Discussion Forum for Continuationists

[SavedByGrace3]

Rom. 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This reckoning ourselves DEAD means we are really truly Dead to the FLESH not just symbolically.

The Flesh being the Body of sin, the Old man, the Sin Nature, not our actual fleshly bodies that we remain in, until the coming of the lord.

Agreed. Water baptism symbolizes the real rebirth.

 

[JIMINZ]

Agreed. Water baptism symbolizes the real rebirth.

.
I'm saying it on a deeper understanding than just Symbolizing, I am saying actual (Reckon).

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
(Meaning) - - Reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.

nevertheless I live;
(Meaning) - - We are still physically alive.

yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
(Meaning) - - Christ lives in me in the form of the Holy Spirit, keeping my fleshly Physical body alive.

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,
(Meaning) - -
Eph. 2:5,6
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Meaning) - -
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What I am saying is we are Spiritually separated from our Flesh (Human Nature), and regenerated with a Spiritual Nature. (Newness of Life) (Holy Spirit).

Simply put, Baptism is the Real Death and Resurrection of the Believer.
Sin therefore has no hold on us, because we are Dead to the Flesh.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

.
I'm saying it on a deeper understanding than just Symbolizing, I am saying actual (Reckon).

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ:
(Meaning) - - Reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin.

nevertheless I live;
(Meaning) - - We are still physically alive.

yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
(Meaning) - - Christ lives in me in the form of the Holy Spirit, keeping my fleshly Physical body alive.

and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,
(Meaning) - -
Eph. 2:5,6
5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;
6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Meaning) - -
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What I am saying is we are Spiritually separated from our Flesh (Human Nature), and regenerated with a Spiritual Nature. (Newness of Life) (Holy Spirit).

Simply put, Baptism is the Real Death and Resurrection of the Believer.
Sin therefore has no hold on us, because we are Dead to the Flesh.

Yes... agreed. Actual. New life. Dead to sin. Everlasting life.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Doctrine of Baptisms

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into).

In themselves, not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usage, a number of unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the popular passage in John 3:5-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for the sake of brevity.

John 3:5-17
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;...
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;…
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life .
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think is the famous vs 16.

"every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life ."

The difference between these two words, "in" and "into", I think is important.

The Strong’s' entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.


The primary difference, is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of the prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed _over_ the box, the word "under" was placed _under_ the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As the Strong’s' definition above says :


"denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest..."

The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in". Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.

For many years, I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth, or to ascribe to a unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by normal, natural means. i.e. I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, etc.... And I still hold this understanding.
Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into", I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.
I knew what it meant to believe "in" him; but what about to believe "into" him?

Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.
Vs 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again". He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again". So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God". A second clue is in vs 8:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit."

A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit, or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God, and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

Which brings us to verse 14,

14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes in studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent, and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent, and were "given life for it". It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed, it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is great:

Num 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard". No mere "post" or "stick". The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor, to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14. The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross, but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1: (KJS)
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exhalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus!

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him". We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation", and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation", the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross, or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is :

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we believe into the operation of God (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Cor 12:
13 (KJS) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Cor 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gala 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Roma 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

[P. Nathan]

water changes nothing, wil ye or nil ye.

the testimony of the old testament is the inner desire of the heart is what sanctifies to God. that is the entire point of the famous ezekiel verse

if you want to be sprinkled, immersed, or bathed, up to you and your group, it can be very meaningful socially and psychologically but it has zero efficacy in salvation or sanctification. the real deal is all in the spirit. Buried with him and risen with him in truth, not in symbol. If you want to be part of Jesus, you have to drink his blood and eat his flesh. He didn't muck around and call that a metaphor either, he said it straight up. You can't do it physically, you have to conceptualize another other realm to do it in.

for the real deal, look for the baptism of fire, that is, the Holy Ghost.

 

[Alithis]

Doctrine of Baptisms

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into).

In themselves, not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usage, a number of unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the popular passage in John 3:5-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for the sake of brevity.

