Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

There was indeed a shut door, eventually correctly understood, that referred to the movement of Jesus from the timeline of the first-apartment symbolism into the timeline of the second-apartment symbolism. This was indeed affirmed by God.
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The issue, however, is Ellen making affirmations salvation was terminated for humanity......Between 1844 & 1850 - 51.
...And claiming God "shew" her.

Pythons, you need to quote an EGW vision where God "shew" her, affirming her mistaken understanding that the shut door meant no one else would be saved.

You need to make distinctions, or else only confusion will result.

Distinction 1: There was indeed a shut door shown EGW in vision, and the correct understanding of this shut door was that the "door" had closed to the timeline of the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism, and a door was opened to the timeline of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism.

Distinction 2: There was also, for a few years, an incorrect understanding of that same shut-door vision; that it meant no more people could be saved after 1844.

A Prophet ( and those who support it ) are not at liberty to play Penn and Teller......With what God said via them.

There are MORE then enough detailed descriptions of what "the shut door" was......That it's foolish to attempt to re-define the term after the fact.
...And that's what Ellen & her apologists have attempted to do.

there are indeed detailed descriptions of both understandings of what the shut door was.

1. There are detailed descriptions of the correct meaning of the shut door in the sanctuary timeline, which was shown EGW in vision.

2. And there are detailed descriptions of the incorrect understanding of this shut door, which EGW eventually said that she had never had a vision affirming this incorrect understanding.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

But there was also a shut-door misunderstanding that EGW participated in, and this misunderstanding was not affirmed by God. Shortly after 1844, for a time, many of the disappointed Adventists (SDAs did not come into existence until 1863) thought that the door of probation had closed forever for those who refused to believe in the second coming.
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Participated would not be the correct word to use in this case...
...Bludgeoned is more accurate of a discription.

"bludgeoned"? Okay, if that is your perspective, that is entirely your right.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Mrs. White wrote, in a letter to Loughborough, the following: "With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in '44 I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point."
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Ellen's letter to John Norton Loughborough in 1874, is that the one?
...The period we will be inspecting is previous to 1874.
...Because that's the time hack Ellen used her prophetic gift.
...To establish shut door teaching.

once again, that is your perspective. My perspective is that EGW had a vision about a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. She, along with others, did not understand its meaning at first, but later she retracted her misunderstanding as she understood more.

Biblical writers did not always understand their visions, either. "And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel 8:27.

And even the disciples who did not need a vision because they were in the direct presence of Jesus, did not understand many of the things He presented to them. "And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?" Mark 8:17, 18.

Once EGW understood the shut door vision, and retracted her incorrect understanding and clarified what the vision really meant, her retraction should not be held against her. If so, you would be holding her to a higher standard than the standard for Biblical prophets, messengers, disciples.

Ellen's letter to J.N.L. was simply a shill for her Penn and Teller street game...
...The ploy she was fond of using in moving her teachings around.
...Only instead of a ping pong ball under the cup it was theology.

I'm sorry that you are so angry at Mrs. White. We don't have to base our discussions on her, you know. Every foundational belief I hold is based on the Bible, not on EGW. But I have found her to be a source of instruction on how to live, plus her description of God as in, for instance, Desire of the Ages, has greatly enriched my relationship with Jesus. I'm not about to throw her out because of her early misunderstanding of a vision.

Ellen's 1st vision was claimed to have taken place on December of 1844....
...THAT vision was not put into print until Jan 24 1846 - where it appeared.
...In "The Day Star" rag & again in 1847 in a "Word to the Little Flock".

The text of which can be read fully at the following "pro E.G.W." site...
...On page 4 Ellen explicitly states she was told in vision the shut door was valid.

yes. It was valid, but at first she misunderstood it. That is not the fault of the vision, neither does it mean that the vision of the shut door affirmed her misunderstandingn of it. She was progressive in her understanding.

...And the Adventists who had left the movement were counted among those.
..."Which God HAD rejected".

yes, for those Adventists who had been exposed to the light and rejected it, they never came back. There does come a point in a person's life where God is constrained to reject him or her. "But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." Matt. 25:12.

"When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity." Luke 13:25-27.

The idea of God rejecting humans is a Biblical one. It has happened in the past, as seen in Biblical history, and it happened in 1844, and it will happen again.

http://sopvindicated.org/Sopvindicat...nloads/WLF.pdf

Directly PRIOR to Ellen's 1st vision ( December 1844 ) Ellen and those around here in Portland Maine....
...Had GIVEN UP on both the Midnight cry AND the shut door.
...Thanks to Ellen's prophetic gift she was able to bludgeon the flock.
...Back into the TRADITIONAL BELIEF of the "shut door".

what is the traditional belief of the shut door? That the door to the holy place was closed and the door to the most holy place was opened. That is the traditional SDA belief. So are you saying that EGW was wrong to support this belief?

Originally Posted by Word to the Little Flock, page 22, 1847

When SHE [ Ellen White ] received her first vision, Dec 1844, she AND ALL the band in Portland Maine had GIVEN UP the midnight cry AND SHUT DOOR, as being in the PAST. It was THEN that the Lord SHEW her in VISION, the error into which she and the band in Portland HAD FALLEN.
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continue. What was the error that was shown her in vision?

Miller incepted the "shut door", Jesus didn't come in 1844 and people lost faith...
...Ellen and the little band are mentally junked sitting around in Portland Maine.
...After GIVING UP the midnight cry AND "shut door".
...Until God "shew" Ellen she and the other's were in error for rejecting it????

in error for rejecting what, the true understanding of the shut door, or the erroneous understanding of the shut door?

The Word to the Little Flock continues...


Originally Posted by what follows

She [ Ellen White ] THEN related her VISION to the band, and about sixty CONFESSED their ERROR, and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.
​

​

which vision was this? Do you have the quotation? I'm thinking that the vision was one to encourage them that they had been on the right track spiritually, that the movement was of God, but that they misunderstood the application of the prophecies? I don't know. You would have to quote the exact vision that caused them to confess their error in becoming discouraged and thinking the 1844 movement was all a total mistake.

By the way, are you aware that two others were given similar visions, prior to EGW, to try to correct the misunderstanding of what was supposed to happen in 1844?

(breaking this for length, and continuing in the next post.)

 

[Laodicean]

(Continuing)

This is starting to sound very familiar, isn't it. It is the same "swap" that was used...
...To attempt to make Miller's message valid.
...When it was heretical.

William Miller's ONLY message was to repent and get ready because Jesus was coming in 1844....
...There was NO OTHER MESSAGE, that was IT.

Various Ministers at the time came out and said they agreed with repenting and living holy lives but were against the setting of a specific time for Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Ellen White lambasts those Ministers,

once again, you are juxtaposing. "those ministers." She refers to the ones who mocked and ridiculed those who were looking forward to Jesus' return in 1844. She was not lambasting those who "agreed with repenting and living holy lives but were against the setting of a specific time..." You are making up stuff now.

And "lambasts" is also your word, revealing the same prejudice you demonstrate as in your use of the word "bludgeon."

claiming the reason they rejected Miller's date was that they hated Jesus.

quote? Or are we to take just your commentary?

This is cultic reasoning to the extreme because it demonizes Christians who actually read and believed the Bible when it clearly stated that on man would know the day, season, etc of Jesus' Return.

actually, it says they will not know the day or the hour, not the season. So I imagine the Millerites felt justified in knowing at least the season. Unfortunately, they fixed a day as well. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes.

This is why I bring this up - Ellen stated she didn't use a vision to teach the shut door & I just demonstrated she did.....

no, you just demonstrated that she had a vision about a shut door. You have not demonstrated that she refused to change her understanding of the meaning of the shut door.

...There was only ONE meaning of the "Shut door" between 1844 and 1850 - 51.

there was indeed only one misunderstanding of the meaning of the shut door, and this lasted for a few years. Do you believe in a progressive understanding of truth?

...Are you suggesting Ellen "re-defined" what the shut door equated to years prior to her even realizing she re-defined it?
...You can' be suggesting that, can you?

I am not suggesting anything. These are all your suggestions, and I am trying to clarify them for you. In 1874, EGW redefined her understanding, and I'm not sure when that redefinition first occurred. Maybe sometime in 1850-51, but so what? We progress in understanding truth.

Originally Posted by Laodicean quotes more of the Letter Ellen wrote in 1874

Further in that same letter she writes: "It was on my first journey east to relate my visions that the precious light in regard to the heavenly sanctuary was opened before me and I was shown the open and shut door. . . . I was shown that there was a great work to be done in the world for those who had not had the light and rejected it . . . . I saw that in '44 God had opened a door and no man could shut it, and shut a door and no man could open it. Those who rejected the light which was brought to the world by the message of the second angel went into darkness . . . . " ("Review and Herald, January 14, 1932, p. 6, accompanied by photographic facsimile of this part of her letter.")
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I get what you're saying Laodicea but this is impossible belief for Ellen, given the ONLY meaning of Shut Door....
...That existed between 1844 and 1850 - 51 was explicit that salvation had passed away PERMENANTLY.

And are we allowed to grow in truth or not?


Originally Posted by Laodicean

So when EGW writes, "that most of the Advent people believed AS WE DO that there was a shut door in '44," she is not referring to her early erroneous belief that the door was shut on the rest of the world forever, and she makes it clear she received no vision affirming such a belief, as you say. But she did receive visions affirming that there was a shut door in '44. It just was not the kind of shut door that you and the early Adventists believed.
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& I just made it clear she indeed had such a belief....
...And claimed God "shew her" this teaching.

and this is where you are incorrect. God never showed her that her incorrect understanding of the shut door was correct. And she herself denies that He ever did. How much more do you want?

If what I said previously wasn't enough I'll give you another one to consider...
...That has Ellen White clearly teaching that God "shew" her the shut door was valid.


