Divine Invitation

[annier]

This to the Jew and this to the gentile is not exactly conducive to building unity, one new man. So I don't plug my ears, I listen.

How is that? Paul says circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing IN CHRIST. Apart from him, no sharing of the passover?.

 

[macher]

This to the Jew and this to the gentile is not exactly conducive to building unity, one new man. So I don't plug my ears, I listen.

That's what I meant but you can't say that when Paul speaks about circumcision it applies to me as a Jew, right?

 

[Steve Petersen]

How is that? Paul says circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing IN CHRIST. Apart from him, no sharing of the passover?.

I wish you had finished that verse (1 Cor. 7:19): For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

It is hard to imagine that Paul was unaware that circumcision was a commandment. That means he used the word in another sense, perhaps as ethnicity or covenant membership.

 

[visionary]

How is that? Paul says circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing IN CHRIST. Apart from him, no sharing of the passover?.

Too different argument answers ... What Paul is dealing with is Jewish rite of passage.. What Torah is dealing with is the laws of obedience for Passover observance.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well said. It is quite clear that the Apostles to the Jews understood themselves to be just that from the beginning. Since they were quite stunned to have Cornelius, to receive repentance unto life. There had been no understanding that Gentiles were a part of the gospel when Christ spake to them. Interestingly, I think we can find evidence that while they did not yet understand about Gentiles, they did understand they were a priesthood, and they were as kings judging the twelve tribes of Israel, a royal priesthood.

Much to think on...

 

[yedida]

Yep.. Jews who have studied Torah are at step 8 of the 10***.. and those who have no clue [be it Jew or Gentile] are at 0. Non-Jews who have accepted Yeshua as their savior at at 2-4 because they have yet to learn Torah. Those who obey the commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua are in the top 9-10 set because they have both irregardless of their blood line.

All parties need to fulfill the role of the saints of Revelation in the last days no matter whether they be of blood or not.

**** the scale is just for conversation sake and has no bearing on any group or faith.

Yep, every body begins at 0. Difference is most Jews start at 0 at birth, we gentiles have to go thru infancy usually in our adult years!! Ouchy. But we do grow and mature, just give us a minute and we'll get there

 

[annier]

I wish you had finished that verse (1 Cor. 7:19): For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

I thought I had,,, though in a bit of a paraphrase.

It is hard to imagine that Paul was unaware that circumcision was a commandment. That means he used the word in another sense, perhaps as ethnicity or covenant membership.

Covenant membership is what seems to be spoken of here. The distinctions do not divide us in Christ. That goes for the circumcision as well.
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

 

[annier]

Too different argument answers ... What Paul is dealing with is Jewish rite of passage.. What Torah is dealing with is the laws of obedience for Passover observance.

Are they not similar? Circumcision is from the fathers. The passover memorial is also from the promises made in the covenant with their fathers? So too, is unleavened bread and firsrtfruits as well as shavuot. Though maintained (not abolished) by the latter covenant (at Sinai), these were given in connection with the covenant promises made in the carnal circumcision. The natural sons of the promise still kept the circumcision in the flesh, And the heart. Gentiles in the heart

 

[mishkan]

I am wondering about your usage of the king of Israel?

I use it according to its normal definition.

How does one define the king of any nation?

Where is the concept of Melchizedek? The priest king, the king of righteousness. this is he which is King of kings, Lord of Lords? God is the God of all men, the judge of ALL THE EARTH.

You just conflated references from about three different texts.

• Melchizedek was the king of Jerusalem.
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the God of all men
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the judge of all the Earth

Or, let's try a couple of those a little differently...

• The God of Israel is, indeed, the God of all men
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the judge of all the Earth

 

[annier]

I use it according to its normal definition.

How does one define the king of any nation?



You just conflated references from about three different texts.

• Melchizedek was the king of Jerusalem.
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the God of all men
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the judge of all the Earth

Or, let's try a couple of those a little differently...

• The God of Israel is, indeed, the God of all men
• The God of Israel is, indeed, the judge of all the Earth

Where is God, your priest king?

 

[mishkan]

Where is God, your priest king?

You didn't quote anything that suggested there should be one.

You questioned my use of the term, "king of Israel". The king of Israel is the God of Israel, represented through his agent, Yeshua.

 

[yedida]

You didn't quote anything that suggested there should be one.

You questioned my use of the term, "king of Israel". The king of Israel is the God of Israel, represented through his agent, Yeshua.

 

[annier]

You didn't quote anything that suggested there should be one.

You questioned my use of the term, "king of Israel". The king of Israel is the God of Israel, represented through his agent, Yeshua.

i questioned you from the beginning of Melchizedek. A priest king.

 

[mishkan]

i questioned you from the beginning of Melchizedek. A priest king.

I don't understand your question, then. Could you please clarify what you're getting at?

