Disprove Calvinist Soteriology

[ToBeLoved]

The natural man will not choose Christ. They have no desire. They are at enmity with Him. So before they can freely choose Christ, something must happen to them. It's called regeneration.

That is the Calvinist's position. Most don't support Calvinsm and reject it's theology.

 

[ToBeLoved]

They are at enmity with Him. So before they can freely choose Christ, something must happen to them.

And ... Christ creates in us a new creature when we are saved, that natural man is gone in a sense.

What happens to them is people realize that they can never atone for their own sin and become right with God without Christ. That is why He is our Savior. He saves us from our sin, which separates us from God.

We realize we need Him and that we believe. That is faith.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That is the Calvinist's position. Most don't support Calvinsm and reject it's theology.

Most don't accept Christ, and reject Him as Messiah. Are they right?

You are guilty of an ad populum fallacy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Most don't accept Christ, and reject Him as Messiah. Are they right?

You are guilty of an ad populum fallacy.

Comparing someone in Christ to someone who doesn't have Christ on a thread about Christian, Biblical theology is a little odd. That is a terrible comparison given that this is a theological discussion.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Comparing someone in Christ to someone who doesn't have Christ on a thread about Christian, Biblical theology is a little odd. That is a terrible comparison given that this is a theological discussion.

I have no idea what your point is.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I have no idea what your point is.

That I am guilty of no fallicy. Simple. because you made a mute point because the two people groups cannot be compared on a spiritual level. To even please God one must be in Christ and not an enemy of Christ.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That I am guilty of no fallicy. Simple. because you made a mute point because the two people groups cannot be compared on a spiritual level. To even please God one must be in Christ and not an enemy of Christ.

You said, "Most don't support Calvinsm and reject it's theology." Which makes you 100% guilty of the ad populum fallacy.

The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truthfulness.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You said, "Most don't support Calvinsm and reject it's theology." Which makes you 100% guilty of the ad populum fallacy.

The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truthfulness.

Whatever. My point was that Calvinism is not considered theologically sound by the mainstream of Christianity. If you cannot understand that as a point, then maybe we need to leave it there and not discuss it.

I am here to talk theology not some fallacy thing. So if you would like to discuss that, please do so with someone else.

Now if you would like to talk about Calvinism or any of the 5 points of Calvinism, that would be a discussion I'd have.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My point was that Calvinism is not considered theologically sound by the mainstream of Christianity.

Much of "mainstream Christianity" is "marring" homosexuals, so I don't tend to care too much about what everyone else is doing. As my mother often asked me, "If everyone else jumped off of a bridge, would you?"

The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truthfulness. If you can't understand that, then I will be unable to debate Calvinism with you, and that would be a real shame as I would really like to.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Much of "mainstream Christianity" is "marring" homosexuals, so I don't tend to care too much about what everyone else is doing. As my mother often asked me, "If everyone else jumps off of a bridge, would you?"

The number of people who believe a claim is irrelevant to its truthfulness. If you can't understand that, then I will be unable to debate Calvinism with you, and that would be a real shame as I would really like to.

It is not irrelevant. Because theology is the interpretation of God's Word. I didn't say that was a claim to it's truthfulness, I said that most people do not see that God's Word is saying what Calvinist say that it says.

In theology, how people read the text and understand it, particularly pastor's knowledgeable in God's Word is very relevant.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is not irrelevant. Because theology is the interpretation of God's Word. I didn't say that was a claim to it's truthfulness, I said that most people do not see that God's Word is saying what Calvinist say that it says.

In theology, how people read the text and understand it, particularly pastor's knowledgeable in God's Word is very relevant.

Truth is truth even if no one believes it.

I'm out.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Truth is truth even if no one believes it.

I'm out.

I'm glad your out. You sure know how to kick a dead horse.

Or maybe you just can't see past your own opinion to thoughtfully understand anyone else or maybe you just don't understand theology or how to talk about it.

 

[Hammster]

That is the Calvinist's position. Most don't support Calvinsm and reject it's theology.

I know it's the Calvinist position. All I'm asking is that you don't misrepresent it and make it into something it isn't.

 

[Hammster]

And ... Christ creates in us a new creature when we are saved, that natural man is gone in a sense.

What happens to them is people realize that they can never atone for their own sin and become right with God without Christ. That is why He is our Savior. He saves us from our sin, which separates us from God.

We realize we need Him and that we believe. That is faith.

Actually, that's not what happens. The natural man can do nothing that pleases God. So he can't just decide to do something pleasing, and then get rewarded with salvation. There's no scripture to back that up.

 

[Hammster]

To even please God one must be in Christ and not an enemy of Christ.

That's the Reformed, and biblical position. So it's obviously not what you meant.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm glad your out. You sure know how to kick a dead horse.

Or maybe you just can't see past your own opinion to thoughtfully understand anyone else or maybe you just don't understand theology or how to talk about it.

Maybe.

 

[sdowney717]

Other supporting verses on the elect of God. The elect are chosen in Christ from the foundation of the earth. The certainty of God's saving His people to the uttermost those who come to Him is firmly established abundantly by scripture. The elect were given by God to His Son, the Lord knows those who are His and none can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit and God dealt, has given to each one in His body the measure of their faith, Paul making the comment for none to think more highly of himself than he ought since faith is God's gift, salvation is not of yourself lest any should boast.

God only gives faith to His people, the everyone among you points this out.

Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

His saints will be faithful, all others will fall away.

John 6
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Paul here is boldly proclaiming these truths in his letter to the saints-believers.

Ephesians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


Revelation 17:7-8New King James Version (NKJV)
The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.