look at it from God's POV, not man's. And this, I argue, without even referring to what actually it means to be made in the image of God, which none of us quite understands. It is not necessary to fully understand in order to defeat the notion you present. This life is not about the saved and the lost, but about Christ.

Sure, God is transcendent. That which transcends must be revealed if we are to understand it. We can rely on the revelation of God through the incarnate Word, right?

I don't think an argument that somehow absolves God from critique is going to be beneficial. Faith depends on a God that is faithful, good, just, and love. If we empty those of meaning by saying God can do what is unjust because it's good, the whole basis for faith and following Christ comes apart. If God is not unjust, then we should have some sense of what that means.

But we cannot fully rely on, as you have said in so many ways, not through the incarnate Word nor through the written Word, if the only reliance is on our subjective experience of it or through our limited and corrupted exegesis and use. So the written Word must govern, over and over until death.

The incarnate Word of God is altogether reliable, but he has not added to his word since the last Book was written, nor ever subtracted from his Word. So even if he tells you directly to do this or that that is true, it is not in contrast to his written Word. I hope, at least you agree with that much. Nor is it doctrine in the same sense, being understood by our limited minds, they being full of weakness and self-importance and ignorance, as what the Scripture, which remains the same after all our foolish renderings. If my theology is wrong, it is tested by Scripture, as is any of our theologies.

To put it by way of example, when God gave Paul the words to write, it was not subjective, and still it remains. What Christ tells you directly is for you, and to be dogmatic on it is to claim it is for others, the whole time being subjective, or it is word for word scripture by your claim, added, or subtracting from the written Word.

I'm not ignoring that point; I disagree as I have stated. To make a distinction between what God desires and what God wills is to make God too anthropomorphic. We are composite beings with parts and problems. We might have desires that are contrary to what we will, e.g. I desire a banana split for breakfast, but I will to eat healthy in the morning so I abstain. God, traditionally understood, is One in essence. God's attributes are all essential and perfectly united so that there is no real distinction between what God wants and what God does, it all collapses into the divine eternal essence. You want God to have a desire that cannot obtain, which brings disunity into the unity of the divine. If God wants something, it happens or God doesn't desire it.

Have you thought through this idea that God chooses those who are saved but his choice not to save others has no causal efficacy? Surely someone has an explanation for how that works. It seems to me, if the divine choice is necessary to be saved, the choice not to save is efficacious. But maybe there's a good argument out there to the contrary.

So by your assessment here, (again), when Christ, being God, cries out in agony, "If there be any other way, let this cup pass" he didn't actually want relief. Or are you saying, contrary to his unity of being that you just espoused, that only his human side wanted it? Did God want something that didn't happen?

This is, in the main, the reason why I say that sin is the only thing that ever really hurt God. But he is not diminished, but only in pain, and that, for his glory, for our sakes, and for the joy that is to come.

But where do you get the idea that I think that his choice to not save others has no causal efficacy? Besides being a badly framed question*, the truth is that everything God does has causal efficacy. And I stand behind that as strongly as I do that he is First Cause.

*The question is badly framed, in that it ignores his main cause for their mere existence and their end, and it continues to presuppose that the human line of logic is more worthy than his mere Word, and because the question as framed still insists on the narrative that he had to choose not to save someone. He did not, in the sense you want it to mean, but chose to save only some. In your claim which I agree with, concerning the 'Simplicity of God' and the 'Aseity of God', the "indivisible oneness" of God, you quickly cast it aside when you fragment his direction in creation to the notion of what I can only think you must accuse me of believing in, God's delight and capriciousness in the torment of any souls. Their ultimate end is not at all meaningless.
 
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Clare73

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That sounds like a construct used to ensure some aren't saved.
So?

Gravity sounds like a construct to ensure injury of those who step over the edge.

Show the error of my Biblical demonstration--the principle being Deuteronomy 29:29.
 
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Clare73

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I don't see why you shouldn't share it. I will readily admit there should be options on the table. I give ECT most of my attention because it needs it lol. Although I was referring to a strictly Calvinist approach, which assumes ECT, you're right that there is another possibility (at least) besides ECT or UR. I was recently rereading 2 Peter 3:7-9, which suggests another possibility: God desires that none perish, but some inevitably face the "destruction of the godless."