Originally Posted by Ellen White, letter to Joseph Bates, July 13, 1847

Very early next morning Joseph Tuner called, said he was in haste going out of the city in a short time, and wated I should tell him ALL THAT GOD had shown me IN VISION. It was with fear and trembling I told him ALL. After I had got through he said he had told out the same last evening. I rejoiced, for I had expected he was coming out against me, for all the while I had not heard any one say what he believed. He said the Lord had sent him to talk the evening before, but as I would not, he meant his children should have the light in some way, so he took him.
​

Well, Here is what Joseph Turner understood "The Shut door to mean" prior to speaking with Ellen.

remember now, all EGW did was relate a vision. I imagine it was the vision of the shut door. At that time, she did not understand its meaning so when Turner had the same misunderstanding, they both were in the same boat of misunderstanding the vision. That's all. Later, when she understood more, she backed away from her incorrect understanding. That is laudable.

Originally Posted by Joe Turner, Advent Mirror 1845

But can ANY sinner be converted if the door is SHUT? Of course they cannot, though changes that may appear to be conversions may take place.... But to think of laboring to convert the great masses of the world at such a time, would be as idle as it would have been for the Israelited, when they were down by the red sea, to have turned about to convert the Egyptians. It would be labor lost, to say nothing of the danger we might incur upon our own souls
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That's what Joe Turner understood "The shut door" to be......
...And Ellen was in a state of ecstasy once she spilled the beans of her vision to Joe.
...Because her vision agreed with Joe????

you are twisting words. It was not her vision that agreed with Joe. It was her misunderstanding of the vision that agreed with Joe's misunderstanding.

Did Joe Turner NOT understand what the shut door really was?

apparently not.

Let's see how you answer my answers before I start to heap on even more visions....
...And Ellen's understanding of what the shut door was between 1844 and 1851.

heap away, then. But unless you can make a distinction between what the vision was about and what the early misunderstanding of it was, it won't help to heap on more statements that can be explained just by recognizing the distinctions.

And thanks for talking about this with me Laodicean.

you are welcome, Pythons. As I've said before, if there is disagreement re EGW, we don't need to discuss theology based on her. The Bible is sufficient

 

[Pythons]

Pythons, you need to quote an EGW vision where God "shew" her, affirming her mistaken understanding that the shut door meant no one else would be saved.

You need to make distinctions, or else only confusion will result.

Within the time hack between 1844 & 1851 the ONLY meaning of the Shut Door...
...Was that the opportunity for salvation was OVER.
...For those who rejected the Advent message.
...Examples following.

We have DONE our work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a fomal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR; we can ONLY stir ONE ANOTHER up to be patient; and be diligent to make OUR calling and election sure.

From the ascension to the shutting of the door in October , 1844, Jesus stood with widespread arms of love, and mercy; read to receive and plead the cause of ever sinner who would come to God by him.

I belive the work is of God, and is given to comfort and strengthen his scattered, torn and pealed people, SINCE the closing up of our work FOR THE WORLD in October 1844

Now, here is Ellen White telling us exactly the meaning of the "shut door"...

After the passing of the time of expectation in 1844, Adventists STILL BELIEVED the Saviour's coming to be very near; they held that they had reached an important crisis, and that the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased...........Or as they expressed it, 'the door of mercy was shut'.

Laodicean, do you agree that between the dates of 1844 & 1851...
...The ONLY definition of the Shut Door is what I posted above?
...As in-between those times the statements I've posted were the ONLY understanding of the shut door?

Distinction 1: There was indeed a shut door shown EGW in vision, and the correct understanding of this shut door was that the "door" had closed to the timeline of the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism, and a door was opened to the timeline of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism.

Distinction 2: There was also, for a few years, an incorrect understanding of that same shut-door vision; that it meant no more people could be saved after 1844.

perhaps a summary of events would better help identify what happened here....
...Word To The Little Flock ( W. T. T. L. F. )

In December 1844 Ellen White along with EVERYONE in Portland Maine...
...Had given up the midnight cry AND "shut door" ( W.T.T. L. F page 22 ).

Ellen claims God "shew her" the trials of the Advent people...
...And via THIS vision the faith in the midnight cry AND shut door is re-established.

I have volume 1 Early Writings by Ellen White whereas she describes this 1st vision....
...Therefore we will compare that with W.T.T.L.F. to establish some facts.

On this path the Advent people were traveling to the city, which was at the farther end of the patch. They had a bright light set up behind them at the beginning of the patch WHICH AN ANGEL TOLD ME WAS THE MIDNIGHT CRY [ midnight cry re-established via vision ]...............Other's rashly denied the light behind them and said it was not God that led them ou so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus and fell off the patch into the dark and wicked world below.

Now, read the last couple lines of that quote the way it initially came off the press for the January 24, 1846 Day Star.

The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO GET ON THE PATH AGAIN AND GO TO THE CITY AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.

I've quoted an Ellen White Vision where she said God told her the shut door was valid...
...And I've produced enough quotes from that time hack to demonstrate.
...The traditional meaning of the shut door was the ONLY meaning of it.

If God actually gave Ellen her 1st vision then why, after the early Adventists started to actually bring new members into their church did the denominational authority hack and slice whole sentences out of these visions that came from God?

You do realize the part above highlighted in red explicitly states....
...Ellen said God said "no more sinners would be converted", right.
...That's part of the vision as much as anything else in it.

there are indeed detailed descriptions of both understandings of what the shut door was.

1. There are detailed descriptions of the correct meaning of the shut door in the sanctuary timeline, which was shown EGW in vision.

2. And there are detailed descriptions of the incorrect understanding of this shut door, which EGW eventually said that she had never had a vision affirming this incorrect understanding.

Between the dispair of 1844 and 1851 Ellen used her prophetic gift....
...To bludgeon the flock into affirmation of the traditional understanding of the shut door.
...Because in that time hack the traditional understanding was the ONLY understanding.

Ellen's letter to John Norton Loughborough in 1874, is that the one?
...The period we will be inspecting is previous to 1874.
...Because that's the time hack Ellen used her prophetic gift.
...To establish shut door teaching.

once again, that is your perspective. My perspective is that EGW had a vision about a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. She, along with others, did not understand its meaning at first, but later she retracted her misunderstanding as she understood more.

Like I said, there was no other meaning at that time....
..And you have Ellen, in her 1st vision affirming the traditional shut door.

Biblical writers did not always understand their visions, either. "And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel 8:27.

Come on now! Just like Daniel Ellen had an angel tell her what was what...
...And the angel told Ellen both the shut door & midnight cry were true.
...And THAT was what caused Ellen to again believe both.
...Along with approx 60 other individuals who accepted her vision as valid.

what is the traditional belief of the shut door? That the door to the holy place was closed and the door to the most holy place was opened. That is the traditional SDA belief. So are you saying that EGW was wrong to support this belief?

The ONLY belief on the shut door was that subsequent to 1844....
...NO ONE ELSE could be saved because the door of salvation was shut.

What was the error that was shown her in vision?

According to her vision the error was that Ellen and the band in Portland...
...Had "given up" on the midnight cry AND "shut door".
...I just demonstrated it.

in error for rejecting what, the true understanding of the shut door, or the erroneous understanding of the shut door?

Ellen gave up the shut door and midnight cry there was no other meaning to either term....
...Which is why that group of Adventists did not witness to other people.
...Within that time hack.
...Which includes Ellen's 1st vision.

 

[Pythons]

once again, you are juxtaposing. "those ministers." She refers to the ones who mocked and ridiculed those who were looking forward to Jesus' return in 1844. She was not lambasting those who "agreed with repenting and living holy lives but were against the setting of a specific time..." You are making up stuff now.

And "lambasts" is also your word, revealing the same prejudice you demonstrate as in your use of the word "bludgeon."

Yes, I can provide a quote for you.

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit, down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. No man knoweth the day and the hour, was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected on the use made of the text by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming; but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test; for they were not walking in the humble path laid out by him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power to the people aroused them, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, What must I do to be saved. But these shepherds stepped between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, and cried, Peace, peace, when there was no peace. I saw that angels of God had marked it all, and the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. Those who loved their ease, and were content with their distance from God, would not be aroused from their carnal security. {1SG 134.1}

According to Ellen "everyone" from the minister in the pulpit to the reckless sinner....
...Had zero issue with preaching the 2nd Coming ONLY the unBiblical teaching.
...Of "definite time"

Everyone, from the Minister in the pulpit to the reckless sinner who objected to definite time...
...were united with Satan because they rejected what Scripture told them to reject.

I wish I was making it up, unfortunately I'm not.

actually, it says they will not know the day or the hour, not the season. So I imagine the Millerites felt justified in knowing at least the season. Unfortunately, they fixed a day as well. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes.

Acts 1:7 "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

no, you just demonstrated that she had a vision about a shut door. You have not demonstrated that she refused to change her understanding of the meaning of the shut door.

You are not understanding me. I'm not saying Ellen didn't change her understanding...
...I'm saying that she used a vision "from God" to teach the ONLY meaning the shut door had.
...Between 1844 and 1851.
...And when she realized that was false she simply edited out the part of the vision where God said the Shut door ( as she understood it ) was true.

That's what I'm saying.

there was indeed only one misunderstanding of the meaning of the shut door, and this lasted for a few years. Do you believe in a progressive understanding of truth?

I fully believe in the "development of doctrine"....
...What we are talking about is not that, not by a long shot.

I am not suggesting anything. These are all your suggestions, and I am trying to clarify them for you. In 1874, EGW redefined her understanding, and I'm not sure when that redefinition first occurred. Maybe sometime in 1850-51, but so what? We progress in understanding truth.

