Been reading the Divine Invitation paper by FFOZ. I think the paper/theology is misunderstood. Actually it's contradictory.
...and?
Do you not a think a link to it might help? I'm not going to rummage through the internet searching for something to which you'd like me to respond.
Interesting to consider - and going through it, I thought there were many beautiful aspects to it which were very necessary to point out. of D. T. Lancasters commentary on Galatians and other texts is very beneficial, IMHO...and I'm glad for the work they do.
Easy G (G²);62130322 said:As they said:The difference between the One-Law and Divine-Permission positions does not change our message or objectives. We are still working to bring Christianity back to her Jewish foundations and to encourage all believers to keep the Torah, including the holy days and the biblical diet. We are still committed to our mission: Proclaiming the Torah and its way of life, fully centered on Messiah, to todays people of God. The only difference is that you will no longer find us making sweeping over-generalizations that diminish the distinction between Jewish people and non-Jewish believers. You will not hear us saying that Gentile believers who do not choose a Messianic, Torah-observant, Jewish lifestyle are walking in sin.
The Difference: No longer ignoring distinction between Jewish people and Gentile believers. No longer teaching that it is a sin for Gentiles to fail to keep the commandments of circumcision, Sabbath, festivals, and Leviticus 11 dietary standards.
One, which thread are you talking on? Second, where is it the case that disagreeing with a stance someone has is to automatically be deemed "don't offend or teach right and wrong?" For people still take heat teaching that Yeshua is LORD and KING - the way to salvation - and sharing his standards is a big deal today throughout Christendom....and teaching that a Gentile was never called to be circumcised as a Jewish believer was in the OT is not a matter of avoiding "right and wrong" as much as it's a matter of teaching what it right correctly instead of having right desire and yet teaching wrong concepts - as many do in their zeal of looking throughout the OT/assuming all commands given at Sinai for the Hebrews were meant for Gentiles and basically trying to get all to do so without understanding the context - the distinctions, sub-laws and categories.[/indent]Someone asked on another thread why the President would have a messianic give an invocation. The bigger question for me is why would a real believer attend? Here is the answer.. Messianics are jumping on the ecumenist train. Don't offend. Don't teach right and wrong.
Been reading the Divine Invitation paper by FFOZ. I think the paper/theology is misunderstood. Actually it's contradictory.
I just finished reading the link concerning oral torah. I have a question that I have never seen mentioned concerning the need for oral torah, for the purpose of filling in the gaps for the written Torah, so to speak.Easy G (G²);62130322 said:Interesting to consider - and going through it, I thought there were many beautiful aspects to it which were very necessary to point out. of D. T. Lancasters commentary on Galatians and other texts is very beneficial, IMHO...and I'm glad for the work they do.
As they said:
The difference between the One-Law and Divine-Permission positions does not change our message or objectives. We are still working to bring Christianity back to her Jewish foundations and to encourage all believers to keep the Torah, including the holy days and the biblical diet. We are still committed to our mission: Proclaiming the Torah and its way of life, fully centered on Messiah, to todays people of God. The only difference is that you will no longer find us making sweeping over-generalizations that diminish the distinction between Jewish people and non-Jewish believers. You will not hear us saying that Gentile believers who do not choose a Messianic, Torah-observant, Jewish lifestyle are walking in sin.FFOZ now teaches that Gentile believers are not obligated to every commandment of Torah that a Jew is obligated to. While the broad spectrum of commandments that deal with love of neighbor and heart-devotion to God are assumed to be binding on Gentile believers throughout the New Testament, the Apostles chose to subject them to only three ritual prohibitions, and all of them were dietary: food sacrificed to idols, blood, and meat from an improperly slaughtered animal. Practically (and broadly) speaking, this exempts Gentile believers from the following categories of commandments: bris, tzitzit, tefillin, kashrut, Shabbat, moedim, and (if I am not mistaken) tohoros. As all of these commandments are tied to Jewish ethnic identity or to Temple worship (from which Gentiles are forbidden), they are widely assumed throughout the New Testament not to be binding on Gentiles (cf. Col. 2:16, 1 Cor. 7:17-24, Acts chs. 15 and 21).
The Difference: No longer ignoring distinction between Jewish people and Gentile believers. No longer teaching that it is a sin for Gentiles to fail to keep the commandments of circumcision, Sabbath, festivals, and Leviticus 11 dietary standards.
Still the Same: Still teaching Jewish and Gentile believers to keep Torah. Still encouraging Gentiles to take hold of the biblical Sabbath, festivals, and dietary laws as disciples of Messiah from the nations, grafted in to Israel.
The other side of the debate, One Law, puts forth the argument that because there is to be one law for the native and for the alien (Ex. 12:49, Lev. 24:22, etc.), Gentile believers are bound to the ritual commandments listed above. They reinterpret the writings of Paul and the other Apostles to conform to this view. Unfortunately these reinterpretations are very difficult to sustain and are not generally backed up by solid scholarship.
