Discussion on Prosperity Theology

[Daniel Martinovich]

I don't understand what you're saying, then.

Just saying there are natural and supernatural "gifts" and every point in between. The 7 at the end of Romans are natural personalty types. Corinthians lists both natural and supernatural. My point was not to get in an argument about this but to point out there is a natural gift, a personalty type gift described as giving in Romans. which is a descriptive term of that personalty type. I like to describe it as a natural ability to create and acquire wealth. Got to squire before you can give right?

 

[Jipsah]

If God granted you prosperity right now

$200K a year isn't prosperous? Dang, I'm amongst some fast company here, then.

 

[Strong in Him]

$200K a year isn't prosperous? Dang, I'm amongst some fast company here, then.

I misread that; I thought it said £20,00 a year.
That's massive.

 

[Simon the Tanner]

You're prosperous enough, you just need a financial advisor.

Anyway, prosperity doctrine is basically magic. Do this, say that, maintain the right confession, and God has to fork over. Bah!

That's a misrepresentation of prosperity doctrine. The Bible teaches that Israel had a covenant with Jehovah that would provide physical and financial blessings if they would keep the law. Hebrews 8:6 says that we have a better covenant based on better promises, so if they had prosperity in their covenant surely we should have it in ours. Proverbs tells us to seek wisdom which will bring riches, honor, and long life. (Prov. 3:16; 8:18) The Psalmist said "no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly" (Ps. 84:11) and that the man who meditates constantly on God's Word will prosper in whatever he does. (Ps. 1:1-3) Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, David, and Solomon were all blessed financially, so if God is no respecter of persons He must be willing to bless us financially if we meet the conditions.

 

[brinny]

Anyone who has any information, please offer. I'm thinking of delving into financial prosperity, so naturally, I would like to learn more about this. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Dave Ramsey.

Check him out. He adheres to the Godly principles of prosperity, with the overlying and under girding theme of "generosity" as in "generously giving" being a major component and goal of the prosperity.

 

[brinny]

Really, I just want to have a house with a backyard. Maybe some animals like horses and a few cattle. Maybe an orchard. Then a nice stockpile in the bank for backup, or to pass off to the kids.

My plan is to maybe open a bagel shop in town and start producing Kumquat marmalade and selling it in my store. This would be as an aside to my current job.

...If I get smart enough, maybe I can find other side sources to invest money as well.

i pray this materializes for you, and then some.

God bless you Landon

 

[Strong in Him]

That's a misrepresentation of prosperity doctrine. The Bible teaches that Israel had a covenant with Jehovah that would provide physical and financial blessings if they would keep the law. Hebrews 8:6 says that we have a better covenant based on better promises, so if they had prosperity in their covenant surely we should have it in ours.

God blessed them, so he must bless us even more?
He has.
We are living post the cross and resurrection. We know Jesus, have the Holy Scriptures and can ask God himself to live in us. We have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3.

Proverbs tells us to seek wisdom which will bring riches, honor, and long life. (Prov. 3:16; 8:18) The Psalmist said "no good thing will He withhold from them that walk uprightly" (Ps. 84:11) and that the man who meditates constantly on God's Word will prosper in whatever he does. (Ps. 1:1-3)

Sorry, but that sounds like finding a few Bible verses to support a theory.

Jesus commended a poor widow who gave everything, Luke 21:1-4 He said it was hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, Matthew 19:23-26, and did not promise that his followers would be financially well off.
He told Judas that they would always have the poor with them, John 12:8.
The early church shared their possessions and gave everything. They did not pray for/claim financial blessings. They took a collection for the poorer churches; they did not send them sermons on praying for finances from God.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, David, and Solomon were all blessed financially, so if God is no respecter of persons He must be willing to bless us financially if we meet the conditions.

Firstly, that is making it conditional. If we do our bit, God will respond; like a celestial Santa Claus.
Secondly, that is an assumption; you could equally say that Job suffered, so if God is no respecter of persons that we should suffer too.
Not sure that David is the best example to give - he was an adulterer and a murderer, could not control his sons, who fought each other and raped their sister, 2 Samuel 13:1-14, and people fought for his crown after he died. There was a "golden age" in Israel while David was king, true. But look how many battles he had to fight to get peace.
Solomon was wealthy - at least some of that came from other people who came to visit him/see what God had done for him and brought him gifts, jewels and money.
He also had 700 wives and 300 concubines who led him astray, 1 Kings 11:3, turned away from God and did not follow his laws, 1 Kings 11:9-11. He probably died incredibly rich, but away from God - I know which of those I'd rather have.

I suppose it depends on how you define prosperity.

 

[RDKirk]

That's a misrepresentation of prosperity doctrine. The Bible teaches that Israel had a covenant with Jehovah that would provide physical and financial blessings if they would keep the law. Hebrews 8:6 says that we have a better covenant based on better promises, so if they had prosperity in their covenant surely we should have it in ours.

