Disinformation on 'wine'

[Nazaroo]

Recap from Abstaining from Wine thread:

Oblio made the following absurd statement:

Before the advent of Pastuerization there was no way to keep wine from fermenting,

simple fact.

I refuted this with simple known facts and common sense:

Simple FALLACY.

In fact, long before refridgerators and tupperware containers, which slow down corruption and fermentation to a virtual standstill, men were quite able to keep the fruits of their harvests from rotting by various labour and storage techniques, like drying, salting, evaporation, sun-sterilization (UV destroys bacteria) and sealing from the air with wax, as well as storage in any handy body of cold water. This was in fact the common practice to prevent fermentation of grape juice:

(1) Labour in separation of the outer skin, and pressing of the juice into containers.
(2) Evaporation and concentration of the juice into syrups and jams.
(3) Boiling and sealing in clay pots with wax.
(4) Storage under cold running water.

These techniques insured that grape juice, and its essential vitamin C was available all year round.

See my other thread ...Drug Dealing in the NT & Alcohol

In spite of this, Jig agreed with Oblio.

Then incredibly BigDave admitted my evidence negated the first claim,
but then immediately denied it could be true:

Simple fallacy: That they *could* in no way means that they *did*.
In fact, as common practice, they *didn't*.
It was too much work to preserve it unfermented
when fermented drink was perfectly acceptable without all the extra process.

Well, did they or didn't they?

Did the ancients use fermentation only, or mainly as the means to preserve the grape harvest, or did they use other methods, substantially, frequently, or mainly, as a way of preserving the grape harvest as a food resource?

Surely there would be evidence one way or another.
And there is abundance evidence:

The process of fermentation occurs only in the presence of certain conditions such as a moderate temperature, moisture and air in the grape juice. There were FOUR major methods used by the ancient peoples surrounding the Mediterranean by which these conditions can be altered or eliminated and thus grape juice be preserved fresh and unfermented.

(1) Preservation by Boiling: Fermentation can be prevented by reducing sufficiently the moisture content or by heating to high temperature. The Yeast germs (fermenting agents) slow down or stop entirely when the juice is heated to about 150-170 degrees F. At this temperature most of the ferments are destroyed. This can be achieved by boiling at almost any altitude.

Preserving by boiling unfermented juice down to a syrup was commonly and successfully used. When desired, the syrup would be mixed with water (as soda pops are today). Virgil (Roman poet 70-19 B.C.) describes the process:
"(the housewife) boils down the sweet 'must' by the fire, and skims off the froth with leaves while it simmers." (Virgil, Georgics 1, 295-296)

This method was widely used, as indicated by Columella's lengthy description of how to successfully preserve grape must (squeezings) by boiling it down.
"Care should also be taken, so that the 'must', when pressed out, may last well or keep until sold..." To ensure its preservation, Columella explains that "Some people put the 'must in lead vessels and by boiling reduce it to a quarter, others by a third. Boiling it down to one half makes an even better (longer lasting) 'must'" (Columella, On Agriculture, 12, 19, 1)

(2) Boiled Grape Juice among the Jews: Boiling was the most probable method also used by ancient Israel to preserve juice. Making and preserving juice was common to Mediterranean countries where viticulture prevailed, and has survived to the present. (See H.J.Van-Lennep, Bible Lands: Their Modern Customs and Manners Illustrative of Scripture NY 1875, pg 120, and also E.W. Rice, Orientalism in Bible

Lands 3rd ed. Phil.1929 pg 154)

The Mishna states that the Jews habitually used boiled wine. "They do not boil the wine of the heave-offering, because it diminishes the quantity", requiring the addition of water to drink it, but the Mishna adds, "Rabbi Yehudah permits this because it improves it." (Teroomoth Perek 100,11)

In the Talmudic 'Abodah Zarah' there is a lengthy discussion on what some rabbis thought was the proper usage of boiled wine. One issue was whether a Jew could use boiled wine for the passover that had been stored by a Gentile, fearing the wine might have been offered to an idol. Rabbi Ashi dismissed this saying, "Our boiled wine which is in the keeping of a goyim doesn't require double sealing. For the goyim would not offer it in that state (single wax seal)". The footnote explains it was only the GOYIM who used RAW
(unboiled) wine. Boiled (unfermented wine) was unacceptable to heathen worshippers. ('abodah Zarah 30a, trans. I.Epstein, The Babylonian Talmud, London 1936, pg 148)

In summary, although Gentiles used fermented wine throughout the Mediterranean, the Jews used mainly boiled grape juice and stored it as a syrup, unfermented. This was the only type of 'oinos' acceptable for religious use in temple services, or at the Passover.

