Discussing sin, what is true and false

[JIMINZ]

If "sin is sin" the bible wouldn't say differently.

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I'm sorry, I missed that Scripture reference, could you re post it?

 

[Chinchilla]

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

Forgive 70 times 7 .

 

[JIMINZ]

I would also say there are 2 more classes of sins.
Fleshly sins like adultery and theft versus the diabolical sins like self-righteousness and pride.
Look at how Jesus dealt with "sinners" versus how He dealt with the Pharisees.

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That kind of thinking is exactly why there are no degrees of sin, it gets to bogged down.

Humans aren't the smartest species, I'm sure you have heard of the KISS principal?

 

[JIMINZ]

The unforgivable sin is rejection of the Holy Spirit's working in someone convicting them of there unbelief.
As long as someone is alive (breathing) there is hope for them to accept Christ. If they die rejecting Him, they cannot be forgiven. That is the unforgivable sin.

The wages of sin is death. But there is more than just one form of death.
Sickness is a form of death. Dying, as being put in the grave is another, and then there is the Second death which is eternal. Unbelief will warrant the Second death.
The other sins can kill as well, but not result in the Second death, just physical death.

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The Unpardonable sin is the attributing of the works (Demonstration of Miracles) by the Holy Spirit to the works of Satan.

This sin has a specific name, it is called the Blasphemy of (against) the Holy Spirit.

Mat. 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit......... Matthew, 12:22-32

 

[Oldmantook]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

They ignore Paul's plain warning in Rom 8:13. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Sin does matter and if a believer is living according to the flesh via habitual sin, then he/she will die = spiritual death = no salvation.

 

[Oldmantook]

It would be. However, the format is wrong. A person is saved by Faith, but someone who has Faith in Christ will of course want to follow Him, which means attempting to do as the Lord taught. If the person in question claimed to have saving Faith but thought he could get away with sinning repeatedly because he will always be forgiven afterwards, we could be pretty sure that he did not actually have Faith. That is the theme of the New Testament book of James, by the way.

So based on your rationale that someone who sins repeatedly did not actually have faith, how can someone depart from the faith when they did not actually possess it in the first place? In other words how can someone depart from the faith that he was never a part of? Only believers are capable of apostatizing. While it is true that some were never of the faith to begin with, it is not logical to conclude that all were never of the faith to begin with as that is a logical fallacy or overgeneralization. For example, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Tim 4:1

 

[JoeP222w]

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

One who continues in sin is demonstrating an unrepentant heart. Not all are forgiven. Not all are justified.

 

[FireDragon76]

The "sin-management" approach to Christianity has a wake of spiritual abuse and harm so long that educated people tend to see religion now days as deeply problematic.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

I agree with your premise and a couple passages...
Galations 6:7-8:
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
2 Peter 2:20-22:
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[WannaWitness]

This reminds me of a Bible study I attended some years back where somebody mentioned that one could "steal a candy bar and be covered by the blood". I remember thinking at the time that the Christian life does not work that way if we are to truly be set apart for Jesus, and stealing is most definitely a sin.

The Christian life is a changed life, which means we are to seek to please God by trying to be obedient to His Word and doing our level best to avoid willful sin. This does not mean we aren't going to struggle and even give in to our weaknesses. As long as we are in these earthly bodies we are going to slip, and I very much realize I have a lot to work on. This entire life is a growing process, learning from our mistakes and trying to do better with ourselves so as to not repeat the same ones. Easier said than done, I know, as nobody is perfect (and won't be until we enter eternity). But that's just it; the key words are "growing process" which means there is some progress being made. And all of this is not on our own, but with the help of the Lord, it can be done.

One sweet Christian lady (who has since gone to be with the Lord) put it this way: "Name one sin I have to commit." Gets a person to thinking.

Just my two cents.

 

[RaymondG]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

This line of thinking comes from the idea that we have not power over sin even after being filled with the spirit of God. I do not describe to this notion. I believe those filled with God cannot sin, like the bible says.