The biggest problem for many Messianic Fellowships (paticularly those that are Gentile dominated) is the broad willingness of certain people to condemn other people for not adhering to their specific standard. Not only that, but many are willing to condemn people for not teaching that everyone should be held to their standard and again, there is no monolithic standard, because with the jettisoning of both Christian and Rabbinic tradition, there is no precedent for interpretation.
Divine Invitation advocates would not condemn a Gentile believer taking on more than is required of him, in a
FFOZ has recently provided a 70 page document explaining their shift in position. Our pastor has already spoken of some of the concepts in this paper, and in a private meeting with my husband he encouraged us to take this journey and see where it leads. Note that FFOZ claims salvation through grace, and they state
We do not keep the Torah in order to be saved, we keep it because we are saved.
We see this new theological position as walking a fine line i.e., as a Gentile believer you arent obligated to submit to a Torah observant lifestyle like a Jewish believer, but are encouraged (expected?) to become Torah submissive to the fullest extent possible for you to achieve.
While the shift by FFOZ is promoted as better balanced, we remain very uncomfortable with the continued focus on pursuit of holiness through the Old Covenant (Sinai) law versus a focus on living the New Covenant law of love for God and for others (which we believe fulfills the heart or intent of the Old Covenant). We do not believe that the New Covenant (Christianity) is lawless as described in some Messianic forums. We fully support (and view as critical and necessary) the study of the Old Testament. We are concerned because we feel that this new theology of Divine Invitation is simply a more palatable path that ultimately leads to legalism or to neo-Ebionism.
Ironically enough, groups like FFOZ and other "Torah Observant" ministries often do not truly understand what the Torah really means. Torah is a "function word" that expresses our responsibility in light of the covenantal acts of God. As the author of the Book of Hebrews makes clear: "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well" (Heb. 7:12). The Levitical priesthood expresses the truth of the Covenant of Sinai; the priesthood of Yeshua (after the order of Malki-Tzedek) expresses the truth of the New Covenant.
For more, see
You post the FROZZ teaches this.. but do you personally believe this?Practically (and broadly) speaking, this exempts Gentile believers from the following categories of commandments: bris, tzitzit, tefillin, kashrut, Shabbat, moedim, and (if I am not mistaken) tohoros.
I have already stated what I believe - multiple times - and thus, I don't really see the logic in restating it again EVerytime the subject comes up as if there's some rule dictating one do so - and that's not the focus of the OP, anyhow:You post the FROZZ teaches this.. but do you personally believe this?
Been reading the Divine Invitation paper by FFOZ. I think the paper/theology is misunderstood. Actually it's contradictory.
I just finished reading the link concerning oral torah. I have a question that I have never seen mentioned concerning the need for oral torah, for the purpose of filling in the gaps for the written Torah, so to speak.
The urm and thummim were in the breastplate of the high priests garments. These were used by the high priest to receive oracles from God, when they needed to know his will in a matter. This being so, as well as the scriptures say....
De 17:8 If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
De 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
De 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:
Matters to difficult for the lower coutrs, were to go to the priest, and to obey his decision in the matter. Why would there be a need for oral tradition, if the high priest could consult the urim??
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Very interesting to consider.Another curious thing concerning this. Evidently the priests dfid have a book concerning their own traditions. Called the book of decrees. The Pharisees refused the decisions of this book for the fact that they had written them down, instead of by mouth. Oddly, that is exactly what the misneh itself is. Oral tradition written down. So while the Pharisees abolished this book of jurisprudence of the Sadducees (priestly sect) for having written their decrees, They themselves turned around and did the exact same with their own traditions
I agree...FFoZ's position both before and after that paper seems to be a little shallow, and not very well thought out. A lot more theological and linguistic maturity is needed for that denomination before they figure this out. I'm still waiting to see what happens.
I do think that the paper needs more development - although not in the direction of many of the folks from the One Law camp who often critique them and wrongly so, I might add, for noting Biblical distinctions. But what they have is a start.FFoZ's position both before and after that paper seems to be a little shallow, and not very well thought out. A lot more theological and linguistic maturity is needed for that denomination before they figure this out. I'm still waiting to see what happens.
Since when do we have to have an invitation to love and obey our Father?
[/indent]Someone asked on another thread why the President would have a messianic give an invocation. The bigger question for me is why would a real believer attend? Here is the answer.. Messianics are jumping on the ecumenist train. Don't offend. Don't teach right and wrong.
I understand the deal concerning the priesthood in the time of the maccabees. But what I was referring to is the Pharisaical story of the ORIGINS of their oral torah, as well as the purpose of it. They said it was given at Sinai, along with the written law. How could that be so when the priests could consult the urim and thumim?Easy G (G²);62130865 said:There's much to be said on the ways that Oral Tradition developed in the midst of a corrupted priesthood and many not believing that it could be trusted when the line of Zadok was replaced during the time of the Maccabees - with Jewish nationalism helping the people to avoid idolatry at first and later opening the door for a lot of mess. Oral tradition became something of an additional means of keeping consistency with what was felt to be truth.
Personally, some of the dynamics with going to the priests are interesting in light of what also happened with things like casting lots - which occurred throughout Jewish culture. (The apostles did pray/ask the Lord to reveal whom to chose...and it fell to Mattias. and
Very interesting to consider.