Disprove Calvinist Soteriology

[JLB777]

Well, sure. And this simply means that those who will be saved...will be saved. God alone knows with 100% certainty who they are-whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose aren't.

Yes, however we must make clear these things that pertain to salvation, as there are many false teachers right here on this forum who are leading people astray, teaching such things as:

• You don't need to continue to believe to be saved.
• You can depart from the faith, and renounce Jesus Christ to avoid persecution and still be saved.
• You can become a homosexual, and still be saved.
• You can live in open sin as a liar or murderer or adulterer,,, and never repent of these wicked things and still be saved.
• A Christian who takes the mark of the beast, will still be saved.

These are just a few of the things being taught by false teachers here on this Forum and many others.


Please beware.


JLB

 

[sdowney717]

Hi F, I believe that there are NONE (save One) who deserve eternal life on the basis of their own merits.

I also believe that many will receive exactly what they deserve (justice), and that others, due to the gracious choice of God to save a remnant 1) so that all will not be lost and 2) so that His Son will have His promised "bride", will receive what they do not deserve (mercy).

Exactly!, as 1 Peter 1 says,,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The power of God shown in us is that our faith is His gift to us.
It is impossible for the elect to be lost, as all the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ, and all those who come to Christ he will NEVER cast out.

 

[sdowney717]

Yes, however we must make clear these things that pertain to salvation, as there are many false teachers right here on this forum who are leading people astray, teaching such things as:

• You don't need to continue to believe to be saved.
• You can depart from the faith, and renounce Jesus Christ to avoid persecution and still be saved.
• You can become a homosexual, and still be saved.
• You can live in open sin as a liar or murderer or adulterer,,, and never repent of these wicked things and still be saved.
• A Christian who takes the mark of the beast, will still be saved.

These are just a few of the things being taught by false teachers here on this Forum and many others.


Please beware.


JLB

Yes, well, the elect of God wont do those things.
But if they did, God would grant them repentance unto life.
God does never reject those He has foreknown as His people.
He did not back then and does not today, most certainly not!
Paul makes the point not all Israel are of Israel, and this same principle is also true of the gentiles.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, so that Christ is the firstborn of many brothers who make up the family of God...and for the elect it is impossible for them to be lost.

Romans 11:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.


Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mark 13:22
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Luke 18:7
And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 9:11
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 11:5
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11:28
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

Colossians 3:12
[ Character of the New Man ] Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

1 Thessalonians 1:4
knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
[ Greeting ] Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

1 Peter 1:1
[ Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims ] Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

1 Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

2 John 1:1
[ Greeting the Elect Lady ] The Elder, To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,

2 John 1:13
The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen.

 

[JLB777]

Yes, well, the elect of God wont do those things.
But if they did, God would grant them repentance unto life.
God does never reject those He has foreknown as His people.
He did not back then and does not today, most certainly not!
Paul makes the point not all Israel are of Israel, and this same principle is also true of the gentiles.
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, so that Christ is the firstborn of many brothers who make up the family of God...and for the elect it is impossible for them to be lost.

Romans 11:1-3New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Let's keep reading -

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23

• Because of unbelief they were broken off
• if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The Elect were broken off from Covenant Relationship with Him.

We also can indeed be broken off from Covenant Relationship with Him, if we don't continue in our faith; Believing.



JLB

 

[JLB777]

Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Those who continue to believe to the end will be saved.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:11-14

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.

Luke says it this way:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

 

[ToBeLoved]

..

 

[JLB777]

Who are the Elect in this context?

You quoted Romans 11, claiming the elect can never become lost.

The Jews.

There is the same warning to the Church who has been "grafted into" the Covenant Relationship as the Jews.

Same warning.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


Can you see who this warning is to?

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You quoted Romans 11, claiming the elect can never become lost.

I did? Which post #. I could have sworn I just entered this thread.

 

[sdowney717]

Those who continue to believe to the end will be saved.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:11-14

• But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

• but endures only for a while.

Luke says it this way:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

JLB

In the parable of the sower, the only ones saved are those that bear fruit to God, some 30, 60, 100 fold.
None of the others bore good fruit.
If you do not bear good fruit, your going to be thrown into the fire.

 

[sdowney717]

You quoted Romans 11, claiming the elect can never become lost.

The Jews.

There is the same warning to the Church who has been "grafted into" the Covenant Relationship as the Jews.

Same warning.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


Can you see who this warning is to?

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

Read it in context, they were enemies of the gospel being unbelievers in Christ but regarding election beloved because of the sake of their fathers. But they were not ELECT themselves, just for the sake of their fathers, because the ELECT obtain salvation while the rest are blinded by God.

Romans 11

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Romans 11
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

And Romans 11 , in the later half is referring to people groups, jew versus gentile, not individual salvation. The jews as a group being cut off so that salvation could go to the gentiles, but not all gentiles are saved and neither are all Jews, EXCEPT at the end when all Israel will be saved, that is those who are 'of the true Israel of God.'