I can accept that, thanks for being honest about it.....
...Part of Ellen's re-definition was editing out what God told her.
...That she in turn told others & promulgated as truth.

And are we allowed to grow in truth or not?

Certainly, I'm not against that and believe that's how it works.

So when EGW writes, "that most of the Advent people believed AS WE DO that there was a shut door in '44," she is not referring to her early erroneous belief that the door was shut on the rest of the world forever, and she makes it clear she received no vision affirming such a belief, as you say. But she did receive visions affirming that there was a shut door in '44. It just was not the kind of shut door that you and the early Adventists believed.

Of course not, not at the time she wrote that....
...This is why it was required to hack out affirmations she did believe it.
...Which was part of the vision she had in 1844 where God via an angel told her it was so.

and this is where you are incorrect. God never showed her that her incorrect understanding of the shut door was correct. And she herself denies that He ever did. How much more do you want?

In December of 1844 everyone who was part of the Adventist movement was in dispair.....
...Ellen as well has her husband writes that she had GAVE UP both the midnight cry and shut door.
...UNTIL God "shew her" in vision that both are truth.
...From 44 - 51 Ellen preaches that aside from the Advent band.
...The world was lost.

In Ellen's letter to J.N.L. she states,

But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted

In December of 1844 Ellen said the Lord shew her that the Adventists who rejected the midnight cry and shut door...
...Joined the rest of the world which God "HAD" ( past tense ) rejected.
...That is exactly what the vision said.

Ellen again affirmed the "shut door" in another vision she claimed to have...
...On the Sabbath, March 24, 1848.

I will now write you the vision God gave me on the sabbath, the 24th of March. We had a glorious meeting. I was taken off in vision. I saw the commandments of God and the SHUT DOOR could not be separated.....I saw that as God worked for his people, Satan would also work......My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of the souls for sinners as USED TO BE. I looked but could not see it for the time for their salvation is PAST. Dear Brother and Sister, I have now written the vision God gave me. I am tired sitting so long. Our position looks very clear. We know we have the truth, the midnight cry is behind us, the DOOR WAS SHUT IN 1844 and Jesus is soon to step out from between God and man.
Letter 5-1849 Ellen White Estate

remember now, all EGW did was relate a vision. I imagine it was the vision of the shut door. At that time, she did not understand its meaning so when Turner had the same misunderstanding, they both were in the same boat of misunderstanding the vision. That's all. Later, when she understood more, she backed away from her incorrect understanding. That is laudable.

Ok, so you are saying that Ellen affirmed the Traditional meaning of the shut door.....
....Until she eventually realized that understanding was false.
....Then she started teaching the true meaning of shut door.
....Which involved the removal of specific things God told her previously.

you are twisting words. It was not her vision that agreed with Joe. It was her misunderstanding of the vision that agreed with Joe's misunderstanding.

The vision was given to Ellen, right? What I'm hearing you say is that...
...Anything Ellen wrote as a vision of God is subject to interpretation.
...And Ellen simply didn't affirm correctly what her vision was intended to teach?

Forgive me, I'm trying to understand exactly what authority you are claiming for White....
...How it works and what can be interpreted out of those writings as being accurate.
...Who's job is it to say just what Ellen understood and put on paper is really what visions taught?

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Pythons, you need to quote an EGW vision where God "shew" her, affirming her mistaken understanding that the shut door meant no one else would be saved.

You need to make distinctions, or else only confusion will result.
​

Within the time hack between 1844 & 1851 the ONLY meaning of the Shut Door...
...Was that the opportunity for salvation was OVER.
...For those who rejected the Advent message.

Pythons, I don't think we have an argument anymore. I agree with you that the only meaning of the shut door, held by Adventists (not SDAs) for several years, was that the opportunity for salvation for all was forever past.

...Examples following.


Originally Posted by William Miller, November 18, 1844

We have DONE our work in warning sinners, and in trying to awake a fomal church. God in his providence has SHUT THE DOOR; we can ONLY stir ONE ANOTHER up to be patient; and be diligent to make OUR calling and election sure.
​

​

please note that this was in 1844, and EGW's first vision on a shut door was, as you say, in 1847. For sure, in 1849, she had a vision about the meaning of the open and shut doors.

So Miller's understanding of a shut door was not based on her vision. He apparently propagated a shut-door concept that was embraced by the Adventists of that day, including EGW, in her non-prophetic moments.

Originally Posted by A word to the Little flock, 1847, p.2

From the ascension to the shutting of the door in October , 1844, Jesus stood with widespread arms of love, and mercy; read to receive and plead the cause of ever sinner who would come to God by him.
​

​

and in context, what about the open door that she also saw in vision? One door was closed, another opened to sinners. This is just a description of a timeline of prophecy where the holy-apartment symbolism of the sanctuary ends and the most-holy apartment symbolism of the sanctuary begins. Salvation is still open to future generations.

Originally Posted by Joseph Bates, word to the little flock, 1847

I belive the work is of God, and is given to comfort and strengthen his scattered, torn and pealed people, SINCE the closing up of our work FOR THE WORLD in October 1844
​

Now, here is Ellen White telling us exactly the meaning of the "shut door"...


Originally Posted by Ellen White, spirit of prophecy volume 4 p. 268

After the passing of the time of expectation in 1844, Adventists STILL BELIEVED the Saviour's coming to be very near; they held that they had reached an important crisis, and that the work of Christ as man's intercessor before God had ceased...........Or as they expressed it, 'the door of mercy was shut'.
​

​

she is not telling what the meaning is. She is telling the history of the early Adventists (not SDAs) and what they believed at a certain period of time.

Laodicean, do you agree that between the dates of 1844 & 1851...
...The ONLY definition of the Shut Door is what I posted above?

I agree with you that the only definition of the shut door was an erroneous understanding of the shut door, and this lasted up until EGW was given visions in, what -- 1847, 1849? -- as to the correct meaning of the shut door.

...As in-between those times the statements I've posted were the ONLY understanding of the shut door?

I agree with you that for a while the erroneous understanding was the ONLY understanding of the shut door. I'm not sure I agree that the dates extended to 1850-51, since there is record of her receiving a vision as to the correct meaning of the shut door.

Early Writings records that on March 24, 1849, EGW had a vision as follows: "I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Rev. 3:7,8) ; and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God's people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question.

I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy place, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope; for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened."

And it expands further, but I'll stop quoting here because I want to include an explanation EGW gives in review of her own writings in this book. She says, "As I have given a brief sketch of my experience and views, published in 1851, it seems to be my duty to notice some points in that little work, also to give more recent views."

And one of her clarifying statements was, "2. The view of 'The Open and Shut Door,' on pages 42-45 was given in 1849. The application of Revelation 3:7,8 to the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's ministry was entirely new to me. I had never heard the idea advanced by anyone. Now as the subject of the sanctuary is being clearly understood, the application is seen in its force and beauty."

Apparently, the only view of the shut door -- that there was no more hope for the rest of the world -- was held up until 1849, when EGW was given a vision explaining the correct meaning of the shut door.

So I agree with you that up until 1849 -- maybe even as early as 1847 -- the only understanding of the shut door was an erroneous one.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Distinction 1: There was indeed a shut door shown EGW in vision, and the correct understanding of this shut door was that the "door" had closed to the timeline of the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism, and a door was opened to the timeline of the most holy place in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism.

Distinction 2: There was also, for a few years, an incorrect understanding of that same shut-door vision; that it meant no more people could be saved after 1844.
​

perhaps a summary of events would better help identify what happened here....
...Word To The Little Flock ( W. T. T. L. F. )

In December 1844 Ellen White along with EVERYONE in Portland Maine...
...Had given up the midnight cry AND "shut door" ( W.T.T. L. F page 22 ).

Ellen claims God "shew her" the trials of the Advent people...
...And via THIS vision the faith in the midnight cry AND shut door is re-established.

I have volume 1 Early Writings by Ellen White whereas she describes this 1st vision....
...Therefore we will compare that with W.T.T.L.F. to establish some facts.


Originally Posted by Volume 1 of Early Writings Ellen White

On this path the Advent people were traveling to the city, which was at the farther end of the patch. They had a bright light set up behind them at the beginning of the patch WHICH AN ANGEL TOLD ME WAS THE MIDNIGHT CRY [ midnight cry re-established via vision ]...............Other's rashly denied the light behind them and said it was not God that led them ou so far. The light behind them went out, leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and lost sight of the mark and of Jesus and fell off the patch into the dark and wicked world below.
​

Now, read the last couple lines of that quote the way it initially came off the press for the January 24, 1846 Day Star.


Originally Posted by Ellen's 1st vision w/out any tampering

The light behind them went out leaving their feet in perfect darkness, and they stumbled and got their eyes off the mark and lost sight of Jesus, and fell off the path down in the dark and wicked world below. It was JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO GET ON THE PATH AGAIN AND GO TO THE CITY AS ALL THE WICKED WORLD WHICH GOD HAD REJECTED.
​

I've quoted an Ellen White Vision where she said God told her the shut door was valid...

yes, you have, but you have quoted it out of context. The shut door was valid, but only in the correct interpretation given much later, not the erroneous understanding that existed for a few years after 1844.

...And I've produced enough quotes from that time hack to demonstrate.
...The traditional meaning of the shut door was the ONLY meaning of it.

yes, for a period of time, you are correct.

(Breaking this post again, for length.)

 

[Laodicean]

If God actually gave Ellen her 1st vision then why, after the early Adventists started to actually bring new members into their church did the denominational authority hack and slice whole sentences out of these visions that came from God?

if SDAs recognize that EGW had an incorrect understanding, and that some of her statements might lead to an incorrect understanding, then there is no harm in removing statements that might lead astray.

Personally, I would have left that statement in -- if it were truly there in the first place -- because it can be understood in the light of a particular time in history, not to all time following it.

