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Discussion of the Sweden model

tall73

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Can You Beat COVID-19 Without a Lockdown? Sweden Is Trying

To start with, it’s a myth that Sweden is doing nothing about the virus. Most Swedes have changed their habits a lot. Schools for older kids are closed, as are universities. People are working from home, when they can, and the elderly are being urged to keep to themselves. Gatherings of over 50 people are prohibited, and ski resorts are closed. Restaurants and bars are allowing table service only, and grocery stores are installing glass dividers between customers and cashiers. People who go to Stockholm may be stunned to see bars and cafés with customers, but they’re seeing only the Swedes who choose to run higher risks. They’re not seeing all the Swedes who are staying home.

Second, contrary to the claims of John Fund and Joel Hay and many others, Sweden isn’t trying to develop “herd immunity,” meaning a state of affairs in which so many people get the virus that the virus runs out of kindling. (At least, Swedish officials claim they aren’t doing this, and they would have a lot to lose by lying about it.) Instead, Sweden intends to take as loose an approach as possible that still keeps case growth down to nonexponential numbers. “We are not in the containment phase,” said Sweden’s chief state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, last month. “We are in the mitigation phase.”

What Tegnell means is that the coronavirus is all over the world now, and, without a vaccine or a massive outbreak that brings about herd immunity, you won’t get rid of it. Even if you do what China did and lock down so hard that you eradicate the virus within your borders, it will return as soon as you allow any travel in and out of your country to resume. So Sweden has based its policies on two premises: (1) The coronavirus can only be managed, not suppressed. Short of going full Wuhan on the entire planet, we’ll have to live with it. (2) People won’t tolerate severe lockdown for more than a month or two, since boredom, isolation, and economic desperation will get overwhelming. With these premises in mind, Sweden has pumped the brakes instead of slamming on them.


For comparison, here is the deaths per million population for Sweden and some other nations in the general region.



Belgium 419
Spain 413
Italy 367
France 275
UK 202
Netherlands 193
Switzerland 148
Sweden 132
Ireland 98
Portugal 62
Denmark 55
Germany 48
Norway 28

There is quite a range in the various nations listed. It seems there are various factors at play, from testing, population density, timing of the arrival of the virus, to of course lockdown measures, and timing of starting the lockdown.


However, if slowing to flatten the curve is the goal, are the economy crippling measures other nations are employing helping enough compared to the results Sweden has obtained? The article notes their health system has been strained, but not overwhelmed.
 

charsan

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I just read that article. I think Sweden is on to something, don't force people to do things, heavily advise them and keep the economy and country open, treat the people like they have merit and or adults. Just like the article said coronavirus can only be manged and we need to learn to live with it. Good for Sweden, the land my Grandpa came from. :thumbsup:
 
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Occams Barber

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Can You Beat COVID-19 Without a Lockdown? Sweden Is Trying

To start with, it’s a myth that Sweden is doing nothing about the virus. Most Swedes have changed their habits a lot. Schools for older kids are closed, as are universities. People are working from home, when they can, and the elderly are being urged to keep to themselves. Gatherings of over 50 people are prohibited, and ski resorts are closed. Restaurants and bars are allowing table service only, and grocery stores are installing glass dividers between customers and cashiers. People who go to Stockholm may be stunned to see bars and cafés with customers, but they’re seeing only the Swedes who choose to run higher risks. They’re not seeing all the Swedes who are staying home.

Second, contrary to the claims of John Fund and Joel Hay and many others, Sweden isn’t trying to develop “herd immunity,” meaning a state of affairs in which so many people get the virus that the virus runs out of kindling. (At least, Swedish officials claim they aren’t doing this, and they would have a lot to lose by lying about it.) Instead, Sweden intends to take as loose an approach as possible that still keeps case growth down to nonexponential numbers. “We are not in the containment phase,” said Sweden’s chief state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, last month. “We are in the mitigation phase.”

What Tegnell means is that the coronavirus is all over the world now, and, without a vaccine or a massive outbreak that brings about herd immunity, you won’t get rid of it. Even if you do what China did and lock down so hard that you eradicate the virus within your borders, it will return as soon as you allow any travel in and out of your country to resume. So Sweden has based its policies on two premises: (1) The coronavirus can only be managed, not suppressed. Short of going full Wuhan on the entire planet, we’ll have to live with it. (2) People won’t tolerate severe lockdown for more than a month or two, since boredom, isolation, and economic desperation will get overwhelming. With these premises in mind, Sweden has pumped the brakes instead of slamming on them.


For comparison, here is the deaths per million population for Sweden and some other nations in the general region.



Belgium 419
Spain 413
Italy 367
France 275
UK 202
Netherlands 193
Switzerland 148
Sweden 132
Ireland 98
Portugal 62
Denmark 55
Germany 48
Norway 28

There is quite a range in the various nations listed. It seems there are various factors at play, from testing, population density, timing of the arrival of the virus, to of course lockdown measures, and timing of starting the lockdown.


However, if slowing to flatten the curve is the goal, are the economy crippling measures other nations are employing helping enough compared to the results Sweden has obtained? The article notes their health system has been strained, but not overwhelmed.


It's difficult to see what is the impact of lockdown compared to the whole range of things countries are doing right or wrong. Sweden may have a lower death rate than its near neighbours but on a worldwide comparison it doesn't look that good. As of the latest Worldometre figures Sweden has the 11th highest death rate (132 per million) out of 210 countries.