 

[ToBeLoved]

You quoted Romans 11, claiming the elect can never become lost.

The Jews.

There is the same warning to the Church who has been "grafted into" the Covenant Relationship as the Jews.

Same warning.

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23


Can you see who this warning is to?

For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

In never said that, but I agree with it.

You must have me confused with someone else.

But read verse 23 above in your verses. The unbelief they have is that Jesus is not the Messiah and that the Old Covenant law is still valid.

 

[JLB777]

because the ELECT obtain salvation while the rest are blinded by God.

Please post the scripture that says the elect obtain salvation.

I think you have election for purpose confused with election for salvation.

There is no such thing as election for salvation.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[JLB777]

The jews as a group being cut off so that salvation could go to the gentiles,

So you are teaching us Peter and Matthew and John and Paul and the 120 with their wives and children and the 3000 on the day of Pentecost, and on and on and on, were cut off.

These were all Jews.

Here is who receives eternal life - For there is no partiality with God.

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:6-11

• glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

 

[sdowney717]

Please post the scripture that says the elect obtain salvation.

I think you have election for purpose confused with election for salvation.

There is no such thing as election for salvation.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Only God's elect obtain salvation.
The elect were prior chosen of God to be consecrated, sanctified, to be made obedient to Jesus Christ, and to be sprinkled with His blood, which means only the elect will be forgiven their sins, will have the atonement, and be made perfect.

Therefore the elect obtain salvation, and the rest are blinded.

1 Peter 1:1-3 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Peter, an apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Paul labors only for the elect as He knows it is for them that Christ died and only them that will be saved.

2 Timothy 2:10
English Standard Version
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Even the elect must be saved as all men have sinned.

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 4:11-12Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

11 This [Jesus] is the Stone which was despised and rejected by you, the builders, but which has become the Head of the corner [the Cornerstone].
12 And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved.

Scripture uses MUST, not CAN be saved. And the lost sheep of Christ MUST be saved, as He will not lose any of those the Father has given to Him. All that the Father gives to Christ WILL come to Christ, meaning HE GIVES THEM TO CHRIST BEFORE THEY ARE SAVED AS CHRIST"S OWN ELECT PEOPLE>, they are a chosen nation who have received mercy from God to be saved.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6, Christ teaches us who are His elect. They have been prior chosen of God to be consecrated, by the Spirit, to be made obedient to Christ and to be sprinkled with His blood, those are His elect.

37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].

Christ says they WILL come to Him and be saved, God watches over His word to perform it.

 

[sdowney717]

John 6, Christ tells us He knows who does not believe in Him.
Those who do not believe, God has not granted for them or enabled them to know the TRUTH and come to Christ. So their minds will remain blinded by Satan, as they are not His very own elect..
So in summary only the elect obtain salvation.

64 But [still] some of you fail to believe and trust and have faith. For Jesus knew from the first who did not believe and had no faith and who would betray Him and be false to Him.

65 And He said, This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him [unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.

 

[fhansen]

The elect never lose their election; their names are written in the Book of Life. But true believers can lose faith and fall away; they can even 'be enlightened and taste of the heavenly gift', Heb 6:4, but still fall away. But this only means that they didn't persevere to the end, because they were not among the elect, whose names God, alone, knows with certainty.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Only God's elect obtain salvation.
The elect were prior chosen of God to be consecrated, sanctified, to be made obedient to Jesus Christ, and to be sprinkled with His blood, which means only the elect will be forgiven their sins, will have the atonement, and be made perfect.

Therefore the elect obtain salvation, and the rest are blinded.

1 Peter 1:1-3 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
1 Peter, an apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].

3 Praised (honored, blessed) be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah)! By His boundless mercy we have been born again to an ever-living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Paul labors only for the elect as He knows it is for them that Christ died and only them that will be saved.

2 Timothy 2:10
English Standard Version
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Even the elect must be saved as all men have sinned.

Really though, if the elect have always been elect, than salvation is a mute point. If the Holy Spirit zaps the elect, before faith, against their will, then they (elect) have not chosen God, the Holy Spirit has chosen to zap them into belief.

So under Calvinism you haven't faith in God at all that wasn't given to you. You have zapped faith, robotic faith.

We have real, unzapped faith. We chose and desired Christ. Needed Christ. Wanted Christ.

 

[Hammster]

Really though, if the elect have always been elect, than salvation is a mute point. If the Holy Spirit zaps the elect, before faith, against their will, then they (elect) have not chosen God, the Holy Spirit has chosen to zap them into belief.

So under Calvinism you haven't faith in God at all that wasn't given to you. You have zapped faith, robotic faith.

We have real, unzapped faith. We chose and desired Christ. Needed Christ. Wanted Christ.

Deep sigh.

The natural man will not choose Christ. They have no desire. They are at enmity with Him. So before they can freely choose Christ, something must happen to them. It's called regeneration. They get a new heart. It's with this new heart that they freely choose Christ. They have real faith.

So please stop with the straw man arguments that make stuff up. It's not helpful.