You do realize the part above highlighted in red explicitly states....
...Ellen said God said "no more sinners would be converted", right.
...That's part of the vision as much as anything else in it.

it does not say that no more sinners would be converted. Those are your words and your interpretation. It merely says that, at that time, those who rejected the truth of the prophecy could not come back to it again, and all the wicked world -- whoever those might have been at the time -- were rejected by God.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

there are indeed detailed descriptions of both understandings of what the shut door was.

1. There are detailed descriptions of the correct meaning of the shut door in the sanctuary timeline, which was shown EGW in vision.

2. And there are detailed descriptions of the incorrect understanding of this shut door, which EGW eventually said that she had never had a vision affirming this incorrect understanding.
​

Between the dispair of 1844 and 1851 Ellen used her prophetic gift....
...To bludgeon the flock into affirmation of the traditional understanding of the shut door.
...Because in that time hack the traditional understanding was the ONLY understanding.

I don't know about the bludgeoning of the flock but yes, for a time, that was the only understanding....until God gave EGW visions on the correct meaning of the shut door in 1847, 1849.

Originally Posted by Pythons

Ellen's letter to John Norton Loughborough in 1874, is that the one?
...The period we will be inspecting is previous to 1874.
...Because that's the time hack Ellen used her prophetic gift.
...To establish shut door teaching.
​

​

not correct. EGW did not use her prophetic gift to establish the erroneous shut door teaching. I have demonstrated this to you with quotes, so let's not go there again, okay?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

once again, that is your perspective. My perspective is that EGW had a vision about a shut door in the heavenly sanctuary symbolism. She, along with others, did not understand its meaning at first, but later she retracted her misunderstanding as she understood more.
​

Like I said, there was no other meaning at that time....
..And you have Ellen, in her 1st vision affirming the traditional shut door.

she did not receive any vision affirming the traditional shut door. She may have recited a vision of a shut door to Joe Turner, which they both misinterpreted, but she never received a vision affirming that their incorrect understanding was correct.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Biblical writers did not always understand their visions, either. "And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it." Daniel 8:27.
​

Come on now! Just like Daniel Ellen had an angel tell her what was what...
...And the angel told Ellen both the shut door & midnight cry were true.
...And THAT was what caused Ellen to again believe both.
...Along with approx 60 other individuals who accepted her vision as valid.

Not until 1847 and 1849 did an angel explain the shut door to EGW. Until then, they did not understand. Likewise, Daniel did not have an immediate explanation of his vision of the 2300 days. It was later that understanding was given to him.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

what is the traditional belief of the shut door? That the door to the holy place was closed and the door to the most holy place was opened. That is the traditional SDA belief. So are you saying that EGW was wrong to support this belief?
​

The ONLY belief on the shut door was that subsequent to 1844....
...NO ONE ELSE could be saved because the door of salvation was shut.

right. No argument there. We are on the same page, except as to how long this erroneous understanding was held.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

What was the error that was shown her in vision?
​

According to her vision the error was that Ellen and the band in Portland...
...Had "given up" on the midnight cry AND "shut door".
...I just demonstrated it.

please quote the particular vision that says they were in error to have given up on the midnight cry AND the shut door. If it is the one that you quoted a portion in red, then that vision does not say what you say it says.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

in error for rejecting what, the true understanding of the shut door, or the erroneous understanding of the shut door?
​

Ellen gave up the shut door and midnight cry there was no other meaning to either term....
...Which is why that group of Adventists did not witness to other people.
...Within that time hack.
...Which includes Ellen's 1st vision.

no, it doesn't include Ellen's first vision. Her first vision did not talk about a "shut door" at all.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

once again, you are juxtaposing. "those ministers." She refers to the ones who mocked and ridiculed those who were looking forward to Jesus' return in 1844. She was not lambasting those who "agreed with repenting and living holy lives but were against the setting of a specific time..." You are making up stuff now.

And "lambasts" is also your word, revealing the same prejudice you demonstrate as in your use of the word "bludgeon."
​

Yes, I can provide a quote for you.


Originally Posted by Ellen White

The preaching of definite time called forth great opposition from all classes, from the minister in the pulpit, down to the most reckless, heaven-daring sinner. No man knoweth the day and the hour, was heard from the hypocritical minister and the bold scoffer. Neither would be instructed and corrected on the use made of the text by those who were pointing to the year when they believed the prophetic periods would run out, and to the signs which showed Christ near, even at the doors. Many shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming; but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near. They knew that their unchristian lives would not stand the test; for they were not walking in the humble path laid out by him. These false shepherds stood in the way of the work of God. The truth spoken in its convincing power to the people aroused them, and like the jailer, they began to inquire, What must I do to be saved. But these shepherds stepped between the truth and the people, and preached smooth things to lead them from the truth. They united with Satan and his angels, and cried, Peace, peace, when there was no peace. I saw that angels of God had marked it all, and the garments of those unconsecrated shepherds were covered with the blood of souls. Those who loved their ease, and were content with their distance from God, would not be aroused from their carnal security. {1SG 134.1}
​

According to Ellen "everyone" from the minister in the pulpit to the reckless sinner....

She was referring to "hypocritical minister." She was also referring to "shepherds of the flock, who professed to love Jesus, said they had no opposition to the preaching of Christ's coming; but they objected to the definite time. God's all-seeing eye read their hearts. They did not love Jesus near."

You are referring to those who, in your mind, were genuine, not hypocrites. She was referring to those who were not genuine. You and EGW are referring to two different classes of people. Don't confuse them.

...Had zero issue with preaching the 2nd Coming ONLY the unBiblical teaching.
...Of "definite time"

to those who had no issue with preaching the 2nd coming, only the unBiblical teaching of definite time, EGW was not speaking. She, in her own words, was speaking to the hypocrites and the professed lovers of Jesus who used "definite time" as their excuse for rejecting the anticipation of the soon return of Jesus. She was shown more deeply into the hearts of some of those objectors, than you or I can see.

Everyone, from the Minister in the pulpit to the reckless sinner who objected to definite time...
...were united with Satan because they rejected what Scripture told them to reject.

I wish I was making it up, unfortunately I'm not.

the word "everyone" like the word "forever" is relative and contextual.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

actually, it says they will not know the day or the hour, not the season. So I imagine the Millerites felt justified in knowing at least the season. Unfortunately, they fixed a day as well. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes.
​

Acts 1:7 "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

the context here is the promise of being baptized with the Holy Ghost, and the disciples questioned whether the kingdom would be restored to Israel at that time. The answer was as seen in your quote above.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

no, you just demonstrated that she had a vision about a shut door. You have not demonstrated that she refused to change her understanding of the meaning of the shut door.
​

You are not understanding me. I'm not saying Ellen didn't change her understanding...
...I'm saying that she used a vision "from God" to teach the ONLY meaning the shut door had.
...Between 1844 and 1851.

and I have given you evidence that she did not use a vision from God to teach the erroneous meaning of the shut door. And I've given you a direct quote from her that says that she never received such a vision affirming such an erroneous view.

...And when she realized that was false she simply edited out the part of the vision where God said the Shut door ( as she understood it ) was true.

That's what I'm saying.

I thought you said the church edited out that statement? Now you are saying that she edited it out. Which is it?

And for the record, it is the right thing to do, if one realizes that one expressed something incorrectly, to remove that statement so that it no longer leads people astray. Do you believe in admitting your mistakes? Or are you saying that prophets can never make mistakes in their nonprophetic moments?

Originally Posted by Laodicea

there was indeed only one misunderstanding of the meaning of the shut door, and this lasted for a few years. Do you believe in a progressive understanding of truth?
​

I fully believe in the "development of doctrine"....
...What we are talking about is not that, not by a long shot.

yes, I know. Your prejudice will not permit you to view EGW in any other light than that she was dishonest and prone to bludgeoning and lambasting others.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

I am not suggesting anything. These are all your suggestions, and I am trying to clarify them for you. In 1874, EGW redefined her understanding, and I'm not sure when that redefinition first occurred. Maybe sometime in 1850-51, but so what? We progress in understanding truth.
​

I can accept that, thanks for being honest about it.....
...Part of Ellen's re-definition was editing out what God told her.
...That she in turn told others & promulgated as truth.

Okay, I hear you. But I view her differently.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

And are we allowed to grow in truth or not?
​

Certainly, I'm not against that and believe that's how it works.

but you don't believe that that is how it worked for EGW or the SDA church that came into existence in 1863?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

So when EGW writes, "that most of the Advent people believed AS WE DO that there was a shut door in '44," she is not referring to her early erroneous belief that the door was shut on the rest of the world forever, and she makes it clear she received no vision affirming such a belief, as you say. But she did receive visions affirming that there was a shut door in '44. It just was not the kind of shut door that you and the early Adventists believed.
​

Of course not, not at the time she wrote that....
...This is why it was required to hack out affirmations she did believe it.
...Which was part of the vision she had in 1844 where God via an angel told her it was so.

we are beating a dead horse now, but no, God never told anyone, via an angel, in 1844, that there was a shut door to salvation for the world.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

and this is where you are incorrect. God never showed her that her incorrect understanding of the shut door was correct. And she herself denies that He ever did. How much more do you want?
​

In December of 1844 everyone who was part of the Adventist movement was in dispair.....
...Ellen as well has her husband writes that she had GAVE UP both the midnight cry and shut door.
...UNTIL God "shew her" in vision that both are truth.

please quote exactly where, in an 1844 vision, God "shew" EGW that the shut door (end of salvation) was true....or that a shut door was even mentioned."

(breaking for length)

 

[Laodicean]

...From 44 - 51 Ellen preaches that aside from the Advent band.
...The world was lost.

