Disinformation on 'wine'

[Jig]

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(3) Jesus and his disciples were religious men. Not modern debaucherous priests.

(4) Peter, although taken by surprise, was able to fight against a trained professional soldier and cut off his ear. Not convincing if your going to claim they were knocked out from boozing.

First off, your using the excuse that 'they' didn't drink because 'they' were religious. This is non-sense. This would also depend on your definition of religious. How can Jesus be "religious"? Nor would I consider myself "religious". Buddist and Hindus are religious. I worship the TRUE God.

Then you cliam Peter cut the ear off a "trained professional soldier". This is not true. It was the high priests slave's ear. Plus, if Peter wasn't inebriated by wine, I doubt he would have missed. In other words, who aims to cut off an ear? Peter was probably aiming for the slaves head.

But those points aside, fermented wine was still safest thing to drink 2000 years ago.

 

[BigDave]

You have made some good point here, but note that the position of the other side is simply eroding step by step.

(1) First they said preventing fermentation was impossible, then prohibitively difficult.

First, lets note that never did so.

(2) Then they admitted it was possible but it never happened.

The evidence shows it did happen regularly, and that Jews prefered the method.

True. The evidence you cite does show that it did happen 'regularly' and that it was 'the preferred method'. However, you make two logical fallacies. While the evidence does show it 'happened regularly' you fallacious equate this to mean 'it happened extensively and/or intensively'. As already pointed out, its just not very practical to treat all juice from grapes in this way. The evidence is that preservation by means of fermentation was much more practical and used much more extensively.

Secondly, while the evidence shows that 'it was the preferred method', you fallaciously twist this to your own means and have it to mean 'it was the preferred method of preferred method of preserving all juice from grapes'. In fact, the source specifically says that it was the preferred method of preserving *juice* (ie. unfermented product). It is fallacious to take this to mean that it was the preferred method of storing juice in general. Contrary to your claim, the evidence shows that preferred method of storing grape product was by means of fermentation.

But the argument that all grape juice was fermented to preserve it is obviously an outright lie.

No disagreement here (although I would tone down the rhetoric - 'outright lie' implies that the facts were none and intentionally suppressed.)

True. But a variety of techniques are available, and Jews obviously wanted to preserve juice without fermentation according to the Talmud.

You have yet to show this to be the case. The sources you cite from the Talmud show the opposite. The speak not of preserving unfermented juice but of making fermented wine unsuitable for pagan worship (where fermented wine was commonly used) and thus 'kosher'. Google "history of Mevushal wines" to learn a bit more about those Talmud references.

 

[WAB]

Wine is wine, grape juice is grape juice. Jesus drank wine. Melchizadek drank wine. What is the issue? Drinking wine doesn't make someone a lush or an alcoholic.

Often the issue originates from some in the KJV ONLY segment of the church.
We have had a tough time with these folks over the years; tough, because many (not all) are true believers, and real brothers/sisters in the Lord. The following is the result of research in both the Hebrew and Greek references to wine.

WINE
​

DEFINITIONS: In Hebrew, there are at least eight different words that are translated into the English word "wine".

The most common is the word "ya'yin" which means: "to effervesce; wine as fermented; by implication intoxication." (from Strong's dictionary of Hebrew Words).

All of the Hebrew words translated into the English word "wine" mean either specifically an intoxicant, such as: "shekar" (shay-kawr'), or imply intoxication.

The word "ya'yin" is used in Genesis 9:20, where (of Noah) it is said: "And he drank wine, and was drunken..."

The same word is used in Gen.19:32-35 where the daughters of Lot enticed him to drink wine and then committed incest with him. Obviously, Lot was in a drunken stupor considering the last part of verse 33 which says: "...and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose." (referring to Lot's firstborn).

In Leviticus 10:9, God forbids Aaron to "...drink wine or strong drink.. ."
when Aaron was to go into the tabernacle. The obvious implication being that either one is a mind-altering substance, and Aaron was to be clear-headed.
Unger's Bible Dictionary has the following: "Wine. 1. Bible Terms. The product of the wine press was described in Hebrew by a variety of terms, indicative either of the quality or the use of the liquid.

