Disobedience has consequences.

[bhsmte]

You are assuming that the intervention did not happen. I would assume it did.

Effective prayer is not about doing something hard enough. It is about being in the right place.

That is a big assumption.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That is a big assumption.

Maybe they just weren't in the "right place." If they were in the "right place" (e.g., a hospital), their prayers might have been "answered." I'm not sure, but perhaps that's what Catherineanne means.

 

[bhsmte]

Maybe they just weren't in the "right place." If they were in the "right place" (e.g., a hospital), their prayers might have been "answered." I'm not sure, but perhaps that's what Catherineanne means.

I always heard, God loves all his creation. I wouldn't think he would be concerned about the details of where someone was at.

 

[Colter]

Generations, certainly. Tens of thousands of years, not so much.

I can write a story about life ten thousand years ago. That does not make the story ten thousand years old, nor even historicity, whatever that may be.

Maybe my use of the term "oral traditions" is not appropriate as that would apply more to intercultural tradition.

I believe the story of the days of Adam and Eve goes back well beyond the timeline extrapolated from the Hebrews narratives. In fact I think rather the Hebrews appropriated the Adam and Eve creation story from other Mesopotamian cultures such as the Persians and incorporated that into their own creation story. Since there was no evolutionary science, or any science to speak of, the assumption was that A&E were the first humans when the story itself has Cain afraid to leave his tribe for fear of other tribes out beyond the second garden, in the land of Nod where he found himself a wife.

 

[Catherineanne]

Maybe my use of the term "oral traditions" is not appropriate as that would apply more to intercultural tradition.

I believe the story of the days of Adam and Eve goes back well beyond the timeline extrapolated from the Hebrews narratives. In fact I think rather the Hebrews appropriated the Adam and Eve creation story from other Mesopotamian cultures such as the Persian and incorporated that into their own creation story. Since there was no evolutionary science, or any science to speak of, the assumption was that A&E were the first humans when the story itself has Cain afraid o leave his tribe for fear of other tribes out beyond the second garden, in the land of Nod where he found himself a wife.

Fair enough. But where did this bit of science fiction come from:

Adam and Eve came to our world from on high, this material Son and daughter were on a mission of redemption for our previously fallen, evolved earth. They defaulted, outflanked by the deceptions of the crafty beast, they lost their immortality status and were marooned here until death.

That is rather weird, to say the least.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Fair enough. But where did this bit of science fiction come from:

The Urantia Book presumably. We've got a diverse crowd here.

 

[Colter]

Fair enough. But where did this bit of science fiction come from:



That is rather weird, to say the least.

* Well, from Genesis we can see that A&E arrived as full grown, educated adults. They spoke a language. No explanation given as to how.

* The "crafty beast" was already evil, he knew what Gods will was, he was already working against Gods will in trying to trip up the pair, he also spoke their language. The world had fallen long before A&E.

* Eve did something she wasn't supposed to do, with something or someone that she found "pleasing to the eye" ( It was not eating fruit). The result brought certain biological consequences (child bearing pains) for her descendants (you can now probably figure out what she did that would make that happen).

* Death has been on this evolved earth since life was first initiated, it's normal. If you look closely death came to Adam and Eve specifically as they could no longer use "the tree of life".

* Cain (the bastard child of the sin and reminder of their fall) didn't get along with his full brother Able, he got tired of the taunting. [Note, Cain and Able are making contributions to a religious order, tending flocks and fields. How much food would a family of 4 need to work for in a tropical paradise if they were in fact the first people on earth??????]

No, there is a much bigger story beyond what survived.

 

[LostMarbels]

That justifies his inaction?

I get the impression that you think you have some kind of say in what God is allowed to do concerning your life. Again, God is sovereign with unmitigated authority. He dose not need your approval, consent, or agreement for anything. You need his.

The only way for me to say it, is to say it. God alone is sovereign. God dose not support anything we do. We must come into agreement with him, not him with us. It simply dose not matter what you chose to believe. God's will, will be done no matter what you do. When Jesus comes back you either go with, or you don't.

As I have already stated to you in previous conversations; God, hell, grace, prayer and so on operate in the metaphysical realm. Until you can understand them from a non-carnal mind you cannot understand truly what they are.

You don't even know who Jesus is or my God. How then do you have such an innate ability to know their constructs? Or the oracles of God? Your entire mind set is set on one tangent, and has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Just because you "think" it should be thusly, dose not in fact make it so. You need to find out who God is in-order to understand what God dose.

How many conditions must God meet in your standards before you believe? How much does God need to suck up to you in order for you to be okay with him? Should God steep down from his throne to appease you? As with most people, they expect God to meet their own expectations instead of recognizing God as sovereign.