I find annihilation more reasonable (and more palatable) than eternal condemnation,
Your reference points ("reasonableness" of unregenerate man, 1 Corinthians 2:14)
are so contra-Biblical.
Both Jesus and the writer of Hebrews deny annihilation of man and his immortal spirit.

Jesus said Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still alive because long after they were dead, God said to Moses in the burning-bush account, that he is (not "was") the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Mark 12:26-27), to him all are alive (Luke 20:38).

Likewise, the spirits of the OT saints are in the church (Hebrews 12:22-23).

Contrary to your preference of annihilation, Jesus teaches eternal life and eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
 
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Clare73

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According to your framework, if God made them and does not choose them, they cannot be saved. God is not surprised by this development because is it God's choice. God knew their beginning and their end.
So they become tools, not persons that image God; they are tools for God's glory. So, yes, their existence is meaningless as far as their being persons made in the divine image is concerned. They do not fulfill their purpose as creatures bearing the divine image, united in love to God and humanity. That's their created purpose, but according to your position, that purpose is abrogated for a greater purpose, God's glory.
I think if you want to hold this position not only are some not elected to salvation, but also that same set of persons were not created in the divine image because they were never intended to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. Their only end is eternal suffering, i.e. God's glory. If they are created in the image for the purpose of being conformed to the likeness of Christ, then we're back to the God who wishes but can't. So much for divine sovereignty, I guess.
Sure, God is transcendent. That which transcends must be revealed if we are to understand it. We can rely on the revelation of God through the incarnate Word, right?
I don't think an argument that somehow absolves God from critique is going to be beneficial. Faith depends on a God that is faithful, good, just, and love. If we empty those of meaning by saying God can do what is unjust because it's good, the whole basis for faith and following Christ comes apart. If God is not unjust, then we should have some sense of what that means.
I'm not ignoring that point; I disagree as I have stated. To make a distinction between what God desires and what God wills is to make God too anthropomorphic.
Oh, puh-lease. . .who is it that is judging both Scripture and God by human reason, and finding both much too contrary to human reason; i.e., much too lacking in adequate anthropomorphism.

Show how God's stated principle of dealing with men in Detueronomy 29:29 is anthropomorphic.

Explain to Pharaoh why his command from God, "Let my people go," was contrary to God's decree regarding him,"I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go". . .for "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 4:21, Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:17-18).

Deal with God's revelation on the matter,
deal with your ways not being God's ways, with his thoughts not being your thoughts,
with his ways and thoughts being as high above yours as are the heavens above the earth.

Go and learn what caused Paul to break out in his doxology of Romans 11:33-36.

Spare us the drivel of finite human objection to the divine wisdom and ways!
 
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public hermit

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You continue to look at it from Man's POV, and, in fact, using words vaguely, such as "cannot be saved". You need to qualify that, because as you use it, it implies powerlessness on God's part. It is not a question of God's ability to save, but simply God's choice, and God's predestination, God's hidden will.

I know. It's God's choice. God chooses some for eternal condemnation. God can save all but doesn't.

Your logic then leads you to conclude that they were not created in the same image of God, like the saved are. That is false

Of course it is. But if you want to be consistent, you should consider taking it up. That way the purpose for humanity, union with God, is not negated by the eternally condemned whose telos does not obtain.

Of course, if you believe we are all created in the divine image for the purpose of being united with God, then perhaps even the condemned can be redeemed and God's purpose in creating humanity fulfilled. It's a possibility unless God is unable or unwilling. I take it, you assume the latter, unwilling.

That is false, as it is obvious that they have squandered that potential and his justice will not allow that to continue forever

You mean they didn't do the right works to be saved? I thought salvation was by grace not works. I don't think you're going to get God off the hook with this line of argument. God saves by grace not by works. Since God chooses who is saved, and no works can save us, God created some for eternal torment. Wow, it always comes back to that. Surprising.

You should look at it from God's POV, not man's.

If I can see things from God's point of view, then we should be able to discuss whether certain conceptions of God's justice is fitting or not.

This life is not about the saved and the lost, but about Christ

Yeah, and Christ died and rose again because God loves the world and to give us abundant life. I'm not sure it makes sense to say Christ died for humanity but the eternal condemnation of a significant portion is of no account. At least some are saved?

Again, it looks like God can't finish the job of loving the world, but you say that is God's glory. It is simply God's will to love some and then choose them for never-ending perdition. At least from God's point of view, that's love of the world.

