Disprove Calvinist Soteriology

[St_Worm2]

...do you believe baby's that die go to heaven?

Yes, though the Bible doesn't tell us directly, one way or the other (as Hammster just alluded to). Here's part of the reason why I believe this is true, Biblically speaking.

Babies are conceived with a fallen nature (Psalms 51:5) thanks to the disobedience of our progenitors, but God doesn't judge our "nature", He judges our thoughts and our actions based upon our personal knowledge and understanding of the Law (see Romans 2:12-16).

However, babies have no personal knowledge or understanding of the Law, be that the Law of Moses, or simply the Law that is written in their hearts by God, so there is no basis upon which they may be judged and condemned.

God is sovereign over all, and all who die at such an early age are elect (and they are Heaven-bound as a result, just like they would have been had they lived to the age of accountability).

Yours in Christ,
David

Matthew 10
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. ​

 

[fhansen]

I think they do, but it's based more on what I think of the character of God than anything biblical.

I agree with this.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Rich, interestingly, one of the big debates that Calvin had with Servetus involved this very subject. Servetus (who held the "free will" .. or what we might refer to today as the Arminian .. position) argued that babies who die are all bound for Hell because they were not able to "believe". This horrified Calvin, who held that toddlers, babies and those who are aborted all go to Heaven (for the reasons I just articulated in my last post .. go here: Disprove Calvinist Soteriology).

So what position do you hold concerning the death of babies, and on what basis do you believe what you do?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[fhansen]

Hi Rich, interestingly, one of the big debates that Calvin had with Servetus involved this very subject. Servetus (who held the "free will" .. or what we might refer to today as the Arminian .. position) argued that babies who die are all bound for Hell because they were not able to "believe". This horrified Calvin, who held that toddlers, babies and those who are aborted all go to Heaven (for the reasons I just articulated in my last post .. go here: Disprove Calvinist Soteriology).

So what position do you hold concerning the death of babies, and on what basis do you believe what you do?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

But really, is that any more horrific than the non-elect/reprobate being predestined to eternal torment in hell? Why couldn't a baby simply be a reprobate according to that theology, since, as they would hold I think, free will has nothing to do with ones belief or non-belief anyway?

 

[St_Worm2]

But really, is that any more horrific than the non-elect/reprobate being predestined to eternal torment in hell? Why couldn't a baby simply be a reprobate according to that theology, since, as they would hold I think, free will has nothing to do with ones belief or non-belief anyway?

Hi F, do you really see no difference between God condemning a baby to Hell (who is completely innocent of wrongdoing), and an older, non-believer, who is personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed?

Also, do you believe God is sovereign over His creation (by which I mean that nothing happens apart from His ordination*)?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David

*(God's ordination includes that which He causes to happen, as well that which He allows to happen)
.

 

[fhansen]

Hi F, do you really see no difference between God condemning a baby to Hell (who is completely innocent of wrongdoing), and an older, non-believer, who is personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed?

Also, do you believe God is sovereign over His creation (by which I mean that nothing happens apart from His ordination*)?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David

*(God's ordination includes that which He causes to happen, as well that which He allows to happen)
.

I thought Calvin taught that all humans were deserving of hell. And if the 'older, non-believer, who is personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed' had no choice but to sin, is he really any more guilty than the baby?

 

[fhansen]

*(God's ordination includes that which He causes to happen, as well that which He allows to happen)

.

But does God ordain against His own will? Does God want any to perish? Did God want Adam to eat of the fruit that He commanded Him not to eat of? IOW, is it possible for God's will not to be done? And if not, why are we told to pray, "Thy will be done"?

I certainly agree that God is surprised by exactly nothing. Certainly He created knowing the Fall would occur, and already planned accordingly. But if He ordained that the older non-believer should be personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed, then the real guilt should be upon God, shouldn't it? And there are plenty of believers that are far from pristine in their behavior, BTW, if that’s to be the criteria for their justice.

 

[St_Worm2]

I thought Calvin taught that all humans were deserving of hell. And if the 'older, non-believer, who is personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed' had no choice but to sin, is he really any more guilty than the baby?

Do you believe there are any humans (save Christ Himself) who "deserve" Heaven?

 

[St_Worm2]

But does God ordain against His own will?

It is not God's "will" that anyone should sin, ever, yet all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God ~Rom 3:23.

As I stated earlier, God's ordination means that He causes certain things to happen, AND that He permits or allows other things to happen. Just to be clear, His permission of human sin does not mean that it has His moral approval however, but if He did not allow (ordain) it, and He forced us to obey instead, our wills would not be free.

You might also say that He gives us the power/ability to transgress His Laws, but that doesn't mean we have the right to do so. He is sovereign over all and His will stands, but His sovereign will is worked out in concert with the sinful choices that He both allows, and that He knows we will make.

Yours and His,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

...if He ordained that the older non-believer should be personally guilty of sinning in both thought and deed, then the real guilt should be upon God, shouldn't it?

If God "caused" or "forced" someone to sin against his/her will, then yes, the guilt would obviously belong to God. But we know that He doesn't do that, in fact, He doesn't even "tempt" us to sin .. James 1:13. Rather, He manages/restrains the severity of our temptations so that they are never more than we can individually bear, and He also provides the way of escape from them so that we have the ability to endure the temptation and choose not to sin .. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Again, "ordination" does not necessarily mean that God always "causes" whatever happens to occur, it can also mean that He "allows" certain things to occur, which is always the case when we choose to disobey Him and sin.

