Diversity of Baptists

Firewraith · Feb 3, 2019

Hi. I'm in Melbourne, Australia, and attend Crossway Baptist Church in the suburb of Burwood East.
All Australian Baptist Churches are also independent, and have memberships up to international level.
Crossway is a member of the Baptist Union of Victoria, which is a member of Australian Baptist Ministries, which in turn is a member of the Baptist World Alliance and the Asia Pacific Baptist Federation.
Crossway is the largest Baptist church in Australia, by attendance. There are larger Baptist churches in Australia, but only in building & property size, and not the congregational numbers Crossway has.
Here's the "pre-roll" video our church uses prior to its services. Still gives me goosebumps - enjoy

Firewraith · Feb 3, 2019

I was writing responses to your statement on IBs when I realised what you meant on BU churches. Yes, you're correct with BU/ABM churches.
I've never been to an IB church but there is one around the corner from me and I noticed it's not listed on the Baptist Union of Victoria website, so I'm guessing they are "cultish" as you rightly put it.

Years ago in Brisbane, I went to a Pentacostal church called "The Potter's House". Such a scary experience, and years later I learned they have a "cult status" in some countries, including the USA I believe. So, I'm always been wary of Pentacostal churches.

Firewraith · Feb 3, 2019

Complete in Thee said:
Baptist diversity within Australia

I attend both an Independent Baptist Church and a Baptist Union Church here in Australia. Here is a little regarding the diversity within both.

Within Independent Baptist Churches in Australia some variations are as follows:

Some (maybe 10-15%) are more Reformed/Calvinistic, but the overwhelming majority are Arminian however they will ALL believe in OSAS. (95% of Baptists (both independent & union churches) in Oz believe in OSAS).

Many IB's are KJV only however a good 1/3 are not KJV only (and the number is growing). The 1/3 of IB's who are not KJV only will in most cases use the NKJV as the main Bible for preaching/teaching and for private use the congregation will use a mixture of KJV/NKJV. There is a growing movement within IB churches in Australia to adopt the New King James Version or at least have both the KJV/NKJV.

Most will have nothing to do with other Christians if they differ significantly in beliefs. ALL are non-charismatic and most are anti-ecumenical. Music is always hymns with a keyboard/piano and possibly a trumpet. Pastors must be male and deacons must be male. The majority are Dispensational, Pre-Trip. ALL are Young-Earthers.

At IB churches you MUST agree to their doctrines to become a member and if you don't than you have to agree to not speak about your different views (many will try and censor you).

Within Baptist Union Churches:

Most are a mixture Arminian/Calvinistic, however all believe in OSAS.

BU churches use modern translations (even the nkjv is considered old school and out of date).

Females can become Pastors and Deacons but that is up to the local church. Most churches have male pastors but I imagine as time goes on things will change.

When it comes to end-times they are all over the place, from Pre-Trib to Amillennialism and everything in between.

ALL are Evangelical (not fundamentalist) and most are in some form or another charismatic but to different degrees. Speaking in tongues is generally looked down upon, taken with a grain of salt or at least ignored. BU churches are ecumenical and have fellowship with other Christians (including Catholic and Liberal Christians). They generally use modern music for worships some may use a mix of CCM with hymns. Baptist Union Baptists are not as strong on extra doctrine (end-times, Calvinist/Arminian) as IB's are. In the BU creation whether young earth/Old earth/Evolution is generally not preached on as there is no offical position on it other than God created everything.

I believe Baptists in Australia are at an important cross roads in history, many IB's are becoming cultish and exclusive and at the same time some BU churches are becoming more liberal and more of a community centre with Christian values.

God bless

Complete in Thee

I was writing responses to your statement on IBs when I realised what you meant on BU churches. Yes, you're correct with BU/ABM churches.
I've never been to an IB church but there is one around the corner from me and I noticed it's not listed on the Baptist Union of Victoria website, so I'm guessing they are "cultish" as you rightly put it.

Years ago in Brisbane, I went to a Pentacostal church called "The Potter's House". Such a scary experience, and years later I learned they have a "cult status" in some countries, including the USA I believe. So, I'm always been wary of Pentacostal churches.

YeshuaFan · Feb 4, 2019

Firewraith said:
I was writing responses to your statement on IBs when I realised what you meant on BU churches. Yes, you're correct with BU/ABM churches.
I've never been to an IB church but there is one around the corner from me and I noticed it's not listed on the Baptist Union of Victoria website, so I'm guessing they are "cultish" as you rightly put it.

Years ago in Brisbane, I went to a Pentacostal church called "The Potter's House". Such a scary experience, and years later I learned they have a "cult status" in some countries, including the USA I believe. So, I'm always been wary of Pentacostal churches.