Thanks.

 

[annier]

I don't understand your question, then. Could you please clarify what you're getting at?

Thanks.

sure, I will try. The kingdom of priests, which Is Israel is levitical, of the orde of Aaron. Christ as king and priest is not levitical. It just seems to me anyway, to speak of Christ as king of Israel only, does not reflect him truly as Melchizedek. King of kings lord of lords. A priest FOREVER

 

[mishkan]

sure, I will try. The kingdom of priests, which Is Israel is levitical, of the orde of Aaron. Christ as king and priest is not levitical. It just seems to me anyway, to speak of Christ as king of Israel only, does not reflect him truly as Melchizedek. King of kings lord of lords. A priest FOREVER

Oh! Are you referring to the passage in Hebrews where the author uses Melchizedek as a metaphor for Messiah?

You do realize that Melchizedek was just a human being, right? Some actually believe he was Shem, Noach's son.

You have to understand how the rabbis would sometimes manipulate the stories in the Torah in order to create clever parallels and lessons. In this case, the writer of Hebrews lifted the story of Melchizedek and Avraham out of the pages of the Torah, and created several allegorical points, like saying that Melchizedek had no origin and no end. He had parents, and he had a destiny--they just aren't recorded in the text of the Torah. Or saying that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham paid him a tithe from the booty taken in one battle. That statement is in no way literal--it is symbolic.

There is no priesthood of Melchizedek. Just one guy. And a Jebusite, at that. He wasn't even part of Israel. But that's because he pre-dates Israel. His Jebusite capital was a town we know as Jerusalem.

The one place in all the Bible--one time in the 2,000 years between Abraham and Yeshua--where Melchizedek is mentioned, he is used as a poetic parallel with David... THE King of Israel. This is where some like to bring in Tehillim/Psalm 110, where David, king of Israel and king of Jerusalem, is likened to Melchizedek. It is because Yeshua is the heir to the Davidic throne that some also compared Yeshua to Melchizedek.

So, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Messiah when you make that allegorical connection. He is the King of Israel, pure and simple, like his father, David. If you want to honor him, then honor Israel, his people.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The kingdom of priests, which Is Israel is levitical, of the orde of Aaron. Christ as king and priest is not levitical. It just seems to me anyway, to speak of Christ as king of Israel only, does not reflect him truly as Melchizedek. King of kings lord of lords. A priest FOREVER

Don't know if you were aware of it - but you'd probably be interested in some of the older discussions on the boards which've occurred - and have focused more so on the issue you brought up - as seen in the following:

• Is Yeshua the Passover?
• Order of Melchizedek
• New Covenant or Covenant?
• Will Mechizedek return? #23 and #24 )
• Who wrote the Torah? Moses or Someone Else?
• Yeshua, the New High Priest (Hebrews 8-10), and Non-Levitical Priests in Israel...

There was also extensive dialouge/conversation on the subject a couple of months ago - as seen in the thread entitled What is your personal view on Communion/Eucharist/L-rd's Supper? (more shared in #22 , #27 #30 #37 #40 #43 , #44 #45 , #46, #48 #49, #50, #53, #54 #56 and here ). It has been said that the lack of record pertaining to Melchizedek's pedigree is in relation to his priesthood only - as opposed to saying it was a Theophany - and there is a lot of merit to seeing how he is considered to be Shem because of the belief that there is a lineage of blessings from Noah to this day which gives God's people priestly authority, and Shem (Melchizedek) being n important link between Noah and Abraham (and a parallel of what the Messiah was like ) - although there are many various understandings of what the lineage of blessings really means.

As said in previous dialouge:

This is a text some call "Exaltationf Melchizedek" (the name is arbitrary) that was found among the slavonic copies of 2 Enoch, but appears to be part of a different corpus. Most scholars nowadays attribute it to 1st. century BC. Could this shed some light in the traditions concerning Melchizedek and the theology of Paul? I leave it up to you guys to evaluate. Undeniably this is an interesting piece of text:

Exaltation of Melchizedek

Chapter 1

Behold, the wife of Nir, whose name was Sopanim, being sterile and never having at any time given birth to a child by Nir -

Sopanim was in the time of her old age and in the day of her death. She conceived in her womb, but Nir the priest had not slept with her. From the day that that The Lord had appointed him to conduct the liturgy in front of the face of the people.

When Sopanim saw her pregnancy, she was ashamed and embarrassed, and she hid herself during all the days until she gave birth. Not one of the people knew about it. When 282 days had been completed, and the day of birth had begun to approach, Nir remembered his wife, he called her to himself in his house, so that he might converse with her.

Sopanim came to Nir, her husband; and, behold, she was pregnant, and the day appointed for giving birth was drawing near. Nir saw her and became very ashamed. He said to her, "What is this that you have done, O wife? Why have you disgraced me in front of the face of these people? Now, depart from me and go where you began the disgrace of your womb, so that I might not defile my hand on account of you, and sin in front of The Face of The Lord."