John 3:5-17
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;...
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;…
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life .
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think is the famous vs 16.

"every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life ."

The difference between these two words, "in" and "into", I think is important.

The Strong’s' entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.


The primary difference, is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of the prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed _over_ the box, the word "under" was placed _under_ the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As the Strong’s' definition above says :


"denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest..."

The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in". Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.

For many years, I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth, or to ascribe to a unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by normal, natural means. i.e. I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, etc.... And I still hold this understanding.
Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into", I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.
I knew what it meant to believe "in" him; but what about to believe "into" him?

Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.
Vs 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again". He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again". So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God". A second clue is in vs 8:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit."

A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit, or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God, and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

Which brings us to verse 14,

14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes in studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent, and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent, and were "given life for it". It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed, it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is great:

Num 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard". No mere "post" or "stick". The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor, to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14. The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross, but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1: (KJS)
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exhalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus!

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him". We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation", and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation", the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross, or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is :

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we believe into the operation of God (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Cor 12:
13 (KJS) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Cor 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gala 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Roma 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

its long and im reading it late, but im inclined to agree.and have seen as much without knowing greek or hebrew ever.

now look also into spiritual circumcision through baptism .
it(will only add to what your pointing out

 

[Alithis]

water changes nothing, wil ye or nil ye.

the testimony of the old testament is the inner desire of the heart is what sanctifies to God. that is the entire point of the famous ezekiel verse

if you want to be sprinkled, immersed, or bathed, up to you and your group, it can be very meaningful socially and psychologically but it has zero efficacy in salvation or sanctification. the real deal is all in the spirit. Buried with him and risen with him in truth, not in symbol. If you want to be part of Jesus, you have to drink his blood and eat his flesh. He didn't muck around and call that a metaphor either, he said it straight up. You can't do it physically, you have to conceptualize another other realm to do it in.

for the real deal, look for the baptism of fire, that is, the Holy Ghost.

God does not give instructions to do meaningless empty sybolic acts.

and baptism with fire speaks of trial and judgment.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

its long and im reading it late, but im inclined to agree.and have seen as much without knowing greek or hebrew ever.

now look also into spiritual circumcision through baptism .
it(will only add to what your pointing out

Thanks for the comment Althis. Sorry about the length... it is a quote from a book.

 

[Alithis]

Doctrine of Baptisms

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into).

In themselves, not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usage, a number of unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the popular passage in John 3:5-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for the sake of brevity.

John 3:5-17
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;...
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;…
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life .
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think is the famous vs 16.

"every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life ."

The difference between these two words, "in" and "into", I think is important.

The Strong’s' entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.


The primary difference, is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of the prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed _over_ the box, the word "under" was placed _under_ the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As the Strong’s' definition above says :


"denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest..."

The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in". Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.

For many years, I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth, or to ascribe to a unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by normal, natural means. i.e. I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, etc.... And I still hold this understanding.
Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into", I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.
I knew what it meant to believe "in" him; but what about to believe "into" him?

Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.
Vs 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again". He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again". So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God". A second clue is in vs 8:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit."

A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit, or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God, and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

Which brings us to verse 14,

14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes in studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent, and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent, and were "given life for it". It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed, it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is great:

Num 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard". No mere "post" or "stick". The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor, to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14. The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross, but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1: (KJS)
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exhalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus!

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him". We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation", and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation", the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross, or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is :

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we believe into the operation of God (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Cor 12:
13 (KJS) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Cor 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gala 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Roma 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

so,just revisiting this,
is the artical suggesting the word" into " should be used
or that in the greek it already is and its been transliterated to "in"

 

[JIMINZ]

Doctrine of Baptisms

For some time, I have been studying certain passages from John (and elsewhere) which involve an understanding of the Greek. Specifically, the Greek prepositions "en" (in) and "eis" (into).

In themselves, not particularly interesting. But when one considers some of the usage, a number of unusual ideas are brought forth. Take the popular passage in John 3:5-17, which I will not present in its' entirety for the sake of brevity.