So the written Word must govern, over and over until death

The living Word governs, the written word guides. I have said it before, but I'll repeat it, the scriptures are ambiguous on this issue. You might disagree with me, I assume you do, which is fine. We can disagree.

So even if he tells you directly to do this or that that is true, it is not in contrast to his written Word

You are confusing the scriptures with Christ. They can conflict. Should I seek retribution, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? That's in the scriptures. Or, should I listen to Christ and turn the other cheek, responding with mercy and not revenge? Matt. 5:38-39 You can't do both in the same instance.

What did Jesus say?
"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life" John 5:39-40

Notice how he is concerned that we understand that he is the one in whom life is found and the scriptures point to him, but the scriptures do not save. You might disagree with an interpretation I give and that's to be expected, but the identity between Christ and the scriptures you want to make does not exist. They are not the same thing, which should be obvious.

So by your assessment here, (again), when Christ, being God, cries out in agony, "If there be any other way, let this cup pass" he didn't actually want relief. Or are you saying, contrary to his unity of being that you just espoused, that only his human side wanted it? Did God want something that didn't happen?

You're confusing what I said about the essence of God, which holds for the Trinity, with Jesus in the garden as fully divine and fully human. You should be able to work out the difference from there.

But where do you get the idea that I think that his choice to not save others has no causal efficacy? Besides being a badly framed question*, the truth is that everything God does has causal efficacy. And I stand behind that as strongly as I do that he is First Cause.

Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you said God has desires that are not causally related their effect, i.e. God desires some to be saved but they are not because that desire is not causally related to their salvation. For those who are saved, it is.
 
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Mark Quayle

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He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only
for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
1John 2:2​

The Bible says that your speculation is not correct.

God wants us to discover many treasures hidden in the Word.

Settling for our human viewpoint speculation makes for a lazy/dead spiritual life for those who deduct their answers outside of Scripture.
1 John 2:2, and similar sounding passages, are not all the Bible says. In context, as you know, they say many other things. Even in English, we don't often mean absolutely ALL, but all of a kind, or a group. And in English, the conversation in 1 John 2:2 works —I present it from the negative: of the whole world, the sins of none are atoned for, but by the sacrifice of He Himself.

But I think you know this, and present your take as irrefutable.
 
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Clare73

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You are confusing the scriptures with Christ. They can conflict. Should I seek retribution, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? That's in the scriptures. Or, should I listen to Christ and turn the other cheek, responding with mercy and not revenge? Matt. 5:38-39
You can't do both in the same instance.
Speaking of false constructs. . .

Actually, what you should do is learn the relation of the OT to the NT, of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, of the Law to Grace.
 
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Clare73

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Go! Go! Go! GoooooAAAAA, TEAM HEAVEN !!! ... YAY !!!!

Wait a minute! Which team here is that? :ahah:
You're in worse shape than I thought! :p
 
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Clare73

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If you say so.... :scratch:

Yet, Jesus said that the Father gave him the power and authority to take back up the life he laid down. That life was his Deity life that was needed to be denied in order for the Lord to become as a man to take our place on the Cross.
Are you denying the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth?
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Jn 10:17-18​

That can be taken two ways. And, both ways would be correct!

The Lord God of Israel laid down his life as Deity to make Himself become as Jesus the man (Phlippns 2:6-8). He had the power to take it back up again, but refused to in his sufferings. That is why the Father loved him! Jesus was willing to suffer and die to please the Father. He could have escaped by taking back up his Deity power!

He also laid down his human life on the Cross while he was remaining willing to stay as a man.
 
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GenemZ

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Are you denying the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth?
No... you do not understand what I am saying....

Nor, how Jesus needed to become according to Philippians 2:6-8.


Who, though He eternally existed in the essence of God,
did not regard the being equal with God a thing-to-be-seized
onto, but emptied Himself, having taken the form of a slave,
having come in the likeness of humans. And having been found
as a man in outward-appearance, He humbled Himself, having
become obedient to the point of death— and a death of a cross!


When he decided to make himself be as a man? There was a great temptation to seize onto and not let go of all the wonderful safety and power to do anything he wanted in God's power.

Yet, he chose to deny himself of the powers of Deity's ability functioning according to his will... And, as a man he submitted to the Father's will for his purpose as a man would, and depended upon the Holy Spirit for providing the power needed to fulfill the plan.