In Ellen's letter to J.N.L. she states,


Originally Posted by Ellen White

But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted
​

In December of 1844 Ellen said the Lord shew her that the Adventists who rejected the midnight cry and shut door...
...Joined the rest of the world which God "HAD" ( past tense ) rejected.
...That is exactly what the vision said.

yes, and I've clarified that the rejection of the "world" was for that moment in time only. God never gave a vision saying that salvation was past for all time in the future. That is what you have read into it.

Ellen again affirmed the "shut door" in another vision she claimed to have...
...On the Sabbath, March 24, 1848.


Originally Posted by Ellen White, letter to Brother and sister Hastings

I will now write you the vision God gave me on the sabbath, the 24th of March. We had a glorious meeting. I was taken off in vision. I saw the commandments of God and the SHUT DOOR could not be separated.....I saw that as God worked for his people, Satan would also work......My accompanying angel bade me look for the travail of the souls for sinners as USED TO BE. I looked but could not see it for the time for their salvation is PAST. Dear Brother and Sister, I have now written the vision God gave me. I am tired sitting so long. Our position looks very clear. We know we have the truth, the midnight cry is behind us, the DOOR WAS SHUT IN 1844 and Jesus is soon to step out from between God and man.
Letter 5-1849 Ellen White Estate
​

​

ah, so here's another vision given in 1848. So it looks like from between 1847 and 1849, the true meaning of the shut door was beginning to be revealed. Thanks for the quote.

Anyway, apparently, the time for the salvation of certain of those who lived in 1844, that time was past. It nowhere says that salvation was past for the future. EGW says the door was shut (clarifiied, as we see, to refer to the door of the holy-place apartment timeline) and that Jesus is SOON to step out from between God and man. If "soon," then it had not happened yet. Which means that Jesus was still mediating between God and unreconciled man. She could not be saying that salvation was past if Jesus was still mediating. The difference now is that mediation was occurring in the most-holy apartment timeline of the sanctuary symbolism.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

remember now, all EGW did was relate a vision. I imagine it was the vision of the shut door. At that time, she did not understand its meaning so when Turner had the same misunderstanding, they both were in the same boat of misunderstanding the vision. That's all. Later, when she understood more, she backed away from her incorrect understanding. That is laudable.
​

Ok, so you are saying that Ellen affirmed the Traditional meaning of the shut door.....

yes, but not through a vision. Through her own nonprophetic understanding.

....Until she eventually realized that understanding was false.

correct. She was still human and could make mistakes when not in the prophetic mode.

....Then she started teaching the true meaning of shut door.

right, after 1847, 1848, 1849, as her understanding increased from vision to vision.

....Which involved the removal of specific things God told her previously.

God never specifically told her that her erroneous understanding was correct. That is the distinction I am trying to bring home to you here.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

you are twisting words. It was not her vision that agreed with Joe. It was her misunderstanding of the vision that agreed with Joe's misunderstanding.
​

The vision was given to Ellen, right?

Right. A vision about a shut door was given... later. Until then, Miller's concept of a shut door was held. And until then, EGW held to Miller's view of the door of salvation being shut forever. She could move only as fast as light was given to her.

What I'm hearing you say is that...
...Anything Ellen wrote as a vision of God is subject to interpretation.

yes. As is any vision given to prophets in the Bible is subject to interpretation. Our interpretation needs to be guided by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it takes longer than other times to finally "get the truth."

...And Ellen simply didn't affirm correctly what her vision was intended to teach?

EGW is not the infallible interpreter of what God shows her. She is just the channel through which the vision is given. The Holy Spirit is the infallible interpreter of all that comes from God.

Forgive me, I'm trying to understand exactly what authority you are claiming for White....

I am claiming the same authority for her that I do for Biblical prophets. They were given visions. They recorded their visions, sometimes not understanding what they were recording, and it is up to the Holy Spirit to bring understanding as to the meaning of what the prophets write.

...How it works and what can be interpreted out of those writings as being accurate.

the recording of the visions are as accurate as the human element can be in expressing what was seen. Understanding comes from guidance from the Holy Spirit when we pray for understanding.

...Who's job is it to say just what Ellen understood and put on paper is really what visions taught?

It is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit to bring to our understanding what God really means to say when He gives visions and they get recorded through the human element.

 

[Laodicean]

Having said all that, Pythons, please know that I'm not trying to get you to accept EGW. I am only responding to your points, since you bring them up. We can dispense with EGW in our discussions if that would clear the table for more fruitful discussion.

 

[Joe67]

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. KJV

John 8:42-45
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. KJV

John 8:46-47
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. KJV

We should test our own hearts by this counsel. Judge nothing before the time.

Joe

 

[Pythons]

No problem Lao, I had just read over some of the things mentioned about Ellen White...
...And this issue was one of the things I checked into.

From the Tradition I come from we believe in the development of Doctrine...
...Which would include a deeper understanding of those Doctrines as time goes on.
...A "re-defined" doctrine is just another way of saying the previous one was wrong.
...Something you will not find in Catholicism.

As I understand what we've been looking at here a man named William Miller....
...Believed he had calculated the exact date of the 2nd Coming.
...Miller's message was; 'Repent, Jesus is coming in Oct 43 / 44'.
...That was IT, there was no other message.

When Jesus didn't show up in 43 a couple of people started to crunch numbers and offered a new view....
...George Storrs ( proto Jehovah's Witness ) & Sam Snow added to Miller's message.
... The 7th month movement & midnight cry.
...The "shut door" Doctrine IS / was the meaning of the midnight cry ( Matt 25, 1-13 ).

George Storrs and Sam Snow figured ( like Miller ) that a day equated to a year...
...Therefore midnight must mean 1/2 a year so the calculation was made.
...Starting the prophetic schema at Miller's initial date through to the Adventist Campmeeting.
...With the terminus being 22 October 1844 for the "Midnight cry".

To boil it down George Storrs & Sam Snow promulgated the view that the 5 WISE virgins...
...Represented those who accepted the Millerite message & 7th month movement.
...EVERYONE ELSE who rejected 22 October 1844 represented the foolish virgins.
...This is where I came up with the time hack for our discussion ( start point ).

The "Adventists" which were left subsequent to 1844 split in half....
...With approx 50% being shut door Adventists & the other 50% open door Adventists.
...What became the Seventh Day Adventists came from the shut door group.
...Of which Ellen White was certainly a member.

Now we get to where the rubber mets the road with Ellen's statement as to her prophetic gift...
...Ellen White explicitly stated she believed in the shut door traditional doctrine.
...But this was previous to her FIRST VISION.
...And that her visions corrected the error.
...I'm guessing we are in total agreement up to this point?

On August 24, 1874 Ellen writes to J.N.L under the fear of God.....
...& swears ( offers her testimony ) that she NEVER preached the classic shut door.
...OR exercised the spirit of prophecy to that end.
...I'm guessing we are in total agreement up to this point?

Ellen's 1st vision is printed in both the Day Star ( Jan 24, 1846 ) & Broadside ( April 6, 1846 )...
...If this was a 'real vision' & Ellen's stated reason for getting it is also real.
...Then I'm having a difficult time in understanding why you are not in total agreement with me?

Imagine yourself as part of the 7th month movement in 1844....
...You had hung every hope on 22 October 1844 from George Storrs message at Campmeeting in August 1844.
...You had read the Sacred Scripture of Matthew 25 over and over.
...& considered yourself part of the 5 wise virgins.

22 October 1844 comes and goes and by December of the same year you are literally sick, depressed and had given up...
...You are in Portland Maine with the other people who had accepted the 7th month movement.
...You are all sick, greatly depressed and in massive dispair.
...All of the people you are holding up with have also "given up" the midnight cry.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) describes this time period with great detail....
...And presents a significant problem.

When she received her first vision, Dec 1844, she and ALL the band in Portland Maine, had given up the midnight cry and shut door as being IN THE PAST. It was THEN that the Lord shew her in vision, the error into which she and the band in Portland had fallen. She then related her vision to the band, and about sixty confessed their error and acknowledged their 7th month experience to be the work of God.

Now, you ( along with the rest of the people in dispair ) had given up the 7th month Doctrine...
...The 7th month Doctrine being Salvation NOT possible for "anyone".
...Other then those who accepted Miller's message AND the "midnight cry".
...Promulgated by George Storrs.

A woman that's part of the group in Portland ( Ellen White - who also had given up )...
...Claims to have had a vision from God which RE-ESTABLISHED the midnight cry.
...After hearing the vision directly from Ellen White you also re-establish the doctrine of the shut door.
...Along with around 60 or so other people.

Let's come back to the present time now and again read Ellen's letter to J.N.L....
...Looking at exactly what Ellen said in that letter.
...Do you now see what I'm trying to show you?

Ellen stated ( in truth ) that PRIOR to her 1st vision she along with the other shut door Adventists....
...Believed that on 22 October 1844 the door of mercy was forever shut to the world.

What she failed to say was that by December of 1844 she, along with everyone in Portland Maine...
...HAD GIVEN UP the 7th month & midnight cry AKA "shut door".
...And it WAS - IN FACT a vision she got from God which re-established her belief in both.
...& once she promulgated her vision - other people who had given up the shut door - ONCE again accepted it.

What follows the time period of December 1844 was very aggressive promulgation of the traditional shut door Doctrine...
...With Ellen at the helm of the ship.

Joe Turner was a fanatical, classic midnight cry ( shut door advocate ) and after Ellen's two visions on that subject....
...She was estatic to find out she agreed with Mr. Turner 100%.
...& she said that in 1847!
...1844, 1845, 1846 & 1847.

It was with fear and trembling I told him [JOE TURNER] all. After I got through he said he had told out the SAME last evening. I rejoiced, for I had expected he was coming out against me. For all the while I had NOT heard any one say what he believed. He said the Lord had sent him to talk the evening before, but as I would not, he meant his children should have the light in some way, so he took him.

