Discussion on the 28 fundamental beliefs....

[StormyOne]

One person sees scripture as an instruction manual, another says it has some usefulness... Sooooo...

so, people are free to use it as it suits them... isn't that usually the case?

 

[StormyOne]

Are we ready to go to belief number 2, or shall we explore number 1 further?

 

[Laodicean]

We are children of God and God is our fullness. Our best efforts cannot supersede His. If we have developed the ability to recognize harm, shun and punish it after just a short geological time, our Creator cannot be less perceptive than we are.

AzA, I agree. I mean, are our perceptions correctly calibrated anymore to where we can recognize harm when harm is subtle? Indeed, is it possible that what we might call "perceptive" might, in reality, be a notion that has twisted away from the true standard? And as a result, our methods of dealing with error have become so lax that error runs rampant?

We tend to judge others by the way we are. For instance, there is outrage at the kind of discipline Signapore deals out to its lawbreakers. Death sentence to drug peddlers? Whoa. Imprisonment for chewing gum? Come ooonnnn. The caning of Michael Fay for theft and vandalism? No way! "The number of cane strokes in his sentence was reduced from six to four after US officials requested leniency." (Wiki) Puleeeeze, don't hurt our "child." Because, of course, WE would NEVER do that to OUR children.

Even so, the comparison fails. there is a vast difference between sterner standards of justice by various governments on earth and the omniscient justice of God who owns all life and has a right to do with His own life as He sees is best for all concerned.

Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?

I can't speak for the gods, but 1 John 4:19 says, "We love him, because He first loved us." We are pious because we are loved.

 

[Laodicean]

Beginning with Adam and Eve, had sin never been in the universe, there were never have been any pain. Created beings throughout the universe would never know the depth of LOVE and MERCY that exists in the heart of the Father.

Restin, does a child need to know the depth of love his parents have for him, as long as he is content and secure in the love he already knows he has? Does a child need to run into the path of an oncoming car in order to truly prove and appreciate the extent of the love of his parent who runs into the path of the oncoming car to rescue him?

For this purpose, I believe the scriptures to be 'THOUGHT' inspired, not verbally or word-to-word inspired. Thereby the entire scriptures are more 'a book of prophecy' than what we first understand.

Praise God...Restin

I guess that's another way to look at it. If Scripture is thought-inspired, and the Source knows the beginning from the end, then inherent in Scripture is knowledge of the future, a knowledge which, if expressed from day one, would crate a prophetic Bible. Freewill, though, I think will shape some aspects of prophecy so that God waits for history to play out according to our choices -- praise be to the openness of God......

 

[Laodicean]

Are we ready to go to belief number 2, or shall we explore number 1 further?

I'm ready to go to numbr 2, Stormy.

 

[StormyOne]

I'm ready to go to numbr 2, Stormy.

cool.... here it is....

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Okay... my belief... One God who is capable of manifesting Himself (Itself) in multiple ways, yet in every manifestation be it one or 1000, each is completely God..... The 3 in 1 thing never made since, and still does not... either you have One God or Three Gods.... but that's just me....

 

[Laodicean]

cool.... here it is....

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)
​

Okay... my belief... One God who is capable of manifesting Himself (Itself) in multiple ways, yet in every manifestation be it one or 1000, each is completely God..... The 3 in 1 thing never made since, and still does not... either you have One God or Three Gods.... but that's just me....

Oh, nice, Stormy! We agree again.

I hope I can express my perspective with sufficient reverence, but here goes:

As true as the Trinity is, it doesn't go far enough in describing God. God is bigger than just three aspects. He is powerful enough to reveal Himself in as many forms as He pleases. God is so powerful that He can manifest Himself in more than one place at the same time, and it would still be the same God.

We are like babies in the arms of our parent. We find it hard to pull our parent together as the same person. We feel the arms around us, and our parent is identified as arms. We see a loving face hovering over us, and that face is identified as another parent. We hear a voice humming to us, and we identify the voice as yet another parent. We find it difficult to wrap our minds around the fact that the arms and the face and the voice belong to the same person, and so we split them up and say, our parent is arms. Our parent is face. And our parent is voice. Three parents! Wow!

Some of the aspects of God I see are:

God, the Father.

God, the Holy Spirit -- In the same sense that we understand "your spirit" and "my spirit" as the essence of you and me, God's Spirit is the essence of God Himself, pervading the entire universe.

