Divine punishment? Is it needed?

[GenemZ]

The writer of the article articulates my view, not yours. Did you actually read this before you put it up?

I read it. I did not agree with all of it. But, he agrees with me where you do not agree.

It seems odd that Jesus would be called a high priest “after the order of” Melchisedec. A king was frequently referred to as the son of someone, with the intent that he gained more authority or possibly more legitimacy by being from that lineage. All of the kings in Judah were called out as being of David’s lineage, for instance. In fact, Jesus is to inherit the throne of David. But he does not inherit the priesthood of Aaron, or of Levi. He inherits the priesthood of Melchisedec… someone, apparently, to whom he is not even related. Why??​

There was no genealogy known. No beginning known. And, he faded out and no one knows when he died.

Jesus did not inherit the priesthood of Aaron or Levi because they functioned under the Law of Moses. Melchisedec preceded the Law. He interceded and was an intermediary for the people and God. Likewise, Jesus is not under the Law, and is our intermediary between us and God. He is our high priest forever... but not under the Law. Keep in mind, that was written in Hebrews to believers who were no longer supposed to be under the Law. The point was made with that in mind.

It does not have to pertain to sin. As high priest we may in heaven appear before the Lord Jesus with a request to put before the Father. Jesus will be our representative to the Father. (He already is)


Like I said... Melchisedec remains a mystery person. That always leads to speculations that reveals the heart of the one making them.

 

[GenemZ]

Doesn't God desire that all come to repentance and be saved (1Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 2:9)? If some fail to do so, God is unable to do what God wants or God just doesn't do what God wants. We have two basic options:

When God created man in His image? It meant that man will have a domain of sovereignty as God is sovereign. To do so, God granted man 'volition.'

God honors that sovereignty He granted man to the point that God will not over ride a soul's desire to reject Him. Truly, God created a life that is onto itself. For that reason, even God can not force anyone to believe. If He could? He failed to create man in His image having sovereign choice.

 

[public hermit]

When God created man in His image? It meant that man will have a domain of sovereignty as God is sovereign. To do so, God granted man 'volition.'

God honors that sovereignty He granted man to the point that God will not over ride a soul's desire to reject Him. Truly, God created a life that is onto itself. For that reason, even God can not force anyone to believe. If He could? He failed to create man in His image having sovereign choice.

Like I said, the value of the freedom to sin is greater than the value of the sinner.

 

[RickReads]

I read it. I did not agree with all of it. But, he agrees with me where you do not agree.

It seems odd that Jesus would be called a high priest “after the order of” Melchisedec. A king was frequently referred to as the son of someone, with the intent that he gained more authority or possibly more legitimacy by being from that lineage. All of the kings in Judah were called out as being of David’s lineage, for instance. In fact, Jesus is to inherit the throne of David. But he does not inherit the priesthood of Aaron, or of Levi. He inherits the priesthood of Melchisedec… someone, apparently, to whom he is not even related. Why??​

There was no genealogy known. No beginning known. And, he faded out and no one knows when he died.

Jesus did not inherit the priesthood of Aaron or Levi because they functioned under the Law of Moses. Melchisedec preceded the Law. He interceded and was an intermediary for the people and God. Likewise, Jesus is not under the Law, and is our intermediary between us and God. He is our high priest forever... but not under the Law. Keep in mind, that was written in Hebrews to believers who were no longer supposed to be under the Law. The point was made with that in mind.

It does not have to pertain to sin. As high priest we may in heaven appear before the Lord Jesus with a request to put before the Father. Jesus will be our representative to the Father. (He already is)


Like I said... Melchisedec remains a mystery person. That always leads to speculations that reveals the heart of the one making them.

Jesus inherited the covenant, He inherited it all because He is the only one who fulfilled the requirements. He is connected to the Levites through the genealogy of Mary. He always wore the tassels of a Priest which is why they called him Rabbi in several places. As ministers of the New Testament, we are all priests but not Jewish priests

 

[GenemZ]

Like I said, the value of the freedom to sin is greater than the value of the sinner.

God was determined to get *real* other lives to be with Him in eternity.

Unless He granted such sovereignty to those he created, to even choose to reject Him? He would have remained alone. Playing with dolls and puppets forever.

The very fact that some he created will be in the Lake of Fire, reveals that God succeeded in creating real lives, that are lives unto themselves. "Real others."

 

[Clare73]

What reasons are there to think the statement that God desires everyone to be saved doesn't actually mean everyone? 1 Tim. 2: 4-6. Did he not give himself as a ransom for all (v. 6)?

No. . .check out Matthew 20:28.

 

[GenemZ]

He is connected to the Levites through the genealogy of Mary. He always wore the tassels of a Priest which is why they called him Rabbi in several places.