Joe Turner was an ultra hard-core 'shut door' advocate - an apex theological predator....
...Ellen White has "another vision" which she recounts to Joe and Joe says God gave him the "same message".
...Ellen was ill the night before so God sent Joe so God's children could have "the light".

No matter how it's presented Lao, Ellen White taught, with great vigor that God showed her in vision...
...That what Joe Turner believed was CONFIRMED by God Himself.
...To me, that's as direct an example of Ellen using a vision to teach something that wasn't true as anything.

If Ellen gets a vision, which is explained to her by an angel....
...And that vision totally agrees with somone who is actively promulgating the shut door.
...And Ellen is happy because she thought Joe would not agree with her.
...There is no way out of it - Ellen taught the classic shut door & used her prophetic gift to do it.

I've found the same sort of thing going on with the Trinity only on a much bigger level....
...Thanks again for spending the time to show me what you believe about Ellen.
...I do appreciate it and wish all the best for you.

 

[Joe67]

The words of Jesus were confusing to those who were of an opposite religious spirit.

It became a controlling desire on the part of a few to trap him in his words. Great effort was made to prove him a false minister.

Yet, Jesus' work was of a different character and process.

Joe

 

[Pythons]

The words of Jesus were confusing to those who were of an opposite religious spirit.

It became a controlling desire on the part of a few to trap him in his words. Great effort was made to prove him a false minister.

Yet, Jesus' work was of a different character and process.

Joe

Are you comparing or contrasting Ellen with Jesus Joe67?
...Forgive me, I wasn't sure what you intended to say.

 

[Joe67]

Are you comparing or contrasting Ellen with Jesus Joe67?
...Forgive me, I wasn't sure what you intended to say.

Pythons,

I was speaking of those who spend a great deal of their gift toward discrediting others who are of a different persuasion.

The spirit of exaggeration prevails in those who seek to discredit their enemies.

Joe

 

[Pythons]

Pythons,

I was speaking of those who spend a great deal of their gift toward discrediting others who are of a different persuasion.

The spirit of exaggeration prevails in those who seek to discredit their enemies.

Joe

In what way do you understand that I've exaggerated the details of the Midnight cry...
...Within the time hack Ellen promulgated that Doctrine?
...I don't view Ellen White or SDA's as my enemy in any event.

 

[Laodicean]

No problem Lao, I had just read over some of the things mentioned about Ellen White...
...And this issue was one of the things I checked into.

From the Tradition I come from we believe in the development of Doctrine...
...Which would include a deeper understanding of those Doctrines as time goes on.
...A "re-defined" doctrine is just another way of saying the previous one was wrong.
...Something you will not find in Catholicism.

Pythons, early Adventists believed that a door had been shut on those who refused to believe in the movement. To a certain extent, this was true, but unfortunately, the early Adventists took this belief too far and claimed that the door of salvation was forever shut to all but those Adventists who still believed in the movment. This belief, started by Miller after 1844, was carried too far and was wrong.

When the Seventh-day Adventist Church was organized in 1863, this wrong belief, that salvation was over, had already been discarded. And this is as it should be. Continuing to cling to a wrong idea benefits no one.

As I understand what we've been looking at here a man named William Miller....
...Believed he had calculated the exact date of the 2nd Coming.
...Miller's message was; 'Repent, Jesus is coming in Oct 43 / 44'.
...That was IT, there was no other message.

actually, his message came to include more. After the disappointment, Miller believed that the door was shut to new conversions, and he propagated this belief to the early Adventists. EGW accepted this view for a while until instructed otherwise in vision.

When Jesus didn't show up in 43 a couple of people started to crunch numbers and offered a new view....
...George Storrs ( proto Jehovah's Witness ) & Sam Snow added to Miller's message.
... The 7th month movement & midnight cry.
...The "shut door" Doctrine IS / was the meaning of the midnight cry ( Matt 25, 1-13 ).

George Storrs and Sam Snow figured ( like Miller ) that a day equated to a year...
...Therefore midnight must mean 1/2 a year so the calculation was made.
...Starting the prophetic schema at Miller's initial date through to the Adventist Campmeeting.
...With the terminus being 22 October 1844 for the "Midnight cry".

To boil it down George Storrs & Sam Snow promulgated the view that the 5 WISE virgins...
...Represented those who accepted the Millerite message & 7th month movement.
...EVERYONE ELSE who rejected 22 October 1844 represented the foolish virgins.
...This is where I came up with the time hack for our discussion ( start point ).

The "Adventists" which were left subsequent to 1844 split in half....
...With approx 50% being shut door Adventists & the other 50% open door Adventists.
...What became the Seventh Day Adventists came from the shut door group.
...Of which Ellen White was certainly a member of.

Now we get to where the rubber mets the road with Ellen's statement as to her prophetic gift...
...Ellen White explicitly stated she believed in the shut door traditional doctrine.
...But this was previous to her FIRST VISION.
...And that her visions corrected the error.
...I'm guessing we are in total agreement up to this point?

no, not quite. EGW believed in the Millerite view of a shut door up until her 1847 vision, when she began to understand the real meaning of the "shut door that no man could open and the open door that no man could shut."

On August 24, 1874 Ellen writes to J.N.L under the fear of God.....
...& swears ( offers her testimony ) that she NEVER preached the classic shut door.
...OR exercised the spirit of prophecy to that end.
...I'm guessing we are in total agreement up to this point?

no, because EGW said that she never was shown in vision that the "classic" shut door belief was a correct belief. Her 1874 letter to JNL does not say that she never preached the Millerite (or classic) version of the shut door. Instead she says that she was never shown in vision that that version was correct. Read back a few posts for reminder of this fact.

Ellen's 1st vision is printed in both the Day Star ( Jan 24, 1846 ) & Broadside ( April 6, 1846 )...
...If this was a 'real vision' & Ellen's stated reason for getting it is also real.
...Then I've having a difficult time in understanding why you are not in total agreement with me?

I'm not in total agreement because the first vision was not even about the shut door, unless you, on your own terms, have decided that the midnight cry equates with the shut door of Miller's understanding. I don't equate the midnight cry with the shut door. I equate it with a genuine spiritual movement to prepare for the second coming of Jesus.

Imagine yourself as part of the 7th month movement in 1844....
...You had hung every hope on 22 October 1844 from George Storrs message at Campmeeting in August 1844.
...You had read the Sacred Scripture of Matthew 25 over and over.
...& considered yourself part of the 5 wise virgins.

22 October 1844 comes and goes and by December of the same year you are literally sick, depressed and had given up...
...You are in Portland Maine with the other people who had accepted the 7th month movement.
...You are all sick, greatly depressed and in massive dispair.
...All of the people you are holding up with have also "given up" the midnight cry.

James White ( Ellen's husband ) describes this time period with great detail....
...And presents a significant problem.

Now, you ( along with the rest of the people in dispair ) had given up the 7th month Doctrine...
...The 7th month Doctrine being Salvation NOT possible for "anyone".
...Other then those who accepted Miller's message AND the "midnight cry".
...Promulgated by George Storrs.

A woman that's part of the group in Portland ( Ellen White - who also had given up )...
...Claims to have had a vision from God which RE-ESTABLISHED the midnight cry.

yes, EGW had a vision that established that the movement that awoke people to repentance and to preparation for the expected soon coming, (the midnight cry), was a genuine movement. There was misunderstanding as to the meaning of the "cleansing of the sanctuary." But the erroneous understanding of the shut door was not part of the midnight cry. After the disappointment, Miller added the concept of a shut door to his previous message of the midnight cry. In that respect, he was wrong for he took it too far.

...After hearing the vision directly from Ellen White you also re-establish the doctrine of the shut door.
...Along with around 60 or so other people.

Hold up. The shut door was not part of the original Millerite message. You said so yourself. Quoting you: "Miller's message was; 'Repent, Jesus is coming in Oct 43 / 44'. ...That was IT, there was no other message."

After the disappointment, the idea of a permanently shut door was added. But what was reestablished was the faith of EGW and a few others that the 1844 movement was a genuine one, moved by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not to deny the experience, but should continue to search and study.

...Let's come back to the present time now and again read Ellen's letter to J.N.L....
...Looking at exactly what Ellen said in that letter.
...Do you now see what I'm trying to show you?

Ellen stated ( in truth ) that PRIOR to her 1st vision she along with the other shut door Adventists....
...Believed that on 22 October 1844 the door of mercy was forever shut to the world.

What she failed to say was that by December of 1844 she, along with everyone in Portland Maine...
...HAD GIVEN UP the 7th month & midnight cry AKA "shut door".

here is where you go off track. The midnight cry was not the shut door doctrine. The midnight cry was, "get ready, Jesus is coming!" You are mixing up the two concepts.

......And it WAS - IN FACT a vision she got from God which re-established her belief in both.

by conflating the midnight cry with the erroneous shut-door doctrine, you manage to make it look like God reestablished her belief in both, when, in fact, what was reestablished was her faith in the genuineness of the movement, even though it had ended in disappointment. The misunderstanding of the shut door just tagged along.

......& once she promulgated her vision - other people who had given up the shut door ONE again accepted it.

they accepted that the 1844 movement was genuine, but nothing in her vision talked about a shut door. The erroneous shut-door view was added by the people. It did not come through a vision.

(breaking for length, once again....)

 

[Laodicean]

....continuing....

...What follows the time period of December 1844 was very aggressive promulgation of the traditional shut door Doctrine...
...With Ellen at the helm of the ship.

I've agreed with you that for a number of years after 1844, a wrong belief was held by many, including EGW, as to the finality of the shut door. But Mrs. White was not at the helm of that particular ship. She just believed incorrectly, along with others, until she was enlightened by visions in 1847, 48, and 49.

