Dispensationalism in Church History

[Reformed Baptist]

I just posted a small article based in church history for my friends, the orthodox to read...no question.

 

[Maximus]

I just posted a small article based in church history for my fellow orthodox to read...no question.

"Fellow orthodox?"

Dispensationalism is NOT orthodox. It is heterodox, the 19th-century invention of John Nelson Darby.

The Orthodox Church is the true Church, the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. At the second of those councils, at Constantinople in A.D. 381, the Church condemned Chiliasm, the belief in a literal 1,000-year millenium. That condemnation was reiterated at the Council of Ephesus in 431, when Chiliasm was called "superstition."

Part of being Orthodox is adherence to the decisions of the great historic councils of the Church.

Dispensationalism is a fantastic, convoluted system that does not make sense.

It was unknown among early Christians, even among those who believed in a literal earthly millenium.

 

[TWells]

Ryrie calls “the first and purest centuries” of church history.

Really? hmm...makes me wonder why he didnt share the early Church's view concerning the Eucharist or the Atonement.

 

[Reformed Baptist]

Darby is one in a long line of folks that believe in dispensationalism, Justin Martyr was an early example.

 

[TWells]

Citing Chiliastic beliefs among a few of the Church Fathers hardly supports claiming the Early Church was dispensational. Ryrie is pretty well known for his rather selective view of the Church's early eschatological beliefs. His Basis for the Pre Millienial Faith is a textbook for the art of proof texting.

 

[Oblio]

Reformed Baptist,

I am assuming that the OP was posted not to troll or to offend the beliefs of Orthodox Christians but to get our opinion of the heterodox doctrine of dispensationalism. IOW, the implied question is What do you think of this ?. You may ask questions to help understand the Orthodox position regarding dispensationalism, but please do not debate in this forum. Thanks

 

[Reader Nilus]

It is true some of the early fathers believed in Chiliastic theories, but that was personal opinions before the Councils condemned them. Also they had nothing close to the science fiction of Darby's 3 comings of Christ. To seriously consider Darby and C I Scofield's system is to gut the Gospel, as one of its cornerstones is that Our Lord's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount applies not to Christians but to Jews saved in the so called tribulation after the church has been raptured!
We Orthodox know the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes apply to us and that is the life we strive to attain. In all seriousness the dispensationalist theories of Darby, Scofield, Lindsey and others is pure escapism. We Orthodox have known and know tribulation. Why would any Christian want to escape martyrdom?
Jeff the Finn

 

[Reformed Baptist]

I left the Greek Orthodox church 2 years ago, so I do understand you point of view. I just thought I would post an article, not for debate but to draw on your thoughts.

 

[Oblio]

Fair enough. Thanks for understanding.

 

[MariaRegina]

Not to engage you in debate, but why did you leave the Orthodox Church?

I've known a lot of Orthodox who have come back to Orthodoxy once they understand it because as children they received very little instruction in the Holy Faith. It is interesting that the Protestant experience made them better Orthodox Christians because now they understand the importance of the Holy Bible and most importantly, that it was the Orthodox Church who preserved the Holy Bible and canonized it so that what we read today is what the Orthodox Church gave us back in the 4th century.

Don't you miss Holy Communion?

 

[Reformed Baptist]

 

[MariaRegina]

A little, yes. I miss the incense, the Icons the Greek chants. I still have Icons and burn incense but I lost faith in the Traditions of the Church and the Church councils. I began to study the Bible without reading the Church Fathers and found a very different Christianity then I found in Orthodoxy. So different in fact that I left the Church.

RB

I wish you would read Becoming Orthodox by Father Peter Gilquist. He was a member of the Campus Crusade for Christ and was part of 2000 evangelical protestants who made the trip to Orthodoxy in 1987. It's a fascinating read. In that book some of the following topics are covered:

Our Divine Liturgy is heavenly worship. Have you read Revelations? This Holy Book of the New Testament actually describes the Divine Liturgy complete with incense. The Icons we have in our church represent the "cloud of witnesses" which are the Holy Saints and Martyrs. These are those who testify for the faith. When you study the Divine Liturgy, then you understand Revelations in an entirely new light.

Actually, Orthodox Divine Liturgy is very similar to the Jewish Temple Worship. They have incense and the praying of the psalms and so do we. They have seraphim and cherubim displayed and so do we.

Christ appeared in the flesh (His Holy Nativity) and gave His holy image to the King of Edessa just before He was crucified. The King of Edessa was cured of his leprosy through this Image Not Made by Hands, which is one of the many Icons we Orthodox venerate. It's sad that the protestants have become iconoclasts and reject the public veneration of these Holy Icons.

Would the Church that Christ established fall into error when Christ promised that He would lead us into all truth? No, our God does not deceive. He is with our Church as its Head, and will be until the end of times, when we will be with Christ our God for all eternity.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly and prayerfully in Christ in God,

Elizabeth

P.S. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them.

 

[Oblio]

It's sad that the protestants have become iconoclasts and reject the public veneration of these Holy Icons.

At least there is one brave Baptist out there that has not become an iconoclast

I began to study the Bible without reading the Church Fathers and found a very different Christianity then I found in Orthodoxy. So different in fact that I left the Church.

How did you make the decision that the Christianity you found was the one that Christ and His Apostles founded ?

 

[Maximus]

Darby is one in a long line of folks that believe in dispensationalism, Justin Martyr was an early example.

St. Justin Martyr most definitely was NOT a Dispensationalist.

Dispensationalists believe in the "two kingdoms" theory; that is, that God has two separate kingdoms and two separate peoples, national Israel and the Church.

St. Justin Martyr believed that the Church is the true Israel of God and that there is no future for national Israel outside of the Church.

"For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham ( who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations ), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed" ( St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter XI ).

 

[Reformed Baptist]

 

[Reader Nilus]

St Paul points out clearly that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek.
Galatians 3: 23-29
Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. For all of you whowere baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise.

Jeff the Finn

 

[Reformed Baptist]

 

[Oblio]

[mod hat on]

RB,

Jeff answered your question. I am getting the feeling that you are not asking a question, but attempting to persuade (via debate) the Orthodox members the validity of the heterodox dispensationalist view. You are welcome to do this in IDD or P/R/E, but not in this forum. Thank you for your understanding.

3) Non-Orthodox and Coptic members (eg. Protestant or Catholic members) can only post fellowship posts here or posts to ask a question regarding Orthodox and Coptic doctrine. Once the question is answered, there shall be no debate over the answer in this forum by the Non-Orthodox or Coptic member. Any debate posts by Non-Orthodox or Coptic members will be deleted or moved to the Interdenominational Doctrine Debate forum. In other words, only Orthodox and Coptic members can debate here.

[/mod hat off]

 

[Reformed Baptist]

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[nyj]

http://christianforums.com/t39014

Unfortunately John Shephard's website is no longer up and running, but enough can be gleaned from the thread I made which effectively shows that no dispensationalist who truly knows what the ECFs taught would dare claim them for their own.