Later practices of Gentile and Jew are not really relevant to establishing the historical facts.

 

[BigNorsk]

To show that something is possible doesn't mean that it was done to all the grape juice. Nor does it show that it was done to

Of the processes you described the boiling is the one that would work the "best". One thing you should note is that even your description of the housewife boiling the juice is really contradictory to your idea that all the juice was preserved that way. The amount of fuel needed and the labor to do a whole crop that way would prevent doing it to the entire crop.

It should also be noted that if the entire crop was prevented from fermenting there would have been no need to put new wine in new skins. It would have been just fine in old skins. No fermentation means no splitting of the old skins.

It should also be noted that wine is specifically told to cause the symptoms of drunkeness in several places in the Bible.

And your rabbinic references indicate that while such boiled wine was known, it was not predominant.

It should be noted that beer was also offered to God as a sacrifice. Alcohol is not unacceptable to God.

Marv

 

[Nazaroo]

You have made some good point here, but note that the position of the other side is simply eroding step by step.

(1) First they said preventing fermentation was impossible, then prohibitively difficult.

(2) Then they admitted it was possible but it never happened.

The evidence shows it did happen regularly, and that Jews prefered the method.

(3) Now the claim is that the one technique discussed is impractical for large scale operations.

Fact is, I have only discussed one of at least four basic and easy methods, all commonly practiced, so far.

But the argument that all grape juice was fermented to preserve it is obviously an outright lie.

If you assert something you know is just a guess that serves to rationalize drinking alcohol, there's a word for it. Its called a pathetic bluff.

When the facts contradict your gambit, but you refuse to acknowledge your fibbing, its called Denial.

When you desperately cling to modified counter-arguments as you paint yourself into a corner, its call drowning.

All these behaviours are common with the victims of addiction, or the self-complacent.

Of the processes you described the boiling is the one that would work the "best". One thing you should note is that even your description of the housewife boiling the juice is really contradictory to your idea that all the juice was preserved that way. The amount of fuel needed and the labor to do a whole crop that way would prevent doing it to the entire crop.

True. But a variety of techniques are available, and Jews obviously wanted to preserve juice without fermentation according to the Talmud.

It should also be noted that if the entire crop was prevented from fermenting there would have been no need to put new wine in new skins. It would have been just fine in old skins. No fermentation means no splitting of the old skins.

This shows a misunderstanding I think of the analogy of the wineskins. Jesus isn't here defending wine processing techniques or explaining to Jews that Jews don't drink alcoholic beverages, like the Greeks. He's talking about why the Jews of His day are rejecting His Spiritual teachings.
We shouldn't expect to make detailed conclusions from a terse allegory.
We have to do that using extensive research instead.

It should also be noted that wine is specifically told to cause the symptoms of drunkeness in several places in the Bible.

No one has doubted that people make fermented wine and drink it, and have since Noah's time. The point is what did Jesus do, and what substance did He want us to use for the Eucharist He instituted.

And your rabbinic references indicate that while such boiled wine was known, it was not predominant.

On the contrary, there is not Mishnaic evidence of any other methods in use by the Jews. But we will present more evidence shortly.

It should be noted that beer was also offered to God as a sacrifice. Alcohol is not unacceptable to God.

No. The references show that beer was used by the Goyim to sacrifice to IDOLS. If you are referring to Old Testament practices mentioned regarding the Egyptians (who invented beer) or other surrounding nations, again the point is moot.

Keep in mind that in the Old Testament too,
there are many references to 'wine' that cannot be alcoholic.
So the meaning must first be established before a given verse can be used as a proof-text for approval or disapproval by God or man.

 

[ScottBot]

Wine is wine, grape juice is grape juice. Jesus drank wine. Melchizadek drank wine. What is the issue? Drinking wine doesn't make someone a lush or an alcoholic.

 

[Nazaroo]

Wine is wine, grape juice is grape juice. Jesus drank wine. Melchizadek drank wine. What is the issue? Drinking wine doesn't make someone a lush or an alcoholic.

