Discussing sin, what is true and false

[Milos]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

 

[Albion]

It would be. However, the format is wrong. A person is saved by Faith, but someone who has Faith in Christ will of course want to follow Him, which means attempting to do as the Lord taught. If the person in question claimed to have saving Faith but thought he could get away with sinning repeatedly because he will always be forgiven afterwards, we could be pretty sure that he did not actually have Faith. That is the theme of the New Testament book of James, by the way.

 

[Halbhh]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

1 John addresses this directly. In chapter 1 and 3. We all sin, but are cleansed if we confess (chapter 1).

If we are truly born of God (and truly repent) we in time will cease a sin. We won't continue doing that sin routinely.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." .(3:9)

What makes us change? Real confessing, sincere -- truly not wanting to continue in that sin. Sometime we may need to pray for help also.

It's important to know though that sins aren't just whatever people say, but instead actual sins break this rule towards God or others:

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you, for this is the law and the prophets."

 

[dreadnought]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

There are consequences to our sin. If we repent, the Lord will forgive us. If we don't, he won't.

 

[Abaxvahl]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

Sin is of the utmost importance (not doing it), and perfection (not sinning either by action or inaction to yourself, others, or the Father) is possible in that way. To presume mercy and forgiveness is in itself a sin (saying that even if you go and sin, you can be forgiven), in fact Wisdom warns us of this in Sirach:

"Do not say, 'I sinned, and what happened to me?' for the Lord is slow to anger. Do not be so confident of atonement that you add sin to sin. Do not say, 'His mercy is great, He will forgive the multitude of my sins,' for both mercy and wrath are with Him, and His anger rest on sinners. Do not delay to turn to the Lord, nor postpone it from day to day; for suddenly the wrath of the Lord will go forth, and at the time of punishment you will perish." (Sirach 5:4-7)

And in another place, it says:

"Do not commit a sin twice; even for one you will not go unpunished. Do not say, 'He will consider the multitude of my gifts, and when I make an offering to the Most High He will accept it." (Sirach 7:8-9)

Those who presume His mercy and forgiveness to give themselves an excuse to sin are attempting to take advantage of God, and are in direct violation of His commands.

Will can be forgiven though for our sins if we confess, but never use God's mercy as an excuse for sin, be sorrowful for hurting the Lord, and ask for help to avoid every instance of sin.

The quote from Tertullian in my signature is apt for this as well.

 

[Sam91]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

Galatians 6:7

 

[Doug Melven]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

Paul asks and answers this question in Romans.
5:20 Where sin abounded, grace abounded much.
5:21 That as sin has reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD.
6:1 What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?

When Paul says, "God forbid", this is one of the strongest statements of denial there is.
I would rephrase it as, "What are you stupid for thinking such"

Sin has its own consequences.
I also don't believe the person exists that can actually take advantage over God.
It is beyond difficult to take advantage of a Being who is Omniscient and Omnipotent.
And He can read your thoughts easier than an open book.

 

[Milos]

I agree, they may think they are taking advantage of God. Doing something they know is bad, but thinking to themselves they are saved already so they think it doesn't matter to them.

 

[St_Worm2]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter...

Hi Milos, many consider Christianity because they are afraid of ending up in Hell/the Lake of Fire in the age to come. While this is perfectly understandable, it is actually our sins/sinful lifestyles, and that in the here and now, that the Lord came to save us from, first and foremost .. cf Matthew 1:21 (and from God's "wrath", of course, in the age to come .. e.g. Romans 5:8-10). Receiving a "Get Out of Hell for Free" pass is simply a bonus that comes as part of the "benefits package"

If someone has an interest in escaping Hell's everlasting fire in the next life, but no interest in leaving their sins/sinful lifestyle in the here and now, then I agree with the sentiments expressed in the quote below. Those who claim to have come to faith in Christ, but continue to live (or quickly return to living) the kind of sinful lifestyle that characterized their existence prior to making that claim should be warned that their "claim", in all likelihood, amounts to nothing more than that

Yours and His,
David

The nature of Christ's salvation is woefully misrepresented by the present-day evangelist. He announces a Saviour from Hell rather than a Saviour from sin. And that is why so many are fatally deceived, for there are multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness. ~Arthur W. Pink

 

[HTacianas]

The confusion created regarding sin is the idea that all sins are equal. They aren't. It is true that we all sin, in that we are all subject to petty acts of unrighteousness. Things like getting angry in traffic, saying unflattering things about our bosses, etc. All those are what the Roman church defines as venial sins. Mortal sin is a different matter.