Sopanim spoke to her husband, Nir, saying, "O my lord! Behold, it is the time of my old age, the day of my death has arrived. I do not understand how my menopause and the barrenness of my womb have been reversed." . Nir did not believe his wife, and for the second time he said to her, "Depart from me, or else I might assault you, and commit a sin in front of the face of The Lord."

And it came to pass, when Nir had spoken to his wife, Sopanim, that Sopanim fell down at Nir's feet and died. Nir was extremely distressed and said in his heart, "Could this have happened because of my word? And now, merciful is The Eternal Lord, because my hand was not upon her."

The archangel Gabriel appeared to Nir, and said to him, "Do not think that your wife Sopanim has died because of your error, but this child, which is to be born of her is a righteous fruit, and one whom I shall receive into paradise, so that you will not be the father of a gift of God."

Nir hurried and shut the door of his house. He went to Noah, his brother, and he reported to him everything that had happened in connection with his wife. Noah hurried to the room of his brother. The appearance of his brother's wife was in death and her womb was at the time of giving birth.

Noah said to Nir, "Don't let yourself be sorrowful, Nir, my brother! For The Lord today has covered up our scandal, in that nobody from the people knows this. Now let us go quickly and bury her, and The Lord will cover up the scandal of our shame." They placed Sopanim on the bed, wrapped her around with black garments, and shut the door. They dug a grave in secret.

When they had gone out toward the grave, a child came out from the dead Sopanim and sat on the bed at her side. Noah and Nir came in to bury Sopanim and they saw the child sitting beside the dead Sopanim, wiping his clothing. Noah and Nir were very terrified with a great fear, because the child was fully developed physically, he spoke with his lips and blessed The Lord.

Noah and Nir looked at him closely, saying, "This is from The Lord, my brother." And behold the badge of priesthood was on his chest, and it was glorious in appearance. Noah said to Nir, "Behold, God is renewing the priesthood from blood related to us, just as He pleases.."

Noah and Nir hurried and washed the child, they dressed him in the garments of the priesthood, and they gave him bread to eat and he ate it. And they called him Melchizedek .

Noah and Nir lifted up the body of Sopanim, divested her of the black garments, and washed her. They clothed her in exceptionally bright garments and built a grave for her. Noah, Nir, and Melchizedek came and they buried her publicly. Noah said to his brother Nir, "Look after this child in secret until the time, because people will become treacherous in all the earth, they will begin to turn away from God, and having become totally ignorant, and in some way when they see him, they will put him to death."

Then Noah went away to his own place, and behold, great lawlessness began to become abundant over all the earth in the days of Nir. And Nir began to worry excessively about the child saying, "What will I do with him?" And stretching out his hands toward heaven, Nir called out to The Lord, saying, "How miserable it is for me, Eternal Lord, that all lawlessness has begun to become abundant over all the earth in my days! And I realize how much nearer our end is, on account of the lawlessness of the people. And now, Lord, what is the vision about this child, and what is his destiny, or what will I do for him, so that he too will not be joined with us in this destruction?"

The Lord heeded Nir and appeared to him in a night vision. And He said to him, "Behold already, Nir, the great lawlessness which has come about on the earth, which I shall not tolerate anymore. Behold, I plan not to send down a great destruction onto the earth. But, concerning the child, do not worry, Nir; because I, in a short while, will send My archangel Gabriel. And he will take the child and put him in the paradise of Edem.

He will not perish along with those who must perish. As I have revealed it, Melchizedek will be My priest to all holy priests, I will sanctify him and I will establish him so that he will be the head of the priests of the future."

Nir arose from his sleep and blessed The Lord, Who had appeared to him saying:

Blessed be The Lord, The God of my fathers,
Who has not condemned my priesthood
and the priesthood of my fathers,
because by His Word, He has created a great priest
in the womb of Sopanim, my wife.
For I have no descendants.
So let this child take the place of my descendants and become as my
own son, and You will count him in the number of your servants."


"Therefore honor him together with your servants and great priests and me your servant, Nir. And behold, Melchizedek will be the head of priests in another generation. I know that great confusion has come and in confusion this generation will come to an end, and everyone will perish, except that Noah, my brother, will be preserved for procreation. From his tribe, there will arise numerous people, and Melchizedek will become the head of priests reigning over a royal people who serve You, O Lord."