God, the Creator.

God as Melchizek.

God, the stranger who was entertained by Abraham, unawares.

God appearing in the form of the angel that led the Israelites.

God as Michael, standing up at the end of time, in the book of Daniel.

God, the Lamb.

God, the Shepherd.

And I'm sure there are other revelations.

But crowning all revelations of Himself, there is God in Jesus.

So, for me, monotheism has been revealed in many ways and as the occasion demands. Now, THAT is an awesome God who cannot be put into a mere box called The Trinity. There is so much more to Him.

Okay, just my point of view. Further insights that might shape or reshape my perspective are certainly welcome.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Is it possible to become so benighted that we'd need a lesser light to lead us back to the greater light?

I don't think so. Not if it is true (as FB #1 asserts) that the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will.

Infallible is a strong word. Something that is infallible needs no outside help.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

cool.... here it is....

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Okay... my belief... One God who is capable of manifesting Himself (Itself) in multiple ways, yet in every manifestation be it one or 1000, each is completely God..... The 3 in 1 thing never made since, and still does not... either you have One God or Three Gods.... but that's just me....

It's always fascinating how folks can look at the same thing and come away with different conclusions. I don't see that as a bad thing; it's merely interesting. I suspect that this is part of the reason why God has called us to fellowship.

When you read FB #1, your antenna picked up on the rigid insistence that the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will. When I read it, my antenna picked up on other references to an alleged need for a lesser light.

This is also true for FB #2. When you read it, your antenna picked up on "the 3-in-1 thing." My antenna picks up on the description of God as "immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present." Although I agree with this description of God, it seems rather inconsistent with other positions held by traditional SDAism. For example, if God is truly above all, would the following be true:

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47).

“Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. The sweet voice of mercy is sounding in your ears today, but who can tell if it will sound tomorrow?" (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1892).
​

Does it all come down to the action of divine will or the action of human will? Is God above all or are humans above all?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

It's always fascinating how folks can look at the same thing and come away with different conclusions. I don't see that as a bad thing; it's merely interesting. I suspect that this is part of the reason why God has called us to fellowship.

When you read FB #1, your antenna picked up on the rigid insistence that the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will. When I read it, my antenna picked up on other references to an alleged need for a lesser light.

This is also true for FB #2. When you read it, your antenna picked up on "the 3-in-1 thing." My antenna picks up on the description of God as "immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present."

Although I agree with this description of God, it seems rather inconsistent with other positions held by traditional SDAism. For example, if God is above all, would the following be true:

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47).

“Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. The sweet voice of mercy is sounding in your ears today, but who can tell if it will sound tomorrow?" (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1892).
​

Does it all come down to the action of divine will or the action of human will?

BFA

True BFA, which is why I believe as we review/dissect the 28 fundamentals we will pick up glaring inconsistencies in thought and theology... perhaps that is why it is so difficult to codify beliefs because they are so fluid and change as people get older and understand more.... clearly some of the views held by the pioneers were incomplete, and unfinished...there would be no way for those kinds of views to withstand the test of time...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

True BFA, which is why I believe as we review/dissect the 28 fundamentals we will pick up glaring inconsistencies in thought and theology... perhaps that is why it is so difficult to codify beliefs because they are so fluid and change as people get older and understand more.... clearly some of the views held by the pioneers were incomplete, and unfinished...there would be no way for those kinds of views to withstand the test of time...

Fair enough.

It's interesting that the denomination has so rigidly held that Mrs. White's writings are authoritative even though her writings do not always line up with the denomination's fundamental beliefs.

BFA

 

[VictorC]

Although I agree with you and feel that your point is valid, it's interesting to me that the FBs are only 30 years old. It's also interesting that the denomination has so rigidly held that Mrs. White's writings are authoritative even though her writings do not always line up with the denomination's fundamental beliefs.

BFA

Would these thoughts be similar to my observation that the Questions on Doctrine published in 1957 has not been well received by Adventism as a whole, and some traditional Adventist pastors openly reject QoD as a heresy?

 

[StormyOne]

Would these thoughts be similar to my observation that the Questions on Doctrine published in 1957 has not been well received by Adventism as a whole, and some traditional Adventist pastors openly reject QoD as a heresy?

V.C. it is unfortunate that some in the sda church cling to a pre 1950s theology and mindset....

 

[VictorC]

V.C. it is unfortunate that some in the sda church cling to a pre 1950s theology and mindset....