First, our "better promise" is eternal life.

Second, a covenant establishes requirements on both parties, so just as it establishes a higher level of performance from God, it also establishes a higher level of performance from His people (see the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus explicitly raises the expectations of Christ on Christians compared to the OT).

 

[RDKirk]

Solomon was wealthy - at least some of that came from other people who came to visit him/see what God had done for him and brought him gifts, jewels and money.

As we see right after Solomon died, most of his wealth came from cruelly taxing his people.

 

[Strong in Him]

As we see right after Solomon died, most of his wealth came from cruelly taxing his people.

I had a feeling it might have done, but couldn't find the reference.

 

[RDKirk]

I had a feeling it might have done, but couldn't find the reference.

1 Kings 12

 

[Phil 1:21]

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Job, David, and Solomon were all blessed financially, so if God is no respecter of persons He must be willing to bless us financially if we meet the conditions.

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19-20

I guess Jesus didn’t get your memo.

 

[Strong in Him]

1 Kings 12

Thank you. I obviously didn't look far enough.

 

[Simon the Tanner]

19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Matthew 6:19-20

I guess Jesus didn’t get your memo.

It wasn't my memo. It's the word of God. There's nothing in what Jesus said that precludes financial blessings. Jesus was talking about your affections. You can store up treasures on Earth and have little to show for it. Some people have committed murder over a pair of sneakers. Likewise you can be financially blessed and still have your affections set on heaven.

As we see right after Solomon died, most of his wealth came from cruelly taxing his people.

Solomon's wealth came from God, as per I Kings 3:5-14.

"5 At Gibeon the Lord appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”

6 Solomon answered, “You have shown great kindness to your servant, my father David, because he was faithful to you and righteous and upright in heart. You have continued this great kindness to him and have given him a son to sit on his throne this very day.

7 “Now, Lord my God, you have made your servant king in place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to carry out my duties. 8 Your servant is here among the people you have chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. 9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”

10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 11 So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, 12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. 13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both wealth and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. 14 And if you walk in obedience to me and keep my decrees and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life.”

Solomon reigned for 40 years. The heavy yoke was in the later years as is evidenced by the fact that the elders who had served his father were consulted about the matter. No question that Solomon's latter years weren't his best, but that doesn't negate the promises of God toward him as a young man.

 

[Phil 1:21]

It wasn't my memo. It's the word of God.

No, it's actually a misappropriation of the word of God to appeal to people who view our Lord as a vending machine to please their worldly desires. It's a theology of narcissism.

There's nothing in what Jesus said that precludes financial blessings.

Nor is there anything in what Jesus says that obligates God to bless folks with a BMW, a big house, and new boobs for the wife if they do X-Y-Z...which oddly enough usually includes making donations to some guy in a leisure suit with a charis-mullet.

 

[Strong in Him]

It wasn't my memo. It's the word of God. There's nothing in what Jesus said that precludes financial blessings. Jesus was talking about your affections.

No, Jesus was talking about the things that you treasure the most. If that is possessions, friendships, earthly values, money etc, then that means your heart, focus and values are in this world.
If it's God's word, God's will and the things of God, then your heart, focus and values are towards God and heavenly. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. Only a few verses later he said "seek FIRST the kingdom of God".
This is, basically, the first of the 10 commandments - have no other god besides the Lord and worship only him.

Some people have committed murder over a pair of sneakers. Likewise you can be financially blessed and still have your affections set on heaven.

A person can also be financially blessed and feel that they have all they need, that they have no need of God or that God is like a celestial vending machine; put in the right words/prayers and get what you want.
There was a reason that Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Solomon's wealth came from God, as per I Kings 3:5-14.

Some of it came because other people came to visit King Solomon, because he was king and because they had heard of his reputation, and brought gifts with them. God provided wealth through other people, it didn't fall from the sky as a reward. Other money that he had no doubt came through taxes.

No question that Solomon's latter years weren't his best, but that doesn't negate the promises of God toward him as a young man.

Solomon was anointed king by God, and was blest by him; no doubt about it.
But his wealth wasn't solely a reward for his Godliness and devotion. He died financially wealthy, but, I would say, not prosperous - he had turned from God and angered him.

If you count prosperity as only financial gain, then sure.
But we all die, and then meet with God. What did Solomon have at that point? Nothing; not even the knowledge that he had been faithful and persevered to the end.

 

[RDKirk]

Some of it came because other people came to visit King Solomon, because he was king and because they had heard of his reputation, and brought gifts with them. God provided wealth through other people, it didn't fall from the sky as a reward. Other money that he had no doubt came through taxes.

There's no doubt because scripture explicitly says Solomon taxed the people cruelly.