You have no say. None at all. That is what people do not like about a sovereign God. They want God to appease them instead of serving God. When you refuse God, you refuse his grace, and choose your own path.

I find that many people simply can not, or will not accept a sovereign God with absolutely immutable unmitigated dominion. God is not a politician running a democracy that may be swayed with popular opinion or fear of being politically correct. He alone is King. His spoken word is law. He alone reigns supreme. It simply dose not matter if Gods word offends you, or you chose to believe contrary to his edicts. The very words we use to try and sway our own points of view were created by God. We are the created not the creator. Our beliefs need to align with the creator having cast aside our own points of view.

Seriously? Who are we to demand justification of God?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I get the impression that you think you have some kind of say in what God is allowed to do concerning your life. Again, God is sovereign with unmitigated authority. He dose not need your approval, consent, or agreement for anything. You need his.

The only way for me to say it, is to say it. God alone is sovereign. God dose not support anything we do. We must come into agreement with him, not him with us. It simply dose not matter what you chose to believe. God's will, will be done no matter what you do. When Jesus comes back you either go with, or you don't.

As I have already stated to you in previous conversations; God, hell, grace, prayer and so on operate in the metaphysical realm. Until you can understand them from a non-carnal mind you cannot understand truly what they are.

You don't even know who Jesus is or my God. How then do you have such an innate ability to know their constructs? Or the oracles of God? Your entire mind set is set on one tangent, and has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Just because you "think" it should be thusly, dose not in fact make it so. You need to find out who God is in-order to understand what God dose.

Does. The word is 'does'.

I find that many people simply can not, or will not accept a sovereign God with absolutely immutable unmitigated dominion.

People tend to have a problem with tyranny. But if you want to be a sycophant, go right ahead.

Seriously? Who are we to demand justification of God?

People with minds?

 

[Catherineanne]

The Urantia Book presumably. We've got a diverse crowd here.

Clearly. : )

 

[Catherineanne]

I get the impression that you think you have some kind of say in what God is allowed to do concerning your life. Again, God is sovereign with unmitigated authority. He dose not need your approval, consent, or agreement for anything. You need his.

The only way for me to say it, is to say it. God alone is sovereign. God dose not support anything we do. We must come into agreement with him, not him with us. It simply dose not matter what you chose to believe. God's will, will be done no matter what you do. When Jesus comes back you either go with, or you don't.

As I have already stated to you in previous conversations; God, hell, grace, prayer and so on operate in the metaphysical realm. Until you can understand them from a non-carnal mind you cannot understand truly what they are.

You don't even know who Jesus is or my God. How then do you have such an innate ability to know their constructs? Or the oracles of God? Your entire mind set is set on one tangent, and has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. Just because you "think" it should be thusly, dose not in fact make it so. You need to find out who God is in-order to understand what God dose.

How many conditions must God meet in your standards before you believe? How much does God need to suck up to you in order for you to be okay with him? Should God steep down from his throne to appease you? As with most people, they expect God to meet their own expectations instead of recognizing God as sovereign.

You have no say. None at all. That is what people do not like about a sovereign God. They want God to appease them instead of serving God. When you refuse God, you refuse his grace, and choose your own path.

I find that many people simply can not, or will not accept a sovereign God with absolutely immutable unmitigated dominion. God is not a politician running a democracy that may be swayed with popular opinion or fear of being politically correct. He alone is King. His spoken word is law. He alone reigns supreme. It simply dose not matter if Gods word offends you, or you chose to believe contrary to his edicts. The very words we use to try and sway our own points of view were created by God. We are the created not the creator. Our beliefs need to align with the creator having cast aside our own points of view.

Seriously? Who are we to demand justification of God?

You would seem to have a rather dysfunctional God.

All I can say is that if I get to eternity and God is anything like you describe I will happily jump into a lake of fire to get away from him. Such a God is not worth my time.

 

[Catherineanne]

* Well, from Genesis we can see that A&E arrived as full grown, educated adults. They spoke a language. No explanation given as to how.

* The "crafty beast" was already evil, he knew what Gods will was, he was already working against Gods will in trying to trip up the pair, he also spoke their language. The world had fallen long before A&E.

* Eve did something she wasn't supposed to do, with something or someone that she found "pleasing to the eye" ( It was not eating fruit). The result brought certain biological consequences (child bearing pains) for her descendants (you can now probably figure out what she did that would make that happen).

* Death has been on this evolved earth since life was first initiated, it's normal. If you look closely death came to Adam and Eve specifically as they could no longer use "the tree of life".

* Cain (the bastard child of the sin and reminder of their fall) didn't get along with his full brother Able, he got tired of the taunting. [Note, Cain and Able are making contributions to a religious order, tending flocks and fields. How much food would a family of 4 need to work for in a tropical paradise if they were in fact the first people on earth??????]