...Joe Turner was a fanatical, classic midnight cry ( shut door advocate ) and after Ellen's two visions on that subject....
...She was estatic to find out she agreed with Mr. Turner 100%.
...& she said that in 1847!
...1844, 1845, 1846 & 1847.

once again, EGW merely related the vision of the shut door of the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary symbolism, and both her incorrect understanding and Turner's incorrect understanding interpreted the vision wrongly. It took succeeding visions for EGW to finally understand the true meaning of the shut door of the heavenly sanctuary.

...Joe Turner was an ultra hard-core 'shut door' advocate - an apex theological predator....
...Ellen White has "another vision" which she recounts to Joe and Joe says God gave him the "same message".
...Ellen was ill the night before so God sent Joe so God's children could have "the light".

No matter how it's presented Lao, Ellen White taught, with great vigor that God showed her in vision...
...That what Joe Turner believed was CONFIRMED by God Himself.

Pythons, EGW received no vision that confirmed that her belief and Joe Turner's belief was correct. You need to stick with the facts.

Look, why don't I let her speak for herself. In 1883, EGW responded to the charge that she had taught, in the early post-1844 years, that there was no more salvation for sinners. She quotes the passage from her first vision: "It was just as impossible for them to get on the path again and go to the city, as all the wicked world which God had rejected. They fell all the way along the path one after another."

And here is her comment on that issue: ""For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold in common with the Advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

"I am still a believer in the shut door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

"There was a shut door in Noah's day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the flood. God, Himself, gave the shut door message to Noah.

"'My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.'

"There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

"There was a shut door in Christ's day. The son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, 'Your house is left unto you desolate.'

"Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:

"'These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that had the key of David, He that openeth and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.'

"I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angel's messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion,thereby rejected the Sirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

"Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ, but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision, -- those who declared the light which they had followed, a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection.

"In order to prove that I believed and taught the shut door doctrine, Mr.____ [a critic of the 1880's] gives a quotation from the Review of June 11, 1861, signed by nine of our prominent members. The quotation reads as follows:

"'Our views of the work before us were then mostly vague and indefinite, some still retaining the idea adopted by the body of Advent believers in 1844 with Wm. Miller at their head, that our work for 'the world' was finished and that the message was confined to those of the original Advent faith. So firmly was this believed, that one of our number was nearly refused the message, the individual presenting it having doubts of the possibility of his salvation because he was not in 'the '44 move.'

​

"To this I need only to add that in the same meeting in which it was urged that the message could not be given to this brother [J.H. Waggoner], a testimony was given me through vision to encourage him to hope in God and to give his heart fully to Jesus, which he did then and there." MS. 4, 1883.

So, those were her words, explaining her position. She believed in a shut door, similar to the shut doors of Noah and Lot and the Jews, and finally the sanctuary timeline, but for a time, she took it too far and believed, along with Miller and other early Adventists, that salvation was past and no one else would be saved. Later visions corrected this view and by the time the Seventh-day Adventist church formed in 1863, the doctrine of the shut door was understood correctly.

 

[Pythons]

When the Seventh-day Adventist Church was organized in 1863, this wrong belief, that salvation was over, had already been discarded. And this is as it should be. Continuing to cling to a wrong idea benefits no one.

Yes, from my looking into this I would agree with your statement....
...By 1863 the Shut Door was discarded.

actually, his message came to include more. After the disappointment, Miller believed that the door was shut to new conversions, and he propagated this belief to the early Adventists. EGW accepted this view for a while until instructed otherwise in vision.

For a "very" short time Miller believed the door was shut....
...And was literally the 1st to preach against the shut door - with velocity.

I have NO confidence in ANY of the NEW theories that have grown out of that 7th month movement, that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the 7th trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfillment of prophecy in any sense.

George Storrs and Samuel Snow convinced Miller of the Shut Door....
...A few months previous to October 1844.
...Previous to that the teaching was 'alien' to Miller.
...One thing is w/out question & that's Miller dumped it as error.
....Prior to Ellen 'giving up the error'.

no, not quite. EGW believed in the Millerite view of a shut door up until her 1847 vision, when she began to understand the real meaning of the "shut door that no man could open and the open door that no man could shut."

The way you phrased that forces me to ask a question.....
...How long after Ellen "began" to understand were her visions explict enough.
...For her to explicitly reject her former position as error?
...I simply don't know because I've not read into it that far.
...I know absolutely it was NOT prior to 1851.

no, because EGW said that she never was shown in vision that the "classic" shut door belief was a correct belief. Her 1874 letter to JNL does not say that she never preached the Millerite (or classic) version of the shut door. Instead she says that she was never shown in vision that that version was correct. Read back a few posts for reminder of this fact.

If Ellen gets a vision in December of 1844 at THE point she had already given up the shut door...
...And the vision causes her, to, "re-establish" the Doctrine.
...And the ONLY definition of the Doctrine was what she held previously.
...Then the vision AFFIRMED the ONLY understanding ANYONE could have had on that Doctrine.

If I could make a crude comparison let's pretend I was a member of a religious society...
...Who believed in Bigfoot & that it was a type of giant Primate.

The leader of my group stated that at a specific date we would all get to see Bigfoot...
...And that on that day the members of the society would be able to communicate w/ it.
...Everyone in the society was very excited even as others outside our society poked fun at us at every turn.

The day Bigfoot was to appear came and went and every visit to a bar or coffee shop after that....
...Resulted in ridicule, soffing and people laughing at me.

I was in dispair and had given up on Bigfoot.....
...Until a mystic in the society convinced me a higher power had given her a vision.
...That Bigfoot really existed.

The mystic also shares this information with a large number of other people that was part of the society who had gave up...
...And because of that mystic many again believed in Bigfoot.

Now, is it reasonable to suggest, after I've re-established my faith in Bigfoot.....
...That I would reject the ONLY definition of Bigfoot I've ever had?

This is what you are expecting me to believe when you say Ellen had a vision but didn't understand how to interpret it.....
....And then use that as proof Ellen never affirmed the classic understand of shut door via visions.
....When the classic understanding was ALL there EVER was.

I'm not in total agreement because the first vision was not even about the shut door, unless you, on your own terms, have decided that the midnight cry equates with the shut door of Miller's understanding. I don't equate the midnight cry with the shut door. I equate it with a genuine spiritual movement to prepare for the second coming of Jesus.

The "shut door" incepted with the Midnight cry and can't exist apart from it...
...Miller's understanding on that came via George Storrs & Samuel Snow.
...Miller did not initially have a specific date - that came from Storr's and Snow.

The midnight cry was believed to have taken place on 22 October 1844.....
...And THAT event was what closed out salvation to the world.
...In keeping with Matthew 25: 1-13.
...That's the meaning of it.

In a complex discussion based on scriptural typology, Snow presented his conclusion (still based on the 2300 day prophecy in Daniel 8:14), that Christ would return on, “the tenth day of the seventh month of the present year, 1844.”[26] Again using the calendar of the Karaite Jews, this date was determined to be October 22, 1844. This “seventh month message” “spread with a rapidity unparalleled in the Millerite experience” amongst the general population. The situation caught many of the established leaders—including Himes and Miller himself, by surprise. Knight reports that, “There is no evidence that any of the foremost Millerite preachers accepted this grass-roots development until late September. Most did not accept it until early October

The first major division of the Millerite groups who had not completely given up their belief in Christ’s Second Advent were those who accepted a shut-door theology. This belief was popularized by Joseph Turner and was based on that key Millerite passage: Matthew 25:1-13—the Parable of the Ten Virgins. The shut door mentioned in verses 11-12 was interpreted as the "close of probation". As Knight explains, “After the door was shut, there would be no additional salvation. The wise virgins (true believers) would be in the kingdom, while the foolish virgins and all others would be on the outside.”[32] The belief became a major issue upon the publication in January 1845, of an article by Apollos Hale and Joseph Turner in The Advent Mirror. This article tied the shut-door concept to October 22, 1844, teaching that the work of general salvation was finished at that date—Christ came spiritually as the Bridegroom, the wise virgins had entered into the wedding feast, and the door was then shut on all others

I can assure you it's as I have said.

Hold up. The shut door was not part of the original Millerite message. You said so yourself. Quoting you: "Miller's message was; 'Repent, Jesus is coming in Oct 43 / 44'. ...That was IT, there was no other message."

After the disappointment, the idea of a permanently shut door was added. But what was reestablished was the faith of EGW and a few others that the 1844 movement was a genuine one, moved by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not to deny the experience, but should continue to search and study.

The shut door was NOT part of the original Millerite message....
...You quoted me correctly.

The idea of a permanently shut door was PREVIOUS to 22 October 1844....
...Storr and Snow incepted that idea and convinced Miller of it's truth.
....On 22 Oct 1844 the midnight cry was to "shut out salvation" for any who rejected the Millerite message.
...Which is why and HOW Ellen ( along with everyone in Portland ).
...Had given up on the shut door by Dec 1844.
...Because Jesus did not come in Oct of 1844.

Ellen White, William Miller & everyone else within the 7th month movement....
...Believed 22 October 1844 at midnight WAS the midnight cry.
...That means the Doctrine existed prior to 22 October 1844.

This is what I've been saying Laodicea...
...Some how I've not explained this properly to you.
...Which makes me feel better because I can not understand why you don't agree with me on this.

here is where you go off track. The midnight cry was not the shut door doctrine. The midnight cry was, "get ready, Jesus is coming!" You are mixing up the two concepts

You can't have one w/out the other - it would be impossible.....
...Miller accepted the "shut door" "no salvation" at the midnight cry from Snow and Storr's.
...That's just a fact of history.
...And my guess why Miller dumped it so fast.

by conflating the midnight cry with the erroneous shut-door doctrine, you manage to make it look like God reestablished her belief in both, when, in fact, what was reestablished was her faith in the genuineness of the movement, even though it had ended in disappointment. The misunderstanding of the shut door just tagged along.