In other words? What Jesus was, became the prototype for believers to live by. To walk in the Spirit and not allowing himself to be ignorant of God's Word. Ignorance and bias of men and women was his biggest enemy. Yet, he remained faithful to the Father's plan.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I know. It's God's choice. God chooses some for eternal condemnation. God can save all but doesn't.

Strange then, that you would have a problem with that.

Of course it is. But if you want to be consistent, you should consider taking it up. That way the purpose for humanity, union with God, is not negated by the eternally condemned whose telos does not obtain.

The purpose for humanity is God's glory. You can't gather all the details into that one envelope, as if he intends the same end for everyone.

Of course, if you believe we are all created in the divine image for the purpose of being united with God, then perhaps even the condemned can be redeemed and God's purpose in creating humanity fulfilled. It's a possibility unless God is unable or unwilling. I take it, you assume the latter, unwilling.

But I don't believe that we are all created in the divine image for the purpose of all of us being united with God.

You mean they didn't do the right works to be saved? I thought salvation was by grace not works. I don't think you're going to get God off the hook with this line of argument. God saves by grace not by works. Since God chooses who is saved, and no works can save us, God created some for eternal torment. Wow, it always comes back to that. Surprising.

Nope. I do not mean that they didn't do the right works to be saved. And their squandering of the fact of being made in the image of God is just one of their many sins.

If I can see things from God's point of view, then we should be able to discuss whether certain conceptions of God's justice is fitting or not.

Certainly, we should be able to

Yeah, and Christ died and rose again because God loves the world and to give us abundant life. I'm not sure it makes sense to say Christ died for humanity but the eternal condemnation of a significant portion is of no account. At least some are saved?

Again, it looks like God can't finish the job of loving the world, but you say that is God's glory. It is simply God's will to love some and then choose them for never-ending perdition. At least from God's point of view, that's love of the world.

You ignore what I think I already said to you, but maybe it was in response to someone else: 1 John 2:2 refers to "the whole world" because there are none to whom the principle does not apply, that only Christ Himself is the atoning sacrifice. There is no salvation in any other. What's bugging me here is that I think you already know this.

The living Word governs, the written word guides. I have said it before, but I'll repeat it, the scriptures are ambiguous on this issue. You might disagree with me, I assume you do, which is fine. We can disagree.

Ok, we disagree.

You are confusing the scriptures with Christ. They can conflict. Should I seek retribution, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? That's in the scriptures. Or, should I listen to Christ and turn the other cheek, responding with mercy and not revenge? Matt. 5:38-39 You can't do both in the same instance.

What did Jesus say?
"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf. Yet you refuse to come to me to have life" John 5:39-40

Notice how he is concerned that we understand that he is the one in whom life is found and the scriptures point to him, but the scriptures do not save. You might disagree with an interpretation I give and that's to be expected, but the identity between Christ and the scriptures you want to make does not exist. They are not the same thing, which should be obvious.

Is this the public hermit who at one time I thought was attempting to be well reasoning? Reason in the form of good hermeneutics knows better than to think Scripture requires retribution from us for what others do. But even your quote, that Christ says to turn the other cheek, is scripture. They do not contradict nor conflict.

Right back atcha! "Notice how he is concerned that we understand that he is the one in whom life is found and the scriptures point to him", yet from 1 John 2:2 you would have us believe he means that all who ever lived have had their sins atoned for.

I can't help wonder what you think the Bible means that the Word of God will remain forever. Google it, or do you need me to list references? I'm pretty sure there is a huge pun here, a play on words, at least. I'm not confused as to which is which, but, really! —Conflict between what Christ says and Scripture?

You're confusing what I said about the essence of God, which holds for the Trinity, with Jesus in the garden as fully divine and fully human. You should be able to work out the difference from there.
I certainly hope you can. I have thought well of you.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This rule...

Purification is necessary, but is the intent to "punish?"


Punishment is a social norm and a system of discouraging and ending behavior that is anti social. Yet, besides the punishments found in the Law? There were also certain behaviors that God did not simply punish to discourage and to end such behavior. For they were unrepentant and chose evil as being good. For those was the death penalty, not simply punishment.

Therefore not all punishment is to purify the one being punished. Instead, the death penalty (Lake of Fire) is to purify the world where the redeemed are to live.
I too was calling to question the motive to "punish" since this comes from a childish understanding of things.

Purification is necessary, but is being given a bath punishment?
 
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