(1) Heb. ya'yin (effervescing) is rendered invariably in the A.V. "wine," excepting Judges 13:14, "vine"; Canticles 2:4, "banqueting." This term corresponds to the Gr. oinos, and our wine. In most of the passages in the Bible where yayin is used (eighty-three out of one hundred and thirty eight), it certainly means fermented grape juice, and in the remainder it may fairly be presumed to do so. In four only (Isa. 16:10; Jer.40:10-12; Lam. 2:12) is it really doubtful. "In no passage can it be positively shown to have any other meaning. The intoxicating character of yayin in general is plain from Scripture. To it are attributed the "darkly flashing eye" (Gen. 49:12; A.V. "red"), the unbridled tongue (Prov. 20:1; Isa. 28:7), the excitement of the spirit (Prov. 31:6; Isa. 5:11; Zech. 9:15; 10:7), the enchained affections of its votaries (Hos.4:11), the perverted judgement (Prov.31:5; Isa.28:7), the indecent exposure (Hab.2:15,16), and the sickness resulting from the heat (hemah, A.V. "bottles") of wine (Hos. 7:5)."

In Greek, there are four words (three of which are from the same root) translated into the English word "wine."
1. "gleu'kos: sweet wine; fresh, but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine." (from Strong's) This is the word used in Acts 2:13, where some of those who heard the disciples speak in languages they had received from the Holy Spirit declared that the disciples were "...full of new wine..." but Peter told them: "...these are not drunken as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

Obviously Peter, as well as those who had heard, associated "new wine" with inebriation.

2. "oi'nos: a primitive word; or perhaps of Hebrew origin [yayin] ; wine." (again, from Strong's) This is the most common Greek word translated into the English "wine" and is used by our Lord in the Gospels. In the analogy of putting "new wine" into old wineskins, if it were mere grapejuice.... no problem. But as the definition of these words "new wine" also utilizes the word gleu'kos with it's attendant meaning, and since this wine is still in the process of fermentation (effervescing), no wonder the wineskins (KJV "bottles") could not contain it.

3. "oinophlugi'a : an overflow (or surplus) of wine, i.e. vinolency (drunkeness): excess of wine." (Strong's). This word is used in 1 Peter 4:3 as "... excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries."

4. "par'oinos: staying near wine; tippling; given to wine." (Strong's).

This word is used in the description/qualifications of the man who aspires to the "...office of a bishop..." (or overseer), in 1 Timothy 3:3: "Not given to wine..." and in vs. 8: "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine..." (The NASB has: "not addicted to wine..." in vs.3, and.... "not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine..." in verse 8).

Kenneth Wuest, in his Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, has this to say regarding Ephesians 5:18... "'Be drunk' is methusko, 'to get drunk, become intoxicated.' Wycliffe translates, "be filled." Vincent says: ‘A curious use of the word occurs in Homer, where he is describing the stretching of a bull's hide, which in order to make it more elastic is soaked (methusko) with fat.’ The word, therefore, refers to the condition of a person in which he is soaked with wine."

See also Luke 7:33,34, where the English word winebibber is used, the Greek word for which is oinopot'es, the definition of which is: "a tippler" (again taken from Strong's).

Webster's defines "tippler" as "One who habitually indulges in the excessive use of spiritous liquors; a drunkard; a sot. It however signifies often a person who habitually drinks strong liquors, without absolute drunkenness."
Webster further defines.... "Bibber: n. A tippler, a man given to drinking; chiefly used in composition, as winebibber."

None of the above would make any sense whatsoever if we substitute "grapejuice" (as is the case with many KJV Only folks), for what the Word of God so plainly says by using the word "wine".

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W.A.B.
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[stray bullet]

If wine was bad religiously then perhaps you can explain why there were using it for communion when the apostles were still alive?

Israel and the jews did have wine and produced wine.

 

[stray bullet]

BTW- In case anyone forgot, Israel is mostly a desert and not heavily forested. Furthermore, it lacks snow, snowy mountains and deep caves.

They notion that jews were boiling all their grape juice down (requiring a lot of energy) to must or could stash them in cold storage over the year is a bit silly.

The most practical thing at the time was to squeeze grapes into a liquid, store them in a jar and they probably added some wine from a good batch to the grape juice to carry on the strain of yeast to ferment it.