Chapter 2

It happened when the child had completed 40 days in Nir's tent, The Lord said to the archangel Gabriel, "Go down onto the earth to Nir the priest, and take the child Melchizedek, who is with him. Place him in the paradise of Edem for preservation. For the time is already approaching, and I will pour out all the water onto the earth, and everything that is on the earth will perish. And I will raise it up again, and Melchizedek will be the head of the priests in that generation." And Gabriel hurried, and came flying down when it was night, and Nir was sleeping on his bed that night. Gabriel appeared to him and said to him, "Thus says The Lord: 'Nir! Restore the child to me whom I entrusted to you.' "

Nir did not realize who was speaking to him and his heart was confused. And he said, "When the people find out about the child, then they will seize him and kill him, because the heart of these people are deceitful in front of The Face of The Lord." And he answered Gabriel and said, "The child is not with me, and I don't know who is speaking to me."

Gabriel answered him, "Do not be frightened, Nir! I am the archangel Gabriel. The Lord sent me and behold, I shall take your child today. I will go with him and I will place him in the paradise of Edem."

Nir remembered the first dream and believed it. He answered Gabriel, "Blessed be The Lord, who has sent you to me today! Now bless your servant Nir! Take the child and do to him all that has been said to you." And Gabriel took the child, Melchizedek on the same nught on his wings, and he placed him in the paradise of Edem. Nir got up in the morning, and he went into his tent and did not find the child. There was great joy and grief for Nir because had the child in place of a son.

Chapter 3

The Lord said to Noah, "Make an ark with 300 cubits in length, in width 50 cubits and in height 30 cubits. Put the entrance to the ark in its side; and make it with two stories in the middle" The Lord God opened the doors of heaven. Rain came onto the earth and all flesh died.

Noah fathered 3 sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth. He went into the ark in his six hundredth year. After the flood, he lived 350 years. He lived in all 950 years, according to The Lord our God.

To our God be Glory always, now and in the ages of the ages. AMEN.

Many among the early Christian fathers believed Melchizedek was Shem. It is believed that the blessing passed from Noah to Shem was then passed to Abraham and then on down the line etc to the followers of Jesus (given to them in Jn 20:22,23). It's not hard to trace a succession of blessings in the scriptures to demonstrate that, but it's besides the point, as the illustration about Jesus being a priest according to the order of Melchizidek is not about a physical lineage, but about a priesthood coming from outside of the Levitical lineage, as did Melchizedek's.

​

 

[annier]

Oh! Are you referring to the passage in Hebrews where the author uses Melchizedek as a metaphor for Messiah?

You do realize that Melchizedek was just a human being, right? Some actually believe he was Shem, Noach's son.

You have to understand how the rabbis would sometimes manipulate the stories in the Torah in order to create clever parallels and lessons. In this case, the writer of Hebrews lifted the story of Melchizedek and Avraham out of the pages of the Torah, and created several allegorical points, like saying that Melchizedek had no origin and no end. He had parents, and he had a destiny--they just aren't recorded in the text of the Torah. Or saying that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek because Abraham paid him a tithe from the booty taken in one battle. That statement is in no way literal--it is symbolic.

There is no priesthood of Melchizedek. Just one guy. And a Jebusite, at that. He wasn't even part of Israel. But that's because he pre-dates Israel. His Jebusite capital was a town we know as Jerusalem.

The one place in all the Bible--one time in the 2,000 years between Abraham and Yeshua--where Melchizedek is mentioned, he is used as a poetic parallel with David... THE King of Israel. This is where some like to bring in Tehillim/Psalm 110, where David, king of Israel and king of Jerusalem, is likened to Melchizedek. It is because Yeshua is the heir to the Davidic throne that some also compared Yeshua to Melchizedek.

So, I'm not sure what you're trying to say about Messiah when you make that allegorical connection. He is the King of Israel, pure and simple, like his father, David. If you want to honor him, then honor Israel, his people.

I disagree with your position above. Melchizedek is a priest and Christ is as well. You do not need to abolish fleshly commands for a metaphor. nor did Christ die for a metaphor.

 

[yedida]

I disagree with your position above. Melchizedek is a priest and Christ is as well. You do not need to abolish fleshly commands for a metaphor. nor did Christ die for a metaphor.

Try re-reading his posts without your presuppositions of Malki-Tzedek and you'll understand what he was trying to tell you - you'll see that it rings true. It's awful had to see opposing thoughts when you read them whith those old insights getting in the way - shoo them off and read without their "help"; the Hebrew Scriptures will indeed open up for you in a way you're not familiar with and you'lll see what's being told to you is true.

 

[annier]

Try re-reading his posts without your presuppositions of Malki-Tzedek and you'll understand what he was trying to tell you - you'll see that it rings true. It's awful had to see opposing thoughts when you read them whith those old insights getting in the way - shoo them off and read without their "help"; the Hebrew Scriptures will indeed open up for you in a way you're not familiar with and you'lll see what's being told to you is true.

Here is what I am saying yedida. His sacrifice was and is no metaphor.....

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

As for old presuppositional insights.......

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

Not everything the rabbis taught on this was correct. Christ told us so. Who's views are really OLD PRESUPPOSITIONS HERE?