 

[fhansen]

Do you believe there are any humans (save Christ Himself) who "deserve" Heaven?

Well, we don't even "deserve" existence for that matter; everything's a gift in the end. But I certainly don't believe that every non-believer is so bad as to deserve eternal torment either, which surely renders the gift of existence not so very attractive. And apparently you believe similarly about infants, that they don't deserve eternal torment either.

 

[fhansen]

If God "caused" or "forced" someone to sin against his/her will, then yes, the guilt would obviously belong to God. But we know that He doesn't do that, in fact, He doesn't even "tempt" us to sin .. James 1:13. Rather, He manages/restrains the severity of our temptations so that they are never more than we can individually bear, and He also provides the way of escape from them so that we have the ability to endure the temptation and choose not to sin .. 1 Corinthians 10:13

Again, "ordination" does not necessarily mean that God always "causes" whatever happens to occur, it can also mean that He "allows" certain things to occur, which is always the case when we choose to disobey Him and sin.

That works for me, seeing as you didn't eliminate man's will from the equation. Here's a teaching I'm familiar with:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

 

[St_Worm2]

Well, we don't even "deserve" existence for that matter; everything's a gift in the end. But I certainly don't believe that every non-believer is so bad as to deserve eternal torment either, which surely renders the gift of existence not so very attractive. And apparently you believe similarly about infants, that they don't deserve eternal torment either.

Hi F, I believe that there are NONE (save One) who deserve eternal life on the basis of their own merits.

I also believe that many will receive exactly what they deserve (justice), and that others, due to the gracious choice of God to save a remnant 1) so that all will not be lost and 2) so that His Son will have His promised "bride", will receive what they do not deserve (mercy).

 

[St_Worm2]

That works for me, seeing as you didn't eliminate man's will from the equation. Here's a teaching I'm familiar with:

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

I believe this is from the CCC, yes? Part of it I agree with, and part of it I do not, beginning with the fact that it teaches that we are not truly, "dead in our trespasses and sins" .. Ephesians 2:1-3.

I would be interested in discussing this further but, unfortunately, I'll have to take this up with you again tomorrow (Dv), as it is quite late here ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But I certainly don't believe that every non-believer is so bad as to deserve eternal torment either,

Then you do not understand sin, nor the holiness of God.

 

[JLB777]

. With ‘no condemnation in Christ’, do we enter heaven regardless of our behavior, and regardless of our state of being-the state of our hearts vis a vis true justice or righteousness?

AS you can plainly read, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


For those who choose to be a slave to sin, by presenting themselves as it's slave, will receive the wages of sin which is death; perish in eternal damnation.

Those who choose to become a slave to God and His righteousness, that springs forth from the Spirit of God within, will live; have everlasting life.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19

Jesus came to reconcile us with the Father when the time was ripe so that this relationship could resume, as was always meant to be the case, and He can then do a work of transforming us into His image.

Yes, amen. We are reconciled to the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ.

We remain reconciled to the Father, as we continue in the faith.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith...

It is by faith, we come to be "in Christ", in which we must remain "in Him", in order to remain reconciled to God, by which we receive eternal life, just as a branch receives "life" from the vine to which it is connected.

If the branch becomes "disconnected" from the vine from which it receives it's life, then it has lost it's ability to be sustained with life from then vine, and it withers, unable to have life any longer.


Jesus illustrates this all important principle:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
• If anyone does not abide in Me he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

We must remain in Him, through our faith, continuing to believe He is Lord and Christ; Our Savior who is able to take away our sin.


JLB

 

[fhansen]

AS you can plainly read, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


For those who choose to be a slave to sin, by presenting themselves as it's slave, will receive the wages of sin which is death; perish in eternal damnation.

Those who choose to become a slave to God and His righteousness, that springs forth from the Spirit of God within, will live; have everlasting life.


16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:16

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. Romans 6:19




Yes, amen. We are reconciled to the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ.

We remain reconciled to the Father, as we continue in the faith.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

• yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith...

It is by faith, we come to be "in Christ", in which we must remain "in Him", in order to remain reconciled to God, by which we receive eternal life, just as a branch receives "life" from the vine to which it is connected.

If the branch becomes "disconnected" from the vine from which it receives it's life, then it has lost it's ability to be sustained with life from then vine, and it withers, unable to have life any longer.


Jesus illustrates this all important principle:

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;
• If anyone does not abide in Me he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

We must remain in Him, through our faith, continuing to believe He is Lord and Christ; Our Savior who is able to take away our sin.


JLB

And this is all fine with me as well. My main objection would be to the belief that we can know with certainty who will persevere and who will not, who will remain faithful, walking in the Spirit, and who will not.

 

[fhansen]

Then you do not understand sin, nor the holiness of God.

I wouldn't go that far with you; I'd just say your understanding might be a bit distorted.

 

[JLB777]

And this is all fine with me as well. My main objection would be to the belief that we can know with certainty who will persevere and who will not, who will remain faithful, walking in the Spirit, and who will not.

Those who persevere to end are the ones who will be saved on that Day.

Those who continue in the faith, to the end are the ones who will be saved on that Day.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:10-14

• he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Peter says it this way:

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

JLB

 

[fhansen]

Those who persevere to end are the ones who will be saved on that Day.

Those who continue in the faith, to the end are the ones who will be saved on that Day.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matthew 24:10-14

• he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Peter says it this way:

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.
1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls

JLB

Well, sure. And this simply means that those who will be saved...will be saved. God alone knows with 100% certainty who they are-whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose aren't.