For another comparison, look at New Zealand and Australia. Both countries, particularly NZ, pulled up the drawbridge early and put in place fairly draconian lockdown laws. The deathrate for both countries is 2 per million compared to Sweden's 132 per million. Obviously these two countries are doing something right (so far). It could be reasonably argued that at least part of their current success is due to a stringent lockdown.


Obviously there are multiple factors at play in each country. I think it's dangerous to cherry pick one factor and decide that it can be ignored. This comment is not aimed at your post since you have recognised other factors. I am however concerned at any simplistic "look at Sweden" mentality when it comes to lockdown.

OB
 
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OldWiseGuy

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When the dust settles shutting down the economy will prove to be a colossal blunder, imo.

Of course the real problem started with our cavalier attitude toward the seasonal flu. We should have been learning how to control a disease epidemic years ago.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's difficult to see what is the impact of lockdown compared to the whole range of things countries are doing right or wrong. Sweden may have a lower death rate than its near neighbours but on a worldwide comparison it doesn't look that good. As of the latest Worldometre figures Sweden has the 11th highest death rate (132 per million) out of 210 countries.

For another comparison, look at New Zealand and Australia. Both countries, particularly NZ, pulled up the drawbridge early and put in place fairly draconian lockdown laws. The deathrate for both countries is 2 per million compared to Sweden's 132 per million. Obviously these two countries are doing something right (so far). It could be reasonably argued that at least part of their current success is due to a stringent lockdown.


Obviously there are multiple factors at play in each country. I think it's dangerous to cherry pick one factor and decide that it can be ignored. This comment is not aimed at your post since you have recognised other factors. I am however concerned at any simplistic "look at Sweden" mentality when it comes to lockdown.

OB

The mistake is assuming that lockdowns have to be permanent. Lockdowns should ideally be buying time to ramp-up production of masks and testing supplies and infrastructure.

I just read that article. I think Sweden is on to something, don't force people to do things, heavily advise them and keep the economy and country open, treat the people like they have merit and or adults. Just like the article said coronavirus can only be manged and we need to learn to live with it. Good for Sweden, the land my Grandpa came from. :thumbsup:

I'm doubtful that it is responsible or ethical to expect individuals to shoulder the burden for what is ultimately a matter of public health. The evidence seems to be that countries that take draconian measures are doing better than those that are afraid of a loss of "freedom".
 
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loveofourlord

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It's difficult to see what is the impact of lockdown compared to the whole range of things countries are doing right or wrong. Sweden may have a lower death rate than its near neighbours but on a worldwide comparison it doesn't look that good. As of the latest Worldometre figures Sweden has the 11th highest death rate (132 per million) out of 210 countries.

For another comparison, look at New Zealand and Australia. Both countries, particularly NZ, pulled up the drawbridge early and put in place fairly draconian lockdown laws. The deathrate for both countries is 2 per million compared to Sweden's 132 per million. Obviously these two countries are doing something right (so far). It could be reasonably argued that at least part of their current success is due to a stringent lockdown.


Obviously there are multiple factors at play in each country. I think it's dangerous to cherry pick one factor and decide that it can be ignored. This comment is not aimed at your post since you have recognised other factors. I am however concerned at any simplistic "look at Sweden" mentality when it comes to lockdown.

OB

actually if you use world meter and compare, finland, sweden, and norway and another I forget sweden has around 9X's or more deaths compared to the other countries, and only 2x's the size.
 
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Occams Barber

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actually if you use world meter and compare, finland, sweden, and norway and another I forget sweden has around 9X's or more deaths compared to the other countries, and only 2x's the size.

The latest figures for all Scandinavian countries plus Finland leave Sweden looking very sick by comparison.

The deathrate per million of population for each country is:

Finland...……….15
Norway...……….30
Denmark………..58
Sweden..……….139 (up from 132 yesterday)​

OB
 
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loveofourlord

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The latest figures for all Scandinavian countries plus Finland leave Sweden looking very sick by comparison.

The deathrate per million of population for each country is:

Finland...……….15
Norway...……….30
Denmark………..58
Sweden..……….139 (up from 132 yesterday)​

OB

yeah,
 
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Occams Barber

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For anyone who is still inclined to promote the Swedish model as the way to go, be careful what you wish for...

Sweden's death rate is now 192 per million - up from 132 per million 5 days ago.

OB
 
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OldWiseGuy

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For anyone who is still inclined to promote the Swedish model as the way to go, be careful what you wish for...

Sweden's death rate is now 192 per million - up from 132 per million 5 days ago.

OB

Can you update those other countries?
 
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tall73

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OldWiseGuy

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Occams Barber

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Nithavela

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So most are creeping up as well.
Most are creeping up. Sweden is soaring.

Yeah, their gamble really is paying of. A bit of a shame about the furniture, though.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Most are creeping up. Sweden is soaring.

Yeah, their gamble really is paying of. A bit of a shame about the furniture, though.
Sometimes it is useful to have an example of what not to do.

We may be thanking Georgia in the future in the U.S..
 
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loveofourlord

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Sometimes it is useful to have an example of what not to do.

We may be thanking Georgia in the future in the U.S..

nahhh trump realized that might hurt his re-election campaign so he's said in a very loose wy that he thinks it's wrong for them to open too soon, but will let them decide heh. I think las vegas is the more dangerous one, that mayor is worse then trump when it comes to callousness of human life.
 
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