Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

StormyOne

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Alright, let the ride begin.... Here is fundamental belief #1:

1. Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)
Fundamental Beliefs

My problem with this belief is this.... if the "holy scriptures" are the written word of God, why didn't God write them? Why did man write them? If men wrote them, they are the written words of men, compiled and packaged by men... Likewise, the written words of men cannot be infallible because men are not infallible.....

That's just for starters....
 

Byfaithalone1

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Alright, let the ride begin.... Here is fundamental belief #1:


Fundamental Beliefs

My problem with this belief is this.... if the "holy scriptures" are the written word of God, why didn't God write them? Why did man write them? If men wrote them, they are the written words of men, compiled and packaged by men... Likewise, the written words of men cannot be infallible because men are not infallible.....

That's just for starters....

I have wondered this:
Q: If the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will, what is the need for a lesser light?

BFA
 
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VictorC

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Alright, let the ride begin.... Here is fundamental belief #1:

My problem with this belief is this.... if the "holy scriptures" are the written word of God, why didn't God write them? Why did man write them? If men wrote them, they are the written words of men, compiled and packaged by men... Likewise, the written words of men cannot be infallible because men are not infallible.....

That's just for starters....
I don't have a problem with the first FB, as I find a coherence in the overall message contained in Scripture it is evident that there is a singular Source of inspiration behind what those fallible men wrote. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 support my conclusion.

It isn't until FB #6 that the "distinctives" start coming to the forefront, in my opinion. I have had conversations with a CARM member who was in the SDA ministry for some time, and is one of those walking encyclopedias who knows the origin of the SDA doctrines better than I do (referring to Ric_B, for those familiar with the membership "over there"). He believes I err on the side of caution a bit too much when I determined 9 of the 28 FB's to be free from extra-Biblical influence.

I am comfortable with FB #1 as it reads. I can lurk on this one. BFA makes a good point about the alleged need to a lesser light.
 
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StormyOne

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I don't have a problem with the first FB, as I find a coherence in the overall message contained in Scripture it is evident that there is a singular Source of inspiration behind what those fallible men wrote. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 support my conclusion.

It isn't until FB #6 that the "distinctives" start coming to the forefront, in my opinion. I have had conversations with a CARM member who was in the SDA ministry for some time, and is one of those walking encyclopedias who knows the origin of the SDA doctrines better than I do (referring to Ric_B, for those familiar with the membership "over there"). He believes I err on the side of caution a bit too much when I determined 9 of the 28 FB's to be free from extra-Biblical influence.

I am comfortable with FB #1 as it reads. I can lurk on this one. BFA makes a good point about the alleged need to a lesser light.

cool.... we will get to #6 shortly I do believe.... thanks for weighing in V.C.
 
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StormyOne

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I have wondered this:
Q: If the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will, what is the need for a lesser light?

BFA

that is another issue... if you are standing in sunlight, a lighted match serves no purpose....
 
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Restin

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I don't have a problem with the first FB, as I find a coherence in the overall message contained in Scripture it is evident that there is a singular Source of inspiration behind what those fallible men wrote. 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:20-21 support my conclusion.
........:amen:

Human reason and logic cannot find the answer or understand the hidden truth wrapped up in the scriptures. Apart from the Holy Spirit, the words of scripture are something of a DEAD LETTER. Except the 'breath of God', through His Spirit enlighten us, it would as Stormy says in the OP, the scriptures are merely 'written words of men'!

....Restin
 
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AzA

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The fourth gospel, John, describes Jesus as the Word of God.
So is the fundamental belief proposing that the contemporary Bible, as compiled by several committees over centuries, and regardless of translation, root manuscript, or version, is equivalent to Jesus? Jesus in written form?

I don't think even a written description of me would come close to representing me, and I'm not the fullness of God. Further, only a very small part of the Bible describes an equally small portion of the acts of Jesus.
 
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StormyOne

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........:amen:

Human reason and logic cannot find the answer or understand the hidden truth wrapped up in the scriptures. Apart from the Holy Spirit, the words of scripture are something of a DEAD LETTER. Except the 'breath of God', through His Spirit enlighten us, it would as Stormy says in the OP, the scriptures are merely 'written words of men'!

....Restin
The assumption is that there is hidden truth wrapped up in the scriptures... I do not make that assumption.... I will concede that men wrote about God as they understood Him at that time... I will even concede that God inspired them, as he does us... I do not believe that they are God's words.... God did not write nor dictate the bible....
 
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StormyOne

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The fourth gospel, John, describes Jesus as the Word of God.
So is the fundamental belief proposing that the contemporary Bible, as compiled by several committees over centuries, and regardless of translation, root manuscript, or version, is equivalent to Jesus? Jesus in written form?

I don't think even a written description of me would come close to representing me, and I'm not the fullness of God. Further, only a very small part of the Bible describes an equally small portion of the acts of Jesus.
agreed....
 
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Laodicean

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1. Holy Scriptures:
The Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God, given by divine inspiration through holy men of God who spoke and wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. In this Word, God has committed to man the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are the infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the test of experience, the authoritative revealer of doctrines, and the trustworthy record of God's acts in history. (2 Peter 1:20, 21; 2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:105; Prov. 30:5, 6; Isa. 8:20; John 17:17; 1 Thess. 2:13; Heb. 4:12.)
Fundamental Beliefs

My problem with this belief is this.... if the "holy scriptures" are the written word of God, why didn't God write them? Why did man write them? If men wrote them, they are the written words of men, compiled and packaged by men... Likewise, the written words of men cannot be infallible because men are not infallible.....