Hello Scott. The issue is this:

(1) The biblical words in Hebrew (at least 8 different words) and in Greek (two different words) and translated 'wine' in modern bibles can mean unfermented juice. This is just a historical fact. So 'wine' is not the best translation for these more general words, that don't have exact correspondances in English.

(2) The reason for the interest is because Christians want guidance from the scriptures as to whether or not to use alcoholic beverages or other recreational drugs, and to find out, they need to know:

(3) Whether Jesus really drank alcohol, or just unfermented 'oinos', and what the true biblical NT teaching on both alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages really is, and

(4) Many want to know which drink was used at the Last Supper: fermented juice or unfermented grape juice. Because this would indicate what type of beverage should be used in the celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[ScottBot]

Hello Scott. The issue is this:

(1) The biblical words in Hebrew (at least 8 different words) and in Greek (two different words) and translated 'wine' in modern bibles can mean unfermented juice. This is just a historical fact. So 'wine' is not the best translation for these more general words, that don't have exact correspondances in English.

(2) The reason for the interest is because Christians want guidance from the scriptures as to whether or not to use alcoholic beverages or other recreational drugs, and to find out, they need to know:

(3) Whether Jesus really drank alcohol, or just unfermented 'oinos', and what the true biblical NT teaching on both alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages really is, and

(4) Many want to know which drink was used at the Last Supper: fermented juice or unfermented grape juice. Because this would indicate what type of beverage should be used in the celebration of the Eucharist.

Apostolic tradition says that it is fermented wine, not unfermented juice.

 

[lismore]

(4) Many want to know which drink was used at the Last Supper: fermented juice or unfermented grape juice. Because this would indicate what type of beverage should be used in the celebration of the Eucharist.

Why do you think the disciples were struggling to stay awake in the garden

 

[Nazaroo]

Apostolic tradition says that it is fermented wine, not unfermented juice.

Do you have a reference for that?

Why do you think the disciples were struggling to stay awake in the garden

I have to admit you made me laugh with this one!
Thank God no one suggested what might come next when twelve undisciplined men drink heavily alone.

Three reasons why I don't believe the apostles were drinking and passed out drunk:

(1) They were all aware of their impending doom/danger, hiding out from the authorities, who they knew were seeking to arrest them. It was no time to party or celebrate.

(2) It was late in the night, and Jesus their leader was urgently praying to God. The stress the whole group was under is enough to account for fatigue. Add to this the seven day fasting of the passover week.

(3) Jesus and his disciples were religious men. Not modern debaucherous priests.

(4) Peter, although taken by surprise, was able to fight against a trained professional soldier and cut off his ear. Not convincing if your going to claim they were knocked out from boozing.

 

[Skinster007]

Scripture supports the fact that it was fermented wine when Jesus turned water into wine.

John 2:8-10


8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

People served good wine first and then when everyone was drunk they switched to watered down wine. If I was given grape juice all day and then you switched it with some bad juice, I would know right away. But if I was drinking alcohol all day and you switched it with some watered down stuff, i'd be too drunk to notice. I don't see what the big deal is anyway.

 

[ScottBot]

Scripture supports the fact that it was fermented wine when Jesus turned water into wine.

John 2:8-10


8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

People served good wine first and then when everyone was drunk they switched to watered down wine. If I was given grape juice all day and then you switched it with some bad juice, I would know right away. But if I was drinking alcohol all day and you switched it with some watered down stuff, i'd be too drunk to notice. I don't see what the big deal is anyway.

The big deal is some people want to make the case that Christians should completely abstain from all intoxicating substances, period, regardless of intent. Unfortunately, Scripture just does not bear this out.

 

[BigNorsk]

Beer or strong drink clearly was offered as a sacrifice to God.

Numbers 28:7 NET
(7) " 'And its drink offering must be one quarter of a hin for each lamb. You must pour out the strong drink as a drink offering to the Lord in the holy place.

Based on your standards the fact that you are clearly mistaken on this point must mean you are mistaken on all points. As you judge so shall you be judged.

Marv

 

[Nazaroo]

Scripture supports the fact that it was fermented wine when Jesus turned water into wine.

John 2:8-10


8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, 10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

People served good wine first and then when everyone was drunk they switched to watered down wine. If I was given grape juice all day and then you switched it with some bad juice, I would know right away. But if I was drinking alcohol all day and you switched it with some watered down stuff, i'd be too drunk to notice. I don't see what the big deal is anyway.