No, there is a much bigger story beyond what survived.

Most of that is twaddle, I am afraid.

It was fruit. Adam and Eve were innocent as children; your innuendo is not appropriate at that point.

Cain and Abel are archetypes; Farmer versus Hunter/Gatherer; the former displaced the latter.

 

[Catherineanne]

Maybe they just weren't in the "right place." If they were in the "right place" (e.g., a hospital), their prayers might have been "answered." I'm not sure, but perhaps that's what Catherineanne means.

No, the right place spiritually. To communicate with God we have to be where God is. If we put ourselves in a place where he is not, or where we deliberately exclude him, then our prayers are a bit of a waste of time.

God does not want children to die. They do die, nonetheless. I have no idea what the answer to this is; I can only hope that there is a good one.

I think there is some kind of tacit assumption that because people believe in God they therefore think death, disease and suffering is a good thing. It is not a good thing. Another assumption is that God must like it. God does not like it. But he gives us free will; mankind as a whole could make a choice to eliminate hunger. It does not do so.

Humanists don't get off the hook on this one either; why do we not end hunger and suffering? You tell me.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, the right place spiritually. To communicate with God we have to be where God is. If we put ourselves in a place where he is not, or where we deliberately exclude him, then our prayers are a bit of a waste of time.

How does one get in the "right place" spiritually?

God does not want children to die. They do die, nonetheless. I have no idea what the answer to this is; I can only hope that there is a good one.

I think there is some kind of tacit assumption that because people believe in God they therefore think death, disease and suffering is a good thing. It is not a good thing. Another assumption is that God must like it. God does not like it. But he gives us free will; mankind as a whole could make a choice to eliminate hunger. It does not do so.

God also has free will. He could make a choice to eliminate it, but he does not.

Humanists don't get off the hook on this one either; why do we not end hunger and suffering? You tell me.

You mean why don't we end it this very second, with a snap of our fingers? Because we are not omnipotent.

 

[LostMarbels]

Does. The word is 'does'.

I have spatial dysgraphia, spatial dyscalculia and a mild form of dyslexia. I miss-speal wurds sometymes. Chances are if spellcheck doesn't catch it I wont. I'm sure I could provide you with a plethora of stuff to point out if I turn off my spell check.

People tend to have a problem with tyranny. But if you want to be a sycophant, go right ahead.

You have no idea at all of what you are talking about. Being sovereign dose (did it on purpose that time) not make God a tyrant. It makes him offensive to those who do not want to serve a God, but rather have their own agenda's heard. God created this existence and all that is in it.

People with minds?

Nothing wrong with questioning. It is outright dismissal in ignorance that is harmful.

 

[Colter]

Most of that is twaddle, I am afraid.

It was fruit. Adam and Eve were innocent as children; your innuendo is not appropriate at that point.

Cain and Abel are archetypes; Farmer versus Hunter/Gatherer; the former displaced the latter.

Call it what you like it's in the story.

I agree with the bias of the authors about hunter/gatherer.

 

[Catherineanne]

How does one get in the "right place" spiritually?

Like sunbathing. Find where the sun is, sit in a deckchair and enjoy. It is not about 'praying hard'.

God also has free will. He could make a choice to eliminate it, but he does not.

If he did that we would no longer have free will. I think if I were God I would be tempted to do that, but clearly he must have his reasons not to.

You mean why don't we end it this very second, with a snap of our fingers? Because we are not omnipotent.

I mean why waste time here arguing with me? Why not go and save the world instead? It seems rather unreasonable to expect a God you do not believe in to do it, when you do not.

 

[Catherineanne]

Call it what you like it's in the story.

I agree with the bias of the authors about hunter/gatherer.

It isn't bias. It is a kind of folk memory; an echo of ancient memories of farmers displacing hunters.

 

[bhsmte]

Like sunbathing. Find where the sun is, sit in a deckchair and enjoy. It is not about 'praying hard'.

Going to ask you an obvious question.

How do you determine where the sun is, in regards to spirituality?

 

[Colter]

I have spatial dysgraphia, spatial dyscalculia and a mild form of dyslexia. I miss-speal wurds sometymes. Chances are if spellcheck doesn't catch it I wont. I'm sure I could provide you with a plethora of stuff to point out if I turn off my spell check.



You have no idea at all of what you are talking about. Being sovereign dose (did it on purpose that time) not make God a tyrant. It makes him offensive to those who do not want to serve a God, but rather have their own agenda's heard. God created this existence and all that is in it.





Nothing wrong with questioning. It is outright dismissal in ignorance that is harmful.

The Old Testament displays a God created largely in mans own image. Failure to reform and distinguish has left people in the awkward position of having to defend that image like an abusive and inconsistent Father figure by the anxious family.