I suppose that becomes inescapable when they're reliant on the writings of Ellen White, all of which predate 1950.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Is it possible to become so benighted that we'd need a lesser light to lead us back to the greater light?
​

I don't think so. Not if it is true (as FB #1 asserts) that the Scriptures are the infallible revelation of God's will.

Infallible is a strong word. Something that is infallible needs no outside help.

BFA

But this is not about "infallible" needing help. It is about the need of the fallible. Scripture can be the "infallible revelation of God's will" all it wants, but it's going to serve no good purpose if a soul becomes so benighted that the way back to the infallible source of all truth is lost. At such times, then a lesser light is useful in leading such souls back to the greater light.

I'm not arguing for EGW at the moment, but merely arguing against your argument. You can do better than that.

 

[Laodicean]

For example, if God is truly above all, would the following be true:

"What you need to understand is the true force of the will. This is the governing power in the nature of man, the power of decision of choice. Everything depends on the right action of the will” (Steps to Christ, p. 47).​

​

What does God being "above all" have to do with the right action of our will? Everything does indeed depend on our will -- "will" meaning the choices that we make. Choose Jesus and you are saved. Choose to go your own way, and you will be lost.

“Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment. The sweet voice of mercy is sounding in your ears today, but who can tell if it will sound tomorrow?" (Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1892).​

​

Whenever you come to Christ, you have ceased from sin. Sin is separation from God (which leads to sinful acts), so when you are reunited with God, you have ceased from sin. So, yes, the appeal is, "While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." Hebrews 3:15. I don't see anything unBiblical in the above statement.

Does it all come down to the action of divine will or the action of human will? Is God above all or are humans above all?

BFA

God is above all, always. Just because humans have been given the ability to exercise their will in free choice, doesn't make them above all.

 

[Restin]

Originally Posted by Restin

.... I believe the scriptures to be 'THOUGHT' inspired, not verbally or word-to-word inspired...
​

If Scripture is thought-inspired, and the Source knows the beginning from the end, then inherent in Scripture is knowledge of the future, a knowledge which, if expressed from day one, would crate a prophetic Bible. Freewill, though, I think will shape some aspects of prophecy so that God waits for history to play out according to our choices -- praise be to the openness of God......

Laodicean...in catching up...I am not quoting all of this post, but let me clarify a thought before running away from FB #1. While I do believe scripture to be 'thought-inspired', it does not come that way to children, even youth or young adults. The 'new' Christian/child sees 'Jesus loves ME'! ME is the big picture. As truth advances, others become important and it becomes 'Jesus loves YOU'. Same with pain or discipline of any sort, children and youth run from it. My 38 year old daughter told me recently, 'I did not understand lots of things when I was younger, but now I am grateful for parents that believed in discipline'. As far as the freewill, that has it's own maturing aspect as well. Think I need to catch up with FB #2 but as my day has gone by too fast it may have to wait till next time!

Be Blessed...Restin

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Scripture can be the "infallible revelation of God's will" all it wants, but it's going to serve no good purpose if a soul becomes so benighted that the way back to the infallible source of all truth is lost. At such times, then a lesser light is useful in leading such souls back to the greater light.

If Scripture is infallible in its revelation of God's will, souls would not need to be led back to it.

You can do better than that.

Let's not make this personal.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What does God being "above all" have to do with the right action of our will? Everything does indeed depend on our will -- "will" meaning the choices that we make. Choose Jesus and you are saved. Choose to go your own way, and you will be lost.

The following statements are not identical:

1. God grants man the limited ability to choose; and

2. Everything depends on the right action of the will.
​

If everything depends on the right action of the human will, then man is above all.

If everything depends on the right action of the divine will, then God is above all.

BFA

 

[Restin]

cool.... here it is....

2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Okay... my belief... One God who is capable of manifesting Himself (Itself) in multiple ways, yet in every manifestation be it one or 1000, each is completely God..... The 3 in 1 thing never made since, and still does not... either you have One God or Three Gods.... but that's just me....

When God created Adam and Eve, in Gen 2:4 He said... 'they shall be one flesh'. I believe this illustrates the Father/Son 'oneness'. Beyond that, the Holy Spirit works in and through Father and Son, but does 'not speak of himself' Jn 16:13. That said, I also believe human language is inadequate to completely portray the relationship of this oneness, but we can witness to it's effects in our lives.
...Restin