I agree with you, Stormy.

I guess it could have been phrased a little differently so that "written word of God" would not give the impression to some that the words of the Bible are literally God's words. The only literally written words of God that are found in the Bible are the words of the ten commandments, written with the finger of God.

My perspective is that since humans are the medium, then it is not the literal words, but the thought or message behind the words, that are from God. God's message comes to us couched in the language and personality of the human writer, which means you are going to get all kinds of viewpoints about the same truth. Some writers are depressed (Jeremiah), others worshipful (David) or despairing (David again). One writer is cerebral in nature (Paul), others are poets (Solomon, David), and yet others are methodical and recordkeepers. Each expresses God's message according to his personality and bent of mind and we get glimpses of God through the eyes of these varied temperaments and perspectives of human writers. And that is why I take certain texts that describe God as harsh and vengeful to be descriptions, not dictated by God, but seen through the filter of minds that thought in a certain way.

So how can we trust what these humans write? Are they portraying God correctly? I mean, I tend to give them latitude, that some of the ways they express themselves come from their worldview, their personality type, and not necessarily that God is every bit of what they report. But how then do we know that they are writing truth? Is it left to our own filters, as well?

This is where prayer to the Author of the message behind the human words is essential, for only His Spirit can get His message through to us, despite the shortcomings and personality types of the various writers.

Okay, I could be wrong in my present approach to this first fundamental belief, so any objections from others I will weigh with care. But for now, this is how I read the Bible -- trying to catch glimpses of God through the eyes of humans who have been inspired to share their views of Him.


That's just for starters....


There's more on fundamental 1? Do say on, Stormy....
 
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Laodicean

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I have wondered this:
Q: If the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will, what is the need for a lesser light?

BFA

Is it possible to become so benighted that we'd need a lesser light to lead us back to the greater light?
 
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wolfmedic

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The assumption is that there is hidden truth wrapped up in the scriptures... I do not make that assumption.... I will concede that men wrote about God as they understood Him at that time... I will even concede that God inspired them, as he does us... I do not believe that they are God's words.... God did not write nor dictate the bible....

For the Bible to be inerrant and infallible, as we believe it to be, it has to be the inspired words of God, away from human interference.

I look at it like this. Our Lord works through all of us to achieve His purpose. The writers of the Bible were just tools that our Lord used to give us his Word.
 
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Laodicean

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........:amen:

Human reason and logic cannot find the answer or understand the hidden truth wrapped up in the scriptures. Apart from the Holy Spirit, the words of scripture are something of a DEAD LETTER. Except the 'breath of God', through His Spirit enlighten us, it would as Stormy says in the OP, the scriptures are merely 'written words of men'!

....Restin

I agree with you 100 percent, Restin!
 
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Laodicean

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The fourth gospel, John, describes Jesus as the Word of God.
So is the fundamental belief proposing that the contemporary Bible, as compiled by several committees over centuries, and regardless of translation, root manuscript, or version, is equivalent to Jesus? Jesus in written form?

I had not thought so. I had always thought that when it said that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" it was not referring to the scriptures (which do talk about the Word) but that Jesus was God's thought made visible. When a human talks, we hear a voice. But when God talks, we see a Person.

I don't think even a written description of me would come close to representing me, and I'm not the fullness of God. Further, only a very small part of the Bible describes an equally small portion of the acts of Jesus.

I agree with you on this, AzA.
 
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StormyOne

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For the Bible to be inerrant and infallible, as we believe it to be, it has to be the inspired words of God, away from human interference.

I look at it like this. Our Lord works through all of us to achieve His purpose. The writers of the Bible were just tools that our Lord used to give us his Word.
I do not believe it to be inerrant or infallible..... since God did not dictate what was written, nor directed the editing, and compiling, error and fallibility are present.....
 
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Laodicean

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For the Bible to be inerrant and infallible, as we believe it to be, it has to be the inspired words of God, away from human interference.

I look at it like this. Our Lord works through all of us to achieve His purpose. The writers of the Bible were just tools that our Lord used to give us his Word.

Wolfmedic, does this mean, then, that your position is that every single word of the Bible is God-inspired? Not the thought or message alone, but each word? That would certainly make it easier to proof text my beliefs.

I really do not want to be irreverent about God's Word, so if you think I'm off course, please tell me more. I'll weigh it carefully.
 
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StormyOne

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Laodicean said:
There's more on fundamental 1? Do say on, Stormy....
I do not believe that God commanded the Children of Israel to slaughter men, women and children.... especially because he was more than capable of destroying whomever when he delivered them from Egypt...
 
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Laodicean

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Wolfmedic, I am already thinking over what you said. Would it be an acceptable position if I said that I believe that the message and thought behind the words is infallible and inerrant? Or am I still rationalizing, in your books? The reason why I hesitate to say that the words are inerrent is that in my many times through various versions of the Bible, I have come across scrivener's errors. Surely, those errors were not from God.
 
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wolfmedic

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The differrent translations of the Bible have, of course, had human involvement, but the main ideas are there. The Bible says that we should stone our kids for being dishonorable. I do not condone the abuse of children, but discipline is needed to turn them towards the Lord. The Bible has been given to us as His Word to follow, learn from, and lead our lives. If we start questioning the infalliblility of the Bible then, logically, we can start eliminating sections that we disagree with. Can you imagine that? ""Well, we don't believe in Adam and Eve, so let's get rid of that fellow John the Baptist as well." I know it's crude , but it's where its headed
 
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