Weak and unconvincing.
'Good oinos' would be unfermented (unleavened) grape juice.

Keep in mind that modern scientific control of fermentation in sterilized temperature controlled industrial vats was not available. In the time of Jesus, any fermentation process had a 50/50 chance of producing 'bad' alcohol, namely Methyl Hydrate ('methanol'), which is far more toxic and causes liver damage, kidney failure and blindness. This would be well known from observation.

bad juice yes. But that's not in the text. But could you tell cheaper juice from the best, and would you care after drinking and eating all afternoon?

 

[Nazaroo]

Beer or strong drink clearly was offered as a sacrifice to God.

Numbers 28:7 NET
(7) " 'And its drink offering must be one quarter of a hin for each lamb. You must pour out the strong drink as a drink offering to the Lord in the holy place.

Based on your standards the fact that you are clearly mistaken on this point must mean you are mistaken on all points. As you judge so shall you be judged.

Marv

Mistranslation.

 

[ScottBot]

Mistranslation.

Of course, anything that even remotely suggests anything with alcohol will be a mistranslation, right?

 

[BigNorsk]

Mistranslation.

The word is
H7941
שׁכר
shêkâr
BDB Definition:
1) strong drink, intoxicating drink, fermented or intoxicating liquor
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H7937
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2388a

Strong's
שׁכר
shêkâr
shay-kawr'
From H7937; an intoxicant, that is, intensely alcoholic liquor: - strong drink, + drunkard, strong wine.

I know some translations say wine, but then you would argue that the wine wasn't fermented, but notice that this isn't unfermented, it is intensely alcoholic or strong wine if you want to translate it as wine. If you are thinking unfermented wine, that would be true mistranslation.

Marv

 

[JimfromOhio]

I posted this in Should Christians totally abstain from alcohol? , Post # 407. I will repeat here.

Some Christians and some denominations are getting personal about various "habits" or their own definition of "sins" that should be forbidden. In 1 Corinthians 10:23 that even though something may be lawful (like drinking). There are two general principles which help Christians decide whether they should use or agree regarding drinking: Caring for ourselves and caring for others. Christians should ask two questions: How would drinking affect our bodies? Will it affect our relationship with God?

Arguing about drinking alcohol:
Much of the confusion as to whether wine was fermented or unfermented stems from the word "wine" being used in translation of the Greek word "oinos", which can denote either grape juice or intoxicating wine.

Bible translators of the Bible knew that the word "oinos" could refer to either fermented or unfermented wine. In Ephesians 5:18, Paul commands us to "be not drunk with wine (oinos)."

In the Bible, there are 247 references to wine and strong drink. Of 247 references, 36 are negative references. There are 17 warnings against abusing alcohol, 19 examples of people abusing alcohol.

The 3 references to selecting leaders caution that those who abuse alcohol should not be selected as leaders. They use the phrases "not given to much wine," "not given to drunkenness," and "not given to wine."

On the positive side, there are 59 references to the commonly accepted practice of drinking wine (and strong drink) with meals, 27 references to the abundance of wine as an example of God's blessing, 20 references to the loss of wine and strong drink as an example of God's curse, 25 references to the use of wine in offerings and sacrifices, 9 references to wine being used as a gift, and 5 metaphorical references to wine as a basis for a favorable comparison.

The Bible has several warnings against drunkenness, but only one caution against the responsible use of alcohol in celebration and with meals.

I am not going into legalism about this. I am not much of a drinker of alcohol but I do drink wine every now and then. During a hot day in the summer, I probably drink a can of COLD beer.

I should add that Christians should not "lose any sleep" over disagreements in drinking. This is an area what theologists called "Peripheral Beliefs". It means its not worth fighting or lose any sleep because of these beliefs and practices that are not really that important. God will judge us based on our our hearts, motives and desires rather than our actions. Because our actions are DRIVEN by our hearts, motives and desires. God is not impressed by my appearance (1. Samuel 16:7). The Lord said to Samuel, "Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord don't make decisions the way you do. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person's thoughts and intentions (heart)." (NLT) Jesus even said that appearances can be deceiving (Matt. 23:27), therefore we are not to judge others by their appearances (James 2:2-4). Many Christians are judging based on actions: "The trouble with you is that you make your decisions on the basis of appearance." 2 Corinthians 10:7 (NLT)

Remember what Bob Jones (Founder of Bob Jones University) said about C.S. Lewis? He said "That man smokes a pipe, and that man drinks liquor- but I do believe he's a Christian." Even a person who practiced legalism believes that C.S. Lewis was a Christian. We all who read C.S. Lewis' books believes he was a Christian.

