Disobedience has consequences.

[GrimKingGrim]

Can you please explain what you mean? Why are you suggesting that a theist is not describing and viewing the same reality as an atheist?

Yes and no. I'm saying we both reached the same answer nearly. But for some reason the theists can't take 1+1 as 1+1 and it must be 2.1. And Atheists are very confused as to why 1+1=2 is just not a possibility. You see the exact same reality we do but we draw different conclusions.

We see 2, they see 2.1

Is that even possible?

Yes, it's all perception. For all we know we could be wrong. I'll explain in my next point.

But first let me say, I like you guy. You're a voice of both reason and civility.

Plus, how sure are you that the total sum of reality is 2?

We're not. We may even be wrong. But from what we see reality is 1+1 because it's all we're given and we're not inclined to believe there's more. But there could be a possibility we're reading it wrong and it is in fact 1 + 1.1. But as it stands it seems that this is not the case and we haven't been compelled by much more than what's relative to us to see it as the case.

Can you actually perceive the entirety of reality from any given vantage point?

It's only honest to say no.

OK, but why do you suppose the author did this? It is effectively telling a lie.

Power. Lies work best on the ignorant and generally non skeptical. This is why American Right wing Christian Evangelicals have ruined parts of Africa. They went in with their lies on people who don't know any better and imposed their values without so much as a second thought. It caused chaos.

The writers by doing this in an even more ignorant age could easily claim to be divinely inspired to write these out and then use that to claim political and social power. Easiest way to be a leader among the crowd.

Without genesis 5, I wouldn't mind reading it mythically. But anyway, I only wanted to know why you have chosen to not believe it as fact.

It strikes me as an "I've danced this waltz before" scenario in which it goes to great lengths to romanticize something but know very little about it. Creation myths are plentiful and are mostly the same. But all show a basic misunderstanding of the natural world because they knew not what the world is nor the processes that would have to take place. They only knew what was relative to them.

Which is where the story of the flood is a perfect example. History shows that perhaps there was a great water flow in the middle eastern or Mediterranean area due to the many myths about it. However those who wrote about it only knew their world and not the world around them so they assumed the world flooded.

Check it out: http://www.meister-z.com/meister_z/FLOODPJ.htm

Fascinating, yes, but hardly worthy of considering to be fact are creation myths.

Can you please confirm that you think it would have been impossible to happen as it is described?

Yes the writer, which is 3rd person, would have to be alive for 9 centuries alone to start off. That's unreasonable.

Compared to saying that you think it is most unlikely to have happened that way?

I see no fundamental reason to consider any creation myth. I get what you're trying to say in keeping an open mind, but I only have but so much room in my brain and to consider every creation myth for truth is a stretch. Because a new creation myth can come from anyone. Who says it has to be ancient? They were very recent in the days they were written.

 

[oi_antz]

Yes and no. I'm saying we both reached the same answer nearly. But for some reason the theists can't take 1+1 as 1+1 and it must be 2.1. And Atheists are very confused as to why 1+1=2 is just not a possibility. You see the exact same reality we do but we draw different conclusions.

We see 2, they see 2.1

I think this analogy is failing to convince me that you are right. Can you give me a real example? Why would you not just as easily say that a theist sees 2 while an atheist sees 1.9?

Yes, it's all perception. For all we know we could be wrong. I'll explain in my next point.

But first let me say, I like you guy. You're a voice of both reason and civility.



We're not. We may even be wrong. But from what we see reality is 1+1 because it's all we're given and we're not inclined to believe there's more. But there could be a possibility we're reading it wrong and it is in fact 1 + 1.1. But as it stands it seems that this is not the case and we haven't been compelled by much more than what's relative to us to see it as the case.



It's only honest to say no.



Power. Lies work best on the ignorant and generally non skeptical. This is why American Right wing Christian Evangelicals have ruined parts of Africa. They went in with their lies on people who don't know any better and imposed their values without so much as a second thought. It caused chaos.

The writers by doing this in an even more ignorant age could easily claim to be divinely inspired to write these out and then use that to claim political and social power. Easiest way to be a leader among the crowd.

OK, thanks.

It strikes me as an "I've danced this waltz before" scenario in which it goes to great lengths to romanticize something but know very little about it. Creation myths are plentiful and are mostly the same. But all show a basic misunderstanding of the natural world because they knew not what the world is nor the processes that would have to take place. They only knew what was relative to them.

Well I have never seen a creation myth so detailed and matter of fact as Genesis. Genesis does have a unique believability compared to others I have seen, which all seem to disclose undertones that the author expects the reader to recognise it is b.s. but maybe you know of some that are comparable and maybe I haven't read them. You can mention them if so.

Which is where the story of the flood is a perfect example. History shows that perhaps there was a great water flow in the middle eastern or Mediterranean area due to the many myths about it. However those who wrote about it only knew their world and not the world around them so they assumed the world flooded.

Check it out: http://www.meister-z.com/meister_z/FLOODPJ.htm

Fascinating, yes, but hardly worthy of considering to be fact are creation myths.



Yes the writer, which is 3rd person, would have to be alive for 9 centuries alone to start off. That's unreasonable.

It is possible though that information was passed through generations, possibly in written form.

I see no fundamental reason to consider any creation myth. I get what you're trying to say in keeping an open mind, but I only have but so much room in my brain and to consider every creation myth for truth is a stretch. Because a new creation myth can come from anyone. Who says it has to be ancient? They were very recent in the days they were written.

Yeah, well you know that doesn't work for me. There is a baby in that bath water.