Lets face it.... If Jesus came on here and posted "Go and sin no more" or "Be ye Perfect" He would receive hundreds of "Optimistic" and "Im praying for you" ratings. Yet we claim to believe in Him and server Him otherwise....

 

[Albion]

So based on your rationale that someone who sins repeatedly did not actually have faith, how can someone depart from the faith when they did not actually possess it in the first place?

Obviously, they cannot. However, you appear to have misread what I wrote. I said that someone who "claimed to have saving Faith but thought he could get away with sinning repeatedly because he will always be forgiven afterwards" gives us reason to THINK that he never had Faith in the first place. You appear to have simply blown by four different "qualifiers" in my answer there.

Only believers are capable of apostatizing.

That isn't true either. The word refers to an adherent of a religion who then abandons or renounces his loyalty to it. There is no implication that he was part of the wheat or the tares, just that that it had been his religion.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

All other sins can either 1. lead to the death of the sinner or 2. be forgiven. So yes, there are indeed two kinds of sins spoken of in the Bible, ones that are pardonable, and one that is not .

Two different kinds of sin does not preclude the possibility of varying degrees of sin, though. The post you responded to suggested that greater sins would bring a person to Hell, while lesser sins would be overlooked, and I do not disagree with your response that there is only one such greater sin and that all other sins are equally forgivable, and all other sins lead equally to death. However, I would also say that this does not mean that all sins are equal in gravity. A small sin and a great sin both lead to Hell, but there is still a difference between them in that one is small and one is great.

The Unpardonable sin is the attributing of the works (Demonstration of Miracles) by the Holy Spirit to the works of Satan.

While this certainly is a form of blasphemy of the Spirit, I would ask you to consider the possibility that you may have narrowed the definition too much by boiling it down to just that one example. There are different ways to blaspheme the Spirit, and while it is clear that the Bible gives that as an example, it is not clear at all that the Bible suggests that that one specific action is the only way to commit that sin.

The "sin-management" approach to Christianity has a wake of spiritual abuse and harm so long that educated people tend to see religion now days as deeply problematic.

By the same reasoning do the spiritual people regard education now days as deeply problematic.

 

[Doug Melven]

Hi again Doug, I hear you, but the Bible is pretty specific about the unpardonable sin, yes! It says:

Mark 3
28 .."Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29 ..but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit ~NEVER~ has forgiveness, but is guilty of [committing] an eternal sin” (from the get-go, so to speak )
It seems to me that:

1. Blasphemy against the HS is something that is radically different from simply remaining in unbelief after hearing the Gospel. Also, blasphemy (against the HS or in general) is a sin of commission, while unbelief, a sin of omission, so the two could not be more different.

2. Unbelief is pardonable if you turn from it while you live (like any other sin is), but the unpardonable sin is not. Rather, it appears to be an eternal/unforgivable sin from the moment it's committed. IOW, it's a sin for which there can never be forgiveness, whether in this life or in the next.

What do you think it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
He convicts of unbelief, John 16:8-9, and if you consistently reject Him, you will not believe and you will remain in your unbelief, so how can there be forgiveness if you are rejecting the One who is offering forgiveness?

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That kind of thinking is exactly why there are no degrees of sin, it gets to bogged down.

Humans aren't the smartest species, I'm sure you have heard of the KISS principal?

Yet, Jesus dealt with them differently.
The woman at the well in John 4 was a sinner, she had been married 5 times and the man she was living with was not her husband. She was living a life of adultery. Most would call that a mortal sin.

In John 8:1-11 Jesus talks to a woman caught in adultery and gives her grace.

In Luke 5:27-29 Jesus forgives a publican and eats at his house.

In Mark 5 Jesus deals with a man who had a Legion of demons in him and sets him free.

In Mark 5:25-30 a woman with an issue of blood came and touched Jesus in the midst of a crowd.
In doing this she broke the laws that said if she went out in public she had to cry out that she was unclean, yet Jesus forgave her and told her it was her faith that made her well.