 

[Skinster007]

I don't drink anymore. Even though I don't see a problem with a glass of wine at dinner, I choose to abstain anyway. I don't see the point. I believe being drunk is a sin but at what point in drinking are you in an altered state of mind? That's why I don't drink. Better off just not drinking at all.

 

[tommiegrant]

Interesting thread amd an argument that there seems no end to howerver I just want to point out one thing in regards to the Last Supper. This was the celebration of Passover and there was no yeast of any kind allowed so therefore the drink could not have been fermented as yeast naturally occures during the process. So ifit was fermented then Jesus broke the law of God and wouldnot have been the sinless sacrfice on the cross.
Note I am limiting my remarks to the Last Supper and Passover.
In Christ, Tom

 

[Albion]

Interesting thread amd an argument that there seems no end to howerver I just want to point out one thing in regards to the Last Supper. This was the celebration of Passover and there was no yeast of any kind allowed so therefore the drink could not have been fermented as yeast naturally occures during the process. So ifit was fermented then Jesus broke the law of God and wouldnot have been the sinless sacrfice on the cross.
Note I am limiting my remarks to the Last Supper and Passover.
In Christ, Tom

Christ broke many Jewish and Roman regulations; we don't conclude that he was a sinner for that reason.

As for wine, we know that he used it -- and certainly didn't disapprove of its use-- since we find references thoughout the NT. He performed his first public miracle, for goodness' sake, by making some of it!

So if he used wine of some sort at the Last Supper, I'll do it too.

P.S. We have reason to believe that the Supper was not, strictly speaking, a Passover meal even if that was what was originally intended.

 

[BigDave]

Recap from Abstaining from Wine thread:

Oblio made the following absurd statement:

I refuted this with simple known facts and common sense:

In spite of this, Jig agreed with Oblio.

Then incredibly BigDave admitted my evidence negated the first claim,
but then immediately denied it could be true:

Sorry, reading now I realize I had been imprecise and therefore you misunderstood what I was saying. I agree with you that fruit of the vine could be and was preserved in various fashions. I agree with you that it would be disinformation to claim that it couldn't be.

However, you use this fact that these were known practices to argue that therefore it was the common practice. This is first of all a logical fallacy AND it is contrary to fact. Your disinformation is just as bad as theirs. So, while we are clearing up disinformation lets do so for both sides

1) Juice from grapes *could* be stored for up to a year in different forms without fermentation. Claiming that any reference to oinos *must* be reference to 'wine' is false.

2) While juice from grapes *could* be stored without fermentation, it was NOT common practice to do so. For one, the Jews had no prohibitions or inhibitions against general and moderate use of wine. Because of this, there was little reason to store juice of grapes without fermentation even though it could be done. The claims about it being prohibited for use in the Passover is simply false. Yes, there were *some* ancient Jewish religious leaders who felt it was, but they were NOT the representative of majority opinion much less practice. Common practice was use of alcoholic wine (mixed with water) in the passover.

Did the ancients use fermentation only, or mainly as the means to preserve the grape harvest, or did they use other methods, substantially, frequently, or mainly, as a way of preserving the grape harvest as a food resource?

In summary, although Gentiles used fermented wine throughout the Mediterranean, the Jews used mainly boiled grape juice and stored it as a syrup, unfermented. This was the only type of 'oinos' acceptable for religious use in temple services, or at the Passover.

Read the sources he quotes to support these particular claims. The sources he quotes do NOT substantiate the claim - MORE DISINFORMATION! The sources merely point out that grape juice *could be* preserved without fermentation and that the most common method was by boiling it. This does NOT logically equate to his claim that "preserving grape juice without fermentation" was the most common method of storage. (If I have to go through each source point by point to prove this I will.)

What is more significant is that his last two sources actually *disprove* his assertions. I really don't fell like giving the details of this right now, but here is a site to learn a little about the actual facts of this 'boiling of wine'.