That is excellent sounding... Tell me where I am wrong, please. It seems that all Israeli men were to wear such a tassel. Jesus was called Rabbi because it was evident that he was a teacher with disciples.

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the Lord, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God." Num 15:37-40
​

Today on Saturday morning service at the synagogue all males over 13 years were to put on and wear a "Tallis"(tallit) for the service.

All were required to do so. Not just the rabbi. I was instructed to kiss the tassels when putting it on. No explanation for doing so was given. Typical ritual without reality.

 

[public hermit]

God was determined to get *real* other lives to be with Him in eternity.

Unless He granted such sovereignty to those he created, to even choose to reject Him? He would have remained alone. Playing with dolls and puppets forever.

The very fact that some he created will be in the Lake of Fire, reveals that God succeeded in creating real lives, that are lives unto themselves. "Real others."

God created us for union with God and one another, unless you are saying God created some to be eternally separated from God. Did God create some for eternal union and others for eternal separation?

Let's use the Trinity as our template for thinking about this. Could the Son choose not to love the Father? I say not. If the Son could choose to not love the Father, then the Son would not be the Word of God since God cannot choose to not love God's own Self (divine immutability) So, it is not necessary to be free to chose not to love in order to be in the image of the divine.

It's a fallacy to assume that in order to truly love another one must be free to choose not to love. Many people love other people and they just can't help it. They couldn't choose to not love even if they wanted to. Some people choose to love, some fall in love helplessly, some choose not to love...the whole freedom to sin/not love argument needs to be rehabilitated if it's going to work. Personhood and relationship cannot depend on the freedom to sin (freely choose contrary to the divine will). Obviously, if heaven is anything, it's a realm free of sin with people and relationships.

This idea that God made us to be sovereign is odd, no offense. God created us to obey and participate in the divine nature. God will be all in all. Why would there also be a side-pit with all the sovereign creatures who succeeded in being the image of God by doing contrary to the divine will? That just looks like God's unfinished business.

 

[RickReads]

That is excellent sounding... Tell me where I am wrong, please. It seems that all Israeli men were to wear such a tassel. Jesus was called Rabbi because it was evident that he was a teacher with disciples.

The Lord said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments, with a blue cord on each tassel. You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the Lord, that you may obey them and not prostitute yourselves by chasing after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes. Then you will remember to obey all my commands and will be consecrated to your God." Num 15:37-40
​

Today on Saturday morning service at the synagogue all males over 13 years were to put on and wear a "Tallis"(tallit) for the service.

All were required to do so. Not just the rabbi. I was instructed to kiss the tassels when putting it on. No explanation for doing so was given. Typical ritual without reality.

It`s been too long since I was looking at that information. All I can tell you is that as I understand it Jesus wore tassels that were for a priest. I used to study the Jewish culture of the day because it helped me settle some things about the gospel. That was a long time ago now.

 

[GenemZ]

God created us for union with God and one another, unless you are saying God created some to be eternally separated from God. Did God create some for eternal union and others for eternal separation?

There can be no union unless there is a real life to begin with. Otherwise, its just an imagines being by God.

The only way to become a real created life is for God (through the Son) to deny Himself to his right for omniscience, and while in such a state, create all souls with nothing but the best righteous intentions.

Jesus revealed this ability to step outside of His powers of Deity in the Incarnation.

who, existing (eternally) in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.

Philippns 2:6-8

The Lord God of Israel made Himself become "as a man." No omniscience. no omnipotence... etc...

There is no reason to think that before the Incarnation that the same soul of the Lord Jehovah (the Son) could enter into such a state at will.

In entering into such a state? All souls to be created could have been created without foreknowledge of who would reject Him. That granted Him the freedom to create all without influencing them with His bias that all should love God... For that was His desire when creating all humans and angels.

 

[GenemZ]

It`s been too long since I was looking at that information. All I can tell you is that as I understand it Jesus wore tassels that were for a priest. I used to study the Jewish culture of the day because it helped me settle some things about the gospel. That was a long time ago now.

Rabbis did not have to be of the Levitical priesthood.

Being a priest was solely a birthright of the Tribe of Levi only.

Jesus was by default of the Tribe of Judah through David.

 

[public hermit]

The only way to become a real created life is for God (through the Son) to deny Himself to his right for omniscience, and while in such a state, create all souls with nothing but the best righteous intentions.

Okay, my apologies, I guess this is what you've been saying and I'm just now grasping it. God puts omniscience aside, through Christ, and thereby doesn't know what God is creating, ensuring free will.

That's risky, but apparently worth the risk of some being created for eternal suffering. Gosh, the rest are really lucky, though. Could it have been that when God regained omniscience none would be saved?