John 3:5-17
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;...
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born again;…
14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life .
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing into him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I have changed the prepositions to their corrected form. Most notable, I think is the famous vs 16.

"every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life ."

The difference between these two words, "in" and "into", I think is important.

The Strong’s' entries:
Lexicon Greek
1519 eis {ice}
a primary preposition; TDNT - 2:420,211; prep AV - into 573, to 281, unto 207, for 140, in 138, on 58, toward 29, against 26, misc 321; 1773 1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Lexicon Greek
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through 37, misc 321; 2782 1) in, by, with etc.


The primary difference, is in motion. While studying Greek years ago, I remember a diagram of the prepositions. There was a box with the prepositions arranged around it in their respective positions creating a graphic representation of the words. The word "over" was placed _over_ the box, the word "under" was placed _under_ the box, etc.. The Greek word in (en) was placed stationary inside the box. No movement. As the Strong’s' definition above says :


"denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest..."

The word into (eis) was represented in the diagram by an arrow beginning at a point outside of the box, and proceeding to the inside of the box, stopping at the word "in". Again the idea being portrayed when the word "into" is used is one of _motion_. Moving or changing in position or state or time. The understanding that I am coming to is somewhat different from the conventional.

For many years, I have held that to "believe in" something means to mentally or spiritually accept or agree with a truth, or to ascribe to a unseen reality in space or time that cannot be proven by normal, natural means. i.e. I believe in God, I believe in creation, I believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, etc.... And I still hold this understanding.
Yet, in reviewing the above information concerning the difference between "in" and "into", I am forced to reconsider some of the passages that I previously thought I knew the meaning.
I knew what it meant to believe "in" him; but what about to believe "into" him?

Looking back at the context of the passage in John 3 brought some insight.
Vs 16 is part of a teaching by Jesus about being "born again". He goes on to say that this birth is one of the spirit, not the flesh. It is also a second birth, in that it is called being "born again". So this "new birth" of the spirit involves a change. A result of this change is that a person may now "enter into the reign of God". A second clue is in vs 8:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit."

A person born of the spirit, or born again, can hear the voice of the Spirit, or commune with God.

If we understand the context of the passage to be consistent throughout, then it is reasonable to think that believing "into" Him has something to do with our spirit being born again, by which we enter into the reign of God, and are able to commune with the Spirit of God.

Which brings us to verse 14,

14 `And as Moses did exalt the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be exhalted,
15 that every one who is believing into him may not perish, but may have eternal life

Some revelation comes in studying these verses. If you recall the story of the serpents in the wilderness, you will remember that the people were plagued by serpents. (Num 21) God instructed Moses to construct a brazen serpent, and to raise it above the people. When they were bitten, they could look upon the serpent, and were "given life for it". It is significant that this wording was used. It does not say they were healed, it says they were given life. Youngs Literal translation is great:

Num 21:
9 "And Moses maketh a serpent of brass, and setteth it on the ensign, and it hath been, if the serpent hath bitten any man, and he hath looked expectingly unto the serpent of brass--he hath lived."

Note the word "ensign" or "standard". No mere "post" or "stick". The brazen serpent was placed on a vehicle of honor, to be a glorious symbol that people rally around. Hence the Greek word for "exalt" in Jo 3:14. The common understanding of John 3:14 is that the ensign is the cross. But a new understanding emerges when we remember that the new birth is not a result of the cross, but of the resurrection!

1 Peter 1: (KJS)
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

We are born again by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. In the type, the Jews believed into ("looked expectantly unto") the "exhalted" brazen serpent, and were given life, we too "believe into" the "exalted" Jesus, and are given life. The "exalted" Jesus is the resurrected Jesus!