Check your history - the midnight cry includes the shut door.....
...Ellen along with everyone else FULLY believed it prior to Oct 1844.
...Ellen eventually gives up and 'dumps' the shut door.
...But her 1st vision causes her to re-establish it.
...That's what I've been telling ya.

 

[Joe67]

In what way do you understand that I've exaggerated the details of the Midnight cry...
...Within the time hack Ellen promulgated that Doctrine?
...I don't view Ellen White or SDA's as my enemy in any event.

Pythons,

The eternal principle of open door/shut door is like the eternal principle of the laying on of hands.

There were 12 apostles that were sent out in the name of Jesus.

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicea

When the Seventh-day Adventist Church was organized in 1863, this wrong belief, that salvation was over, had already been discarded. And this is as it should be. Continuing to cling to a wrong idea benefits no one.
​

Yes, from my looking into this I would agree with your statement....
...By 1863 the Shut Door was discarded.

but remember that it was only the incorrect understanding of the shut door that was discarded. SDAs still hold, in their fundamental beliefs, that there was a shut door in 1844, but this door refers to the closing of one period of time of Christ's atoning ministry in the heavenly sanctuary, and the opening of the door into the ending period of His atoning ministry in the sanctuary symbolism.

(deleting for space)

Originally Posted by Laodicean

no, not quite. EGW believed in the Millerite view of a shut door up until her 1847 vision, when she began to understand the real meaning of the "shut door that no man could open and the open door that no man could shut."
​

The way you phrased that forces me to ask a question.....
...How long after Ellen "began" to understand were her visions explict enough.
...For her to explicitly reject her former position as error?

I can't pinpoint how long.

...I simply don't know because I've not read into it that far.
...I know absolutely it was NOT prior to 1851.

well, she received visions in 1847, 48, and 49 about the shut door in the sanctuary symbolism. Are you saying that she did not understand them until 1851? Maybe, maybe not. I can't say. She just relayed her vision. She didn't necessarily understand what she relayed...at least not right away.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

no, because EGW said that she never was shown in vision that the "classic" shut door belief was a correct belief. Her 1874 letter to JNL does not say that she never preached the Millerite (or classic) version of the shut door. Instead she says that she was never shown in vision that that version was correct. Read back a few posts for reminder of this fact.
​

If Ellen gets a vision in December of 1844 at THE point she had already given up the shut door...

I don't know about giving up the shut door. She may have become discouraged and given up on the idea that the 1844 movement was a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit. But the shut door was not the primary thrust of the 1844 message. The message was "Jesus is coming!"

...And the vision causes her, to, "re-establish" the Doctrine.

there was no official doctrine about a shut door. What was reestablished was faith in the movement that predicted that 1844 was an important time; mistakenly thought to be the end of the world.

...And the ONLY definition of the Doctrine was what she held previously.

you are making things up, Pythons. It does not say that she resumed faith that salvation was past for the world forever. She did resume faith that God had been leading in the 1844 movement. There's a difference.

...Then the vision AFFIRMED the ONLY understanding ANYONE could have had on that Doctrine.

the vision affirmed no such thing as that the door of salvation was forever closed. I've explained this now a couple of times. I think it is time to move on.

If I could make a crude comparison let's pretend I was a member of a religious society...
...Who believed in Bigfoot & that it was a type of giant Primate.

The leader of my group stated that at a specific date we would all get to see Bigfoot...
...And that on that day the members of the society would be able to communicate w/ it.
...Everyone in the society was very excited even as others outside our society poked fun at us at every turn.

please note in your crude analogy that the only belief here is that they would get to see Bigfoot. No mention that no one else would ever get to see Bigfoot. You need to include this tag-along misunderstanding in your analogy if you are to make your point, because your point is all about the tag-along misunderstanding, not about seeing Bigfoot.

The day Bigfoot was to appear came and went and every visit to a bar or coffee shop after that....
...Resulted in ridicule, soffing and people laughing at me.

I was in dispair and had given up on Bigfoot.....
...Until a mystic in the society convinced me a higher power had given her a vision.
...That Bigfoot really existed.

your analogy is falling apart...badly. Where is the parallel of the incorrect belief that nobody else would get to see Bigfoot, ever? Indeed, it has never even been about whether "Bigfoot" existed, but about when "Bigfoot" would come.

The mystic also shares this information with a large number of other people that was part of the society who had gave up...
...And because of that mystic many again believed in Bigfoot.

okay, so I guess your analogy has wandered into new territory. Now it is not that people would get to see Bigfoot, but that they would finally believe in Bigfoot. (Hmmm, you are showing your hand here.)

The 1844 movement -- and supposedly your Bigfoot analogy -- was all about meeting Jesus in person, not about finally having proof that He exists.

Now, is it reasonable to suggest, after I've re-established my faith in Bigfoot.....
...That I would reject the ONLY definition of Bigfoot I've ever had?

I don't think you know which definition of Bigfoot you mean. Does Bigfoot represent his appearance? Does Bigfoot represent believing that he even exists? Or does Bigfoot mean the tag-along incorrect belief that no one else would ever get to see Bigfoot after a certain date? That last choice is what you really have been arguing all this time, you know.

This is what you are expecting me to believe when you say Ellen had a vision but didn't understand how to interpret it.....

First, I expect you to believe nothing I say. I am just responding to your statements and questions. Secondly, Biblical prophets had visions that they did not understand or know how to interpret. Why should EGW be held to some higher standard, especially as she claimed only messenger status for herself.

....And then use that as proof Ellen never affirmed the classic understand of shut door via visions.
....When the classic understanding was ALL there EVER was.

For the last time (hopefully), Ellen White herself said that she never received a vision affirming the incorrect understanding of the shut door. Can we leave it at that?

(Deleting to save space.)

Originally Posted by Laodicea

Hold up. The shut door was not part of the original Millerite message. You said so yourself. Quoting you: "Miller's message was; 'Repent, Jesus is coming in Oct 43 / 44'. ...That was IT, there was no other message."

After the disappointment, the idea of a permanently shut door was added. But what was reestablished was the faith of EGW and a few others that the 1844 movement was a genuine one, moved by the Holy Spirit, and that they were not to deny the experience, but should continue to search and study.
​

The shut door was NOT part of the original Millerite message....
...You quoted me correctly.

The idea of a permanently shut door was PREVIOUS to 22 October 1844....
...Storr and Snow incepted that idea and convinced Miller of it's truth.
....On 22 Oct 1844 the midnight cry was to "shut out salvation" for any who rejected the Millerite message.
...Which is why and HOW Ellen ( along with everyone in Portland ).
...Had given up on the shut door by Dec 1844.
...Because Jesus did not come in Oct of 1844.

Ellen White, William Miller & everyone else within the 7th month movement....
...Believed 22 October 1844 at midnight WAS the midnight cry.
...That means the Doctrine existed prior to 22 October 1844.

you can't have it both ways in your argument, Pythons. First you say that Miller's message was only that "Jesus was coming, get ready." Now you say that the doctrine of "salvation is past" existed before 1844, and that Miller believed this for a while. So which is it?

This is what I've been saying Laodicea...
...Some how I've not explained this properly to you.
...Which makes me feel better because I can not understand why you don't agree with me on this.

well, if you look again at your analogy of Bigfoot, you will see why you aren't getting your point across. And if that analogy reflects your ability to understand the 1844 movement and EGW's part in it, then it means you don't have a good grasp of the issue at all.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

here is where you go off track. The midnight cry was not the shut door doctrine. The midnight cry was, "get ready, Jesus is coming!" You are mixing up the two concepts
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You can't have one w/out the other - it would be impossible.....
...Miller accepted the "shut door" "no salvation" at the midnight cry from Snow and Storr's.
...That's just a fact of history.
...And my guess why Miller dumped it so fast.

and here you have undermined your previous position that the only message Miller preached was that Jesus was coming again. And that that was IT. Now we have Miller accepting the shut door theory as part of the midnight cry and then dumping it sometime after 1844.

Originally Posted by Laodicea

by conflating the midnight cry with the erroneous shut-door doctrine, you manage to make it look like God reestablished her belief in both, when, in fact, what was reestablished was her faith in the genuineness of the movement, even though it had ended in disappointment. The misunderstanding of the shut door just tagged along.
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Check your history - the midnight cry includes the shut door.....

I suppose it could include a permanently shut door, by default, because if Jesus has really come at that time, salvation would indeed have been over for this world. But the error was in believing that salvation was still over, even after the fact that Jesus had not returned at the expected time.

...Ellen along with everyone else FULLY believed it prior to Oct 1844.

The thrust of the 1844 message was "Jesus is coming," not "salvation is past forever, even if He doesn't come. Such an expectation was not even entertained prior to 1844, because they expected Jesus to come.

...Ellen eventually gives up and 'dumps' the shut door.

this is where you err. She gave up, briefly, her belief that the 1844 movement was a genuine one, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Her discouragement had nothing to do with thinking that the door of salvation is not forever closed.

...But her 1st vision causes her to re-establish it.

her first vision encouraged her and the Advent believers to keep their faith that the movement had been of God. True, they had gotten some parts of the prophecy wrong, but that did not invalidate the prophecy or the movement. An unfortunate tag-along understanding was that the door of salvation was forever closed when, in fact, the door of salvation was closed only to certain scoffers at the time. And meanwhile, there was indeed another shut door, a door that was shut on one phase of the sanctuary work, while another door opened in the sanctuary ministration.

For a while, apparently, there was confusion about these versions of a shut door.

...That's what I've been telling ya.

and what you have been telling me is not entirely correct, Pythons, my friend.