But, how did Jesus deal with the Pharisees? He showed them no such kindness. Most of the time they received the rough side of His tongue. Matthew 23 shows what Jesus thought about the Pharisees, lawyers and scribes.

Some sins are worse than others and will receive greater condemnation, but all sin is condemning.
The Pharisee and the adulterer will both go to hell if they don't repent.

 

[Oldmantook]

Obviously, they cannot. However, you appear to have misread what I wrote. I said that someone who "claimed to have saving Faith but thought he could get away with sinning repeatedly because he will always be forgiven afterwards" gives us reason to THINK that he never had Faith in the first place. You appear to have simply blown by four different "qualifiers" in my answer there.

So based on your qualifiers, suppose someone was genuinely saved and regenerated by the Spirit. He at some point falls into habitual sin and thinks he will always be forgiven because after all, he is saved. Is he still forgiven and saved if he does not forsake his practice of sin and not repent of it?

That isn't true either. The word refers to an adherent of a religion who then abandons or renounces his loyalty to it. There is no implication that he was part of the wheat or the tares, just that that it had been his religion.

I ask you again, how can someone who never belongs to the faith, depart from it? How can you abandon something or renounce something that you never followed or were loyal to in the first place? That's quite illogical. An "adherent" by definition is
: one who adheres to something: such as
a : a follower of a leader, party, or profession
Freud's adherents
b : a believer in or advocate especially of a particular idea or church
adherents of Christianity
adherents of socialism

An unsaved person is not an adherent of the faith and therefore cannot depart from it.

 

[Albion]

So based on your qualifiers, suppose someone was genuinely saved and regenerated by the Spirit. He at some point falls into habitual sin and thinks he will always be forgiven because after all, he is saved. Is he still forgiven and saved if he does not forsake his practice of sin and not repent of it?

I always think that observers ought to be cautious when saying other people are saved or not saved.

That is something that only God knows. However, I would guess that a person who meets the wording you gave us here--does not repent--would not be one who has saving Faith. An that goes ouble if when you say does not forsake his practice of sin is taken to mean that he doesn't try to avoid sinning.

I ask you again, how can someone who never belongs to the faith, depart from it?

I've already answered this.

 

[Oldmantook]

I always think that observers ought to be cautious when saying other people are saved or not saved.

That is something that only God knows. However, I would guess that a person who meets the wording you gave us here--does not repent--would not be one who has saving Faith. An that goes ouble if when you say does not forsake his practice of sin is taken to mean that he doesn't try to avoid sinning.

So that person who was once saved is now no longer saved because he continues to practice his sins and has not repented? Yes or No?'

I've already answered this.

I don't think so but suit yourself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

Look at the matter from the victims point of view. Do you a man who steaks every car you buy is forgiven and accepted by God? Now insurance pays for it so your own loss is maybe minimal. What if a person steals your job by stealing your ideas? No insurance covers that. Do you think God doesn’t mind if the person is a born again believer? (Don’t tell Christians don’t do this. The last pastor if our church committee adultery with the secretary and refused to repent. I am sure the lovers thought all was ok with God whereas the wife and children did not.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It would be. However, the format is wrong. A person is saved by Faith, but someone who has Faith in Christ will of course want to follow Him, which means attempting to do as the Lord taught. If the person in question claimed to have saving Faith but thought he could get away with sinning repeatedly because he will always be forgiven afterwards, we could be pretty sure that he did not actually have Faith. That is the theme of the New Testament book of James, by the way.

I wish people who believed this actually told others that if they continue to sin they were never saved and have no faith. What they generally say is that the sinner is saved no matter what sin they commit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Milos, post: 73013689, member: 392519"]Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.
This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?
What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".
But isn't that taking advantage of God?[/QUOTE
Trying to. No one can take advantage of God. He knows everything, always has, always will, everything that ever was, is or will be in, on, above, or beneath the earth.

Sin may prevent some (who think they are saved) from ever seeing God's Kingdom, ever.