 

[BigDave]

Interesting thread amd an argument that there seems no end to howerver I just want to point out one thing in regards to the Last Supper. This was the celebration of Passover and there was no yeast of any kind allowed so therefore the drink could not have been fermented as yeast naturally occures during the process. So ifit was fermented then Jesus broke the law of God and wouldnot have been the sinless sacrfice on the cross.
Note I am limiting my remarks to the Last Supper and Passover.
In Christ, Tom

1) You have a basic misunderstanding of winemaking and its relationship to yeast.
a) First of all, fermentation does not cause yeast to occur - instead, yeast is what causes fermentation to occur. Yeast is naturally present in grape juice which is why fermentation naturally occurs unless some preservation process takes place to prevent it.
b) The process of fermentation eventually causes all yeast to die. It then settles out of the wine and is filtered out. Thus, there is no yeast left when the winemaking process is complete.

2) Secondly there is nothing prohibiting the use of fermented wine in the Passover. On the contrary, it was common Jewish practice to do so up till around the 16th century. What was prohibited was leaven (of which wine has none) and leavened bread (not fermented wine). There is no allusion to wine in the Passover either in command or restriction.

Thus, for Jesus to drink wine at the Passover would not have been against the Mosaic law.

In fact, there are good reasons as to why the cup at the Passover should be considered to be wine. The main one is that the cup was said to represent His blood. In the OT, wine (not grape juice) is used as symbol of blood. If Christ were remaining consistent with OT symbology, then the cup of the 'fruit of the vine' was wine and not grape juice.

 

[WAB]

Weak and unconvincing.
'Good oinos' would be unfermented (unleavened) grape juice.

Keep in mind that modern scientific control of fermentation in sterilized temperature controlled industrial vats was not available. In the time of Jesus, any fermentation process had a 50/50 chance of producing 'bad' alcohol, namely Methyl Hydrate ('methanol'), which is far more toxic and causes liver damage, kidney failure and blindness. This would be well known from observation.

bad juice yes. But that's not in the text. But could you tell cheaper juice from the best, and would you care after drinking and eating all afternoon?

Precisely why the water that Jesus converted into wine was taken to the "governor" of the feast. He was hired to see that all went well, and so was not drinking. He was also the best qualified (other than the Lord Jesus) to judge the quality of the wine.

 

[stray bullet]

[bible]Luke 5:39[/bible]

Must does not get better with age. Only fermented liquids improve with age because of the chemicals produced during the process.

 

[WAB]

1) You have a basic misunderstanding of winemaking and its relationship to yeast.
a) First of all, fermentation does not cause yeast to occur - instead, yeast is what causes fermentation to occur. Yeast is naturally present in grape juice which is why fermentation naturally occurs unless some preservation process takes place to prevent it.
b) The process of fermentation eventually causes all yeast to die. It then settles out of the wine and is filtered out. Thus, there is no yeast left when the winemaking process is complete.

2) Secondly there is nothing prohibiting the use of fermented wine in the Passover. On the contrary, it was common Jewish practice to do so up till around the 16th century. What was prohibited was leaven (of which wine has none) and leavened bread (not fermented wine). There is no allusion to wine in the Passover either in command or restriction.

Thus, for Jesus to drink wine at the Passover would not have been against the Mosaic law.

In fact, there are good reasons as to why the cup at the Passover should be considered to be wine. The main one is that the cup was said to represent His blood. In the OT, wine (not grape juice) is used as symbol of blood. If Christ were remaining consistent with OT symbology, then the cup of the 'fruit of the vine' was wine and not grape juice.

Amen, and Amen.

P.S. Haappy Birthday!

 

[BigDave]

None of the above would make any sense whatsoever if we substitute "grapejuice" (as is the case with many KJV Only folks), for what the Word of God so plainly says by using the word "wine".

You can't be serious!? Every-word-is-perfectly-inspired-by-God-and-changing-those-words-to-some-other-word-damages-its-inspired-stasus-KJVonlies actually hold that the inspired translation of 'wine' actually means 'grape juice'. Now thats the height of irony.