Here in the States some of the IB are also KJVO churches, and to many of us Baptist, a Charismatic Baptist church would indeed be something strange to behold!

Jonaitis · Feb 4, 2019

Spirit of Pentecost said:
As with every Christian denomination, faith, and/or movement (or any other name that may apply), the Baptist subdivision has a great many diversities.

Baptists are traditionally Calvinist, and derive their name from believer's baptism. Beyond that, however, there is often a great diversity in individual beliefs that has led to a multitude of different denominations that fall under the Baptist banner.

Southern Baptists
Independent Baptists
Free Will Baptists
Full Gospel Baptists
Holiness Baptists
Primitive Baptists
Reformed Baptists
United Baptists
American Baptists

Of course, these aren't all of them. And even for the ones I have mentioned have their own individual sects underneath.

Which kind of Baptist are you?

Confesional, Particular Baptist

YeshuaFan · Feb 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Confesional, Particular Baptist

Reformed Baptist, correct?

Jonaitis · Feb 4, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
Reformed Baptist, correct?

Yeah, I said Particular for the fact that Calvinist Baptist Churches also call themselves "Reformed."

twin1954 · Feb 5, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Yeah, I said Particular for the fact that Calvinist Baptist Churches also call themselves "Reformed."

Many do but not all. I am a Calvinistic Baptist but not Reformed. I differ with the 1689 on a few things.

twin1954 · Feb 5, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Confesional, Particular Baptist

Welcome.

YeshuaFan · Feb 6, 2019

twin1954 said:
Many do but not all. I am a Calvinistic Baptist but not Reformed. I differ with the 1689 on a few things.

I have gone the long road traveled on this, as was a Baptistcostal, then Free will, now Calvinist, who holds to the 1689 Confession, except do not see the papacy as being Antichrist, and hold to a Pre Mil viewpoint...
Where would you divert from the 1689, and would you see the area of Covenant theology where Baptist Calvinists and reformed tend to part on?

YeshuaFan · Feb 6, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Yeah, I said Particular for the fact that Calvinist Baptist Churches also call themselves "Reformed."

The Baptist Calvinists like Dr Macarthur who hold to Dispy theology would tend to call Reformed Baptists those holding to Covenant theology now....

Jonaitis · Feb 6, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
The Baptist Calvinists like Dr Macarthur who hold to Dispy theology would tend to call Reformed Baptists those holding to Covenant theology now....

I think you're right

JM · Feb 6, 2019

To be Reformed one should be covenantal in their overall interpretation of scripture, hold to the regulative principle and Calvinistic in soteriology. These three marks are found in the Reformed Confessions and lead to conclusions on baptism, ecclesiology, etc. even if those principles are not used consistently.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

YeshuaFan · Feb 6, 2019

JM said:
To be Reformed one should be covenantal in their overall interpretation of scripture, hold to the regulative principle and Calvinistic in soteriology. These three marks are found in the Reformed Confessions and lead to conclusions on baptism, ecclesiology, etc. even if those principles are not used consistently.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

The major sticking points would be in the areas of water baptism, and church government model.

Jonaitis · Feb 6, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
The major sticking points would be in the areas of water baptism, and church government model.

JM is correct on the distinctives. Merely believing in immersion of professing believers and a congregationalist polity is typical of any regular Baptist church (to use that denom as an example).

YeshuaFan · Feb 6, 2019

Jonaitis said:
JM is correct on the distinctives. Merely believing in immersion of professing believers and a congregationalist polity is typical of any regular Baptist church (to use that denom as an example).

Yes, and among us Baptists, would be found both Calvinistic and reformed ones!

twin1954 · Feb 6, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
I have gone the long road traveled on this, as was a Baptistcostal, then Free will, now Calvinist, who holds to the 1689 Confession, except do not see the papacy as being Antichrist, and hold to a Pre Mil viewpoint...
Where would you divert from the 1689, and would you see the area of Covenant theology where Baptist Calvinists and reformed tend to part on?

I differ on the law as a rule of life and on sanctification as a process. Baptists historically held to a Covenant theology that does not recognize the Covenant of Grace in different administrations but of two different covenants. We agree on progressive revelation but do not believe that the New Covenant is just a different administration of the Old.

twin1954 · Feb 6, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
The Baptist Calvinists like Dr Macarthur who hold to Dispy theology would tend to call Reformed Baptists those holding to Covenant theology now....

The only thing MacArthur holds to is the five points, other than that he is a Dispensational heretic.

twin1954 · Feb 6, 2019

YeshuaFan said:
The major sticking points would be in the areas of water baptism, and church government model.

No the major sticking point is the difference in their Covenant theology.

Jonaitis · Feb 6, 2019

twin1954 said:
The only thing MacArthur holds to is the five points, other than that he is a Dispensational heretic.

I wouldn't call him a heretic, that's a bit far.

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