The new understanding is that there is a difference between a general "believe in Him" and supernatural "believe into Him". We have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, but this reveals a deeper understanding of what happens when we do. We believe into His "exaltation", and are born again, being raised up together with Him. This would change our understanding of the "brazen serpent" type. It was not the cross, but the resurrection that was pointed to by the brazen serpent. It is the resurrection that gives us life. The cross was not an "exaltation", the resurrection was! This in no way diminishes the importance of the cross, or the tremendous sacrifice of our Lord. But it deepens our understanding of the spiritual mechanics of the operation of God in the provision of the new birth.

The best scripture to add to this is :

Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Here we see Christ being raised up (as an ensign), wherein we believe into the operation of God (Col 2:15), and are quickened together with Him, and are made to sit with Him (entering the reign of God!) in heavenly places!

Look at Colossians 2:12.

Colossians 2:12 (KJS)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Doctrinally, this is referred to as Baptism into Christ.

Romans 6:
3 (KJS) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? {were: or, are}
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1Cor 12:
13 (KJS) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. {Gentiles: Gr. Greeks}

2 Cor 1:21 (KJS)
Now he which stablisheth us with you into Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;

Galatians 2:16
16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gala 3:27 (KJS)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

John 12:46 (KJS)
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth into me should not abide in darkness.

Roma 3:22 (KJS)
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I concur 100%, very well written and presented.

 

[Alithis]

I concur 100%, very well written and presented.

3 things greatly attacked by the enemy
1 -belief: he makes it sound intellectual instead of actioned.
2-repentance : he makes it sound like a one off instance instead of a constant state of being in Christ
3-water baptism .he doesnt want people to leave egypt and be free

 

[SavedByGrace3]

3 things greatly attacked by the enemy
1 -belief: he makes it sound intellectual instead of actioned.
2-repentance : he makes it sound like a one off instance instead of a constant state of being in Christ
3-water baptism .he doesnt want people to leave egypt and be free

The central point I am presenting here is that faith is a real and actual thing. We do not merely believe "in" Christ... which would imply a mere mental assent or mental agreement. We enter into Christ by believing into His death, burial, and resurrection. We believe into the operation of God. We are born again by believing into His resurrection. It is real.. not just symbolic or metaphorical. We become new creatures/creation when we enter into Christ. It is not just a change of association... it is a dynamic new creation. All (spirit) things are made new. All the old (spirit) things are done away.
As to the text and translation... I think the translators, in good heart, are trying to help us out and make it easier for us to understand. Of course the target and landing point of the Word is not our mind or understanding. The target and landing point is our spirit. We believe with the spirit. The mind cannot perceive or receive the Spirit breathed Word of God. Oh it can hear it and file it away into memory.. and that is important for the purpose of renewing your mind and bringing it into alliance with the spirit. But the target and landing place for the Spirit breathed Word of God is your spirit. So the notion that everything in the Word should be catered to the mind is a mistake. I firmly beleive we should take the text of the scripture.. be it Hebrew or Greek, and translate it as accurately and precise as possible... regardless if it makes sense to our mental facilities. So if the word "eis" (into) is used in the Greek... than translate it exactly that way... INTO.
So the passage in John 3, which is talking about being born again, would read verse 16 this way:
"For God so loved the word that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes INTO (ice) Him should not perish, but have everlasting life..." That is... the new birth.
We certainly honor and respect the many Hebrew and Greek scholars who have dedicated their lives to these languages. But my rule is we should translate meaning as literally as possible. If it is grammatically correct... then leave it as is.
In my previous post, if the Greek word was eis (into) but the translator put in, I changed it to the correct word.... into.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This is from the Literal Translation...
John 3
15 that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is the correct rendering of the Greek preposition eis... "into."
This is all about the new birth, or being "born again" and receiving "eternal life" by believing "into" His death burial and resurrection.


The Recovery Version also correctly translates the verses with "into."
John 3
15 That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Alithis]

This is from the Literal Translation...
John 3
15 that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is the correct rendering of the Greek preposition eis... "into."
This is all about the new birth, or being "born again" and receiving "eternal life" by believing "into" His death burial and resurrection.


The Recovery Version also correctly translates the verses with "into."
John 3
15 That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

oh i agree.
belief has always been action
same as faith.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

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