 

[WAB]

You can't be serious!? Every-word-is-perfectly-inspired-by-God-and-changing-those-words-to-some-other-word-damages-its-inspired-stasus-KJVonlies actually hold that the inspired translation of 'wine' actually means 'grape juice'. Now thats the height of irony.

Some of said group also maintain that the KJV's translation of the Greek pas'cha into English "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is correct! When in fact, as the NKJV and many other translations have it, "Passover" is the correct translation.

 

[Jipsah]

(4) Peter, although taken by surprise, was able to fight against a trained professional soldier and cut off his ear.

He was trying to cut off the other ear.

 

[WAB]

Some of said group also maintain that the KJV's translation of the Greek pas'cha into English "Easter" in Acts 12:4 is correct! When in fact, as the NKJV and many other translations have it, "Passover" is the correct translation.

P.S. This is definitely not meant to denigrate the KJV. I use it often, and partly because the English therein is more majestic than many newer translations.

Perhaps it would also be good to note that none of the errors in any of the legitimate translations effect any primary doctrine. Unfortunately, some of the newer paraphrases, such as the "Message" do.

 

[Jipsah]

This was the celebration of Passover and there was no yeast of any kind allowed so therefore the drink could not have been fermented as yeast naturally occures during the process.

I've been to a Passover seder. They wine they served was real wine, not Welch's.

 

[Aloha Joe]

In Deuteronomy, not only does God allow (and apparently go out of His way to mention) the consumption of fermented beverages, He allows that it be bought with tithe money!

Deut 14:24-26: "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,

then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household."

Note that in Numbers 6, concerning the Nazirite vow, there is a disinction made between "wine" (which is grouped with "strong drink") and "grape juice":

Numbers6:2-3: "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to dedicate himself to the LORD,

3he shall abstain from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes.

When the vow of separation has ended, wine, which has been differentiated from grape juice, may then again be consumed. Verse 20:

20'Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up; and afterward the Nazirite may drink wine.'

Paul criticizes some members of the Corinthian church for gorging on the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper while others end up hungry and without wine. It's clear that the wine is fermented, because he mentions people are getting drunk on it. His criticism is that not enough people are getting their fair share of the (fermented) wine!

1Cor 1:20-33: When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!

...33So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment."

 

[Nazaroo]

What amazes me is that while agreeing more and more with my position,
people don't seem to grasp what the consequences are.

Thank you for conceding some of the facts.
If I have overstated the evidence on my side, I am happy to tone down some claims.

 

[ScottBot]

What amazes me is that while agreeing more and more with my position,
people don't seem to grasp what the consequences are.

Thank you for conceding some of the facts.
If I have overstated the evidence on my side, I am happy to tone down some claims.

 

[Nazaroo]

He was trying to cut off the other ear.

Funny and clever!
(wish I'd said that)

 

[Nazaroo]

In Deuteronomy, not only does God allow (and apparently go out of His way to mention) the consumption of fermented beverages, He allows that it be bought with tithe money!



Note that in Numbers 6, concerning the Nazirite vow, there is a disinction made between "wine" (which is grouped with "strong drink") and "grape juice":


When the vow of separation has ended, wine, which has been differentiated from grape juice, may then again be consumed. Verse 20:



Paul criticizes some members of the Corinthian church for gorging on the bread and wine at the Lord's Supper while others end up hungry and without wine. It's clear that the wine is fermented, because he mentions people are getting drunk on it. His criticism is that not enough people are getting their fair share of the (fermented) wine!

This whole section has been badly rendered in the KJV.
(and I should know, I'm a Nazarite).

Where is says 'wine' should be grape juice, 'strong drink' = drugs and 'vinegar' = alcoholic wine.

The whole chapter is a complete mess, and its not an accident.

 

[ScottBot]

This whole section has been badly rendered in the KJV.
(and I should know, I'm a Nazarite).

Where is says 'wine' should be grape juice, 'strong drink' = drugs and 'vinegar' = alcoholic wine.

The whole chapter is a complete mess, and its not an accident.

I hope you are realizing that you are the only one who agrees with your position, and some of us are rather well versed in Scripture. I personally dislike the KJV (being as I am Catholic), but the Latin Vulgate, and most of the current English translations disagree with your assumptions and theories.