 

[SkyWriting]

In keeping with the parental metaphor, what sort of parent would punish their child with eternal torment for any act of disobedience? What sort of parent could claim to "love" their child by doing this?

My 6 yo granddaughter needed to be instructed to act in certain ways and to do only certain things the correct way and to avoid particular actions. Not obeying or learning these lessons, she spilled boiling water on her chest and is scarred "eternally" from the neck, down her chest.

A friend of mine in college had a diving accident as a teen and lost use of his legs. A few years later, he was driving his modified car while drunk and flipped it, breaking another vertebrae loosing the use of his arms. He used a "sip & puff" electric wheelchair at school.

The eternal torment you speak about is internal torment. And it's not a punishment, it's a warning about cause and effect.

 

[SkyWriting]

Duplicate

 

[Colter]

What is your explanation for the extremely detailed account of generations and heritage in Genesis 5?

The detailed genealogy in Genesis is there because the Hebrew redactors were attempting to trace their self important blood lines back to a much older and important Adam & Eve. But being unable to do so, they decided to drown the whole world in its own wickedness with the inclusion of the commonly known Noah flood myth.

 

[Colter]

Oh dear.

LoL! But it's all there in the fragmented story, the remains of the oral traditions carried for tens of thousands of years up until the construction of the dubious Hebrew history of the OT,edited, redacted and rewritten in Hebrew in Babylon.

 

[Catherineanne]

LoL! But it's all there in the fragmented story, the remains of the oral traditions carried for tens of thousands of years up until the construction of the dubious Hebrew history of the OT,edited, redacted and rewritten in Hebrew in Babylon.

That is not quite what you said before. Oral traditions may last a few hundred years, but not tens of thousands. That is expecting rather too much of our ancestors, I am afraid.

 

[bhsmte]

A morally imperfect God would not be worth having. Ymmv.

9 million children die each year, before the age of five and many in agony.

Is this all part of man's sin, that this morally perfect God created and set in motion?

 

[bhsmte]

Some times I will consider Genesis as factually true and other times mythically, because it is poosible either is true yet I don't know which definitely is. You can categorise that as not burning my bridges I suppose.

I would categorize this as; psychological gymnastics.

 

[Catherineanne]

9 million children die each year, before the age of five and many in agony.

Is this all part of man's sin, that this morally perfect God created and set in motion?

http://www.globalissues.org/article/715/today-21000-children-died-around-the-world

7.6 million in total, in fact. Certainly not 9 million under 5.

As for your question, I don't know why they die, nor do I know where they go after death, but I trust it can't be worse than here.

I have no idea why God allows these deaths to happen, but I know that he is not the only one. We all allow it, one way or another. What is your reason?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

http://www.globalissues.org/article/715/today-21000-children-died-around-the-world

7.6 million in total, in fact. Certainly not 9 million under 5.

As for your question, I don't know why they die, nor do I know where they go after death, but I trust it can't be worse than here.

I have no idea why God allows these deaths to happen, but I know that he is not the only one. We all allow it, one way or another. What is your reason?

We're not omnipotent. But even so, as a species we do more to try to prevent this from happening than God does.

 

[Catherineanne]

We're not omnipotent. But even so, as a species we do more to try to prevent this from happening than God does.

Do you really think so?

God has an advantage over us; he knows what happens next.

 

[bhsmte]

http://www.globalissues.org/article/715/today-21000-children-died-around-the-world

7.6 million in total, in fact. Certainly not 9 million under 5.

As for your question, I don't know why they die, nor do I know where they go after death, but I trust it can't be worse than here.

I have no idea why God allows these deaths to happen, but I know that he is not the only one. We all allow it, one way or another. What is your reason?

I can't help but think it is the simple facts of nature and how nature impacts humans. Nature's forces don't account, for how it will impact humans, but humans have had to try to adapt (as best it can) to natural forces.

Disease, whether genetic or environmental, natural disasters, violence, etc etc.. If a God exists and created everything, he knew this would be the result.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Do you really think so?

God has an advantage over us; he knows what happens next.

That justifies his inaction?

 

[Catherineanne]

I would categorize this as; psychological gymnastics.

I am sorry to hear that; as mixed metaphors go it is not at all elegant.

 

[Catherineanne]

That justifies his inaction?

His inaction is an assumption on your part.

 

[Catherineanne]

I can't help but think it is the simple facts of nature and how nature impacts humans. Nature's forces don't account, for how it will impact humans, but humans have had to try to adapt (as best it can) to natural forces.

Disease, whether genetic or environmental, natural disasters, violence, etc etc.. If a God exists and created everything, he knew this would be the result.

We have moved a long way beyond nature. If we wanted to eradicate poverty and perhaps nine tenths of disease we could easily do it. We just choose not to.

That is not God's fault. It is ours.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

His inaction is an assumption on your part.

Evidence for his intervention?

 

[bhsmte]

We have moved a long way beyond nature. If we wanted to eradicate poverty and perhaps nine tenths of disease we could easily do it. We just choose not to.

That is not God's fault. It is ours.

If you believe God created man, then sorry, the responsibility is ultimately his.

When Ford motor company manufactured cars that tended to blow up when rear ended, was it the drivers fault, or the people who manufactured the cars?

 

[bhsmte]

We have moved a long way beyond nature. If we wanted to eradicate poverty and perhaps nine tenths of disease we could easily do it. We just choose not to.

That is not God's fault. It is ours.

Actually, being in healthcare for over 20 years and having an advanced degree in this area, man has done quite well in dealing with disease and extending human life and improving the quality of life even with disease.