 

[GenemZ]

This idea that God made us to be sovereign is odd, no offense. God created us to obey and participate in the divine nature. God will be all in all. Why would there also be a side-pit with all the sovereign creatures who succeeded in being the image of God by doing contrary to the divine will? That just looks like God's unfinished business.

I did not say it as you just put it. I would flunk myself if I had.

I said that God gave man a "domain" for sovereignty. Not, simply made man sovereign.

One area of sovereignty is something God can not change if man so chooses. And, that area being is man's volition. For man can choose to reject God, and that is not God's desire that man do so.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Was it any different in Paul's day with Gnosticism?

One is based in God's scriptural revelation, one is based in human wisdom, just as in Paul's day.

We're both aware that there were a lot of things Paul had to address in the churches of his time, but I'm not sure that I'd equate Christian Universalism with Gnosticism. And it's not something over which I'm going to argue about with a fellow Christian sister.

Are you sure that is God's purpose anyway?

I'm pretty sure that the Lord would like to see all of us try to be a lot less factional and bashing than we typically are these days. This doesn't mean that I think we would all just shut up and not discuss anything, but it does mean that we should try a lot harder to understand one another than we actually do (and mostly fail to do, I think).

But that's my view, Clare, and I'm not going to insist that any fellow Trinitarian Christian has to see things my way for him/her to make it into eternity in Christ.

 

[GenemZ]

Okay, my apologies, I guess this is what you've been saying and I'm just now grasping it. God puts omniscience aside, through Christ, and thereby doesn't know what God is creating, ensuring free will.

That's risky, but apparently worth the risk of some being created for eternal suffering. Gosh, the rest are really lucky, though. Could it have been that when God regained omniscience none would be saved?

That is one major reason why Jesus had to suffer as He did. It was to reveal to all (men and angels) the righteous noble and royal intentions of the very Soul that conceived of them to be created. That no evil was to be found in the Soul of God. Meaning, He could not have created anyone with the intention that they go to the Lake of Fire.

God was clearing the deck with Jesus' life for anyone wishing to impugn the character of God.

The key is... "being able to create with the ability to deny himself to his right to omniscience."

When the Soul of Jesus conceived of Lucifer? The desire was for the highest and greatest capacity for being made able to love and appreciate God. Its one reason Lucifer was able to share in the light bearing ability that had been unique to God.

After all.. the first three days we see in Genesis we see light. Yet? No sun was yet provided. That light of day had to come directly from God Himself. Lucifer was made able to share in an identification with God's nature that no man has yet been able to have. But, in the Scriptures it reveals in the future in eternity, some men too will share in this aspect of God's nature to bear light.

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." Dan 12:2-3​

We have no idea what we are in for! Only concepts are allowed for at present.

 

[Clare73]

We're both aware that there were a lot of things Paul had to address in the churches of his time, but I'm not sure that I'd equate Christian Universalism with Gnosticism.

Perhaps not now, but these things have a way of taking on a life of their own, and eventually leading to denial of foundational Christian doctrines, negating even the gospel itself, and making Gnosticism look tame.

And it's not something over which I'm going to argue about with a fellow Christian sister.

I'm pretty sure that the Lord would like to see all of us try to be a lot less factional and bashing than we typically are these days. This doesn't mean that I think we would all just shut up and not discuss anything, but it does mean that we should try a lot harder to understand one another than we actually do (and mostly fail to do, I think).

But that's my view, Clare, and I'm not going to insist that any fellow Trinitarian Christian has to see things my way for him/her to make it into eternity in Christ.

 

[Hmm]

The only way to become a real created life is for God (through the Son) to deny Himself to his right for omniscience, and while in such a state, create all souls with nothing but the best righteous intentions.

The trouble with giving up omniescense temporarily is that you may not know how to to get it back again as you're no longer omniescent. A much simpler hypothesis is that God doesn't torture people.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, I was assuming her Calvinist position to bring it to its logical conclusion, i.e. God chooses, for no reason other than divine whim, to create creatures that cannot escape their God-chosen destiny to eternal torment.

It seems you've backed up a year or so with these comments. The Calvinist position is not that God does anything for mere divine whim. I could have sworn you knew that before this!

 

[public hermit]

It seems you've backed up a year or so with these comments. The Calvinist position is not that God does anything for mere divine whim. I could have sworn you knew that before this!

God chooses who is saved and who is not and the reason is not found in human will or anything in creation but God alone.

But don't get sidetracked. The result is that God desires for everyone to be saved but chooses to save some. So God chooses against God's own desire.

One of two things has to be changed. Either God does not want to save all but only those that get saved. Or, God wants to save all and eventually all -even if they have to go through hell first- are saved. Obviously, pace Calvin, God only wants to save some-limited atonement. That means the others were created for the purpose of eternal suffering and torment since that is their telos.

 

[Clare73]

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