We cannot continue in mortal sin, such as theft, murder, blasphemy, sexual immorality and so forth and simply "write it off" as forgiven simply because we've recited some words in front of a priest. "God is not mocked", and "what you sow you shall reap".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Many areas of the Church are still developing in their perception of God. The Early Church held to and preached that God was a good, loving God, who wants all to be saved and not to perish. The emphasis was on that God is love, He loves us, therefore we should love one another. People were brought to Christ on the message that God loves them, wants to save, heal and cast demons out of them so that they will be free to love and serve Jesus. But somewhere along the line, the message changed to, "If you have sinned, God will come and get you, and beat you with His big stick!" This negative teaching went on for hundreds of years until Martin Luther discovered that God is really a good God who loves people and wants to save them. The characteristic of the Reformation was to restore faith in a God who is love. The churches that have been able to show that God is love, and is a good God who wants the best for us are the ones that are most alive and growing. The ones who are retaining elements of an angry God who will punish people for their sin are the ones that are declining, and they have to perpetuate the fear and dread of God to keep what membership they have. There are churches that say they are the true church and if members leave, they will go to hell. We have churches like that in New Zealand. A more subtle approach is that "If you leave our church, you will go to an inferior one and you won't have the same close walk with God or power in your ministry, because you will be leaving the church that is at the cutting edge of what God is doing today." This sort of teaching makes people afraid of leaving a church that is hurting and limiting them in their Christian walk and finding another church that will give them freedom to walk with Christ in love, grace, mercy, and just sheer joy.

So, if your church is one of those limiting, sin conscious places that is controlling their members through fear and spiritual bullying, get out of it and find a church that will show you the love of Christ, who died for your sins, set you free from punishment and guilt and who has given you the Holy Spirit to have joy unspeakable and full of glory.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

The bible tells us that,

Heb 12:8-9 God corrects all of his children, and if he doesn't correct you, then you don't really belong to him. Our earthly fathers correct us, and we still respect them. Isn't it even better to be given true life by letting our spiritual Father correct us?

All sin is forgivable, and thus forgiven, however God corrects all His children, if we do wrong He lets us know. A person who just goes on sinning, claiming grace has lost sensitivity to God's correction, and is in grave danger of falling into God's final judgment. God will continually try to pull a person away from sin, and he gives a lot of mercy, but we still must "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling". We must try not to sin.

Heb 6:7-8 A field is useful to farmers, if there is enough rain to make good crops grow. In fact, God will bless that field. But land that produces only thornbushes is worthless. It is likely to fall under God's curse, and in the end it will be set on fire.

 

[St_Worm2]

The confusion created regarding sin is the idea that all sins are equal. They aren't. It is true that we all sin, in that we are all subject to petty acts of unrighteousness. Things like getting angry in traffic, saying unflattering things about our bosses, etc. All those are what the Roman church defines as venial sins. Mortal sin is a different matter. We cannot continue in mortal sin, such as theft, murder, blasphemy, sexual immorality and so forth....

Hi HTacianas, "venial" or "mortal", sin is sin, because ALL sin is disobedience against God and His law, by commission or omission, by the letter and/or by the spirit.

One of the principle proofs we have of this fact lies in the first sin of our first parents, which had the most devastating effect and scope of any "mortal" sin that has ever been committed. Did they commit theft or murder or blasphemy or sexual immorality, or anything else that we might consider a "mortal" sin? Nope, they disobeyed God by taking a bite out of an apple, which, BTW, was an apple from their own tree in their own garden. Yes, they disobeyed God when they did so, but how much more "venial" can you get than that sin was (all sin is disobedience to God).

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - there is an unpardonable sin that always leads to death, but all other sins and blasphemies can be forgiven, on this side of Glory anyway .. Matthew 12:30-31; 1 John 1:9, 5:16-17.

James 2
10 Whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at just one point, is guilty of breaking all of it.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery, but you do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
.​

 

[HTacianas]

Hi HTacianas, "venial" or "mortal", sin is sin, because ALL sin is disobedience against God and His law, by commission or omission, by the letter and/or by the spirit.

One of the principle proofs we have of this fact lies in the first sin of our first parents, which had the most devastating effect and scope of any "mortal" sin that has ever been committed. Did they commit theft or murder or blasphemy or sexual immorality, or anything else that we might consider a "mortal" sin? Nope, they disobeyed God by taking a bite out of an apple, which, BTW, was an apple from their own tree in their own garden. How much more "venial" can you get than that

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - there is an unpardonable sin that always leads to death, but all other sins and blasphemies can be forgiven, on this side of Glory anyway .. Matthew 12:30-31; 1 John 1:9, 5:16-17.

If "sin is sin" the bible wouldn't say differently.

 

[St_Worm2]

If "sin is sin" the bible wouldn't say differently.

Sorry for any confusion. I added a p.s. that clarified that point at the end of my last post, because you are correct, there is a sin that leads to death/cannot be forgiven, in this life or the next. All other sins can either 1. lead to the death of the sinner or 2. be forgiven. So yes, there are indeed two kinds of sins spoken of in the Bible, ones that are pardonable, and one that is not .. Matthew 12:30-31; 1 John 1:9, 5:16-17.

 

[Doug Melven]

Sorry for any confusion. I added a p.s. that clarified that point at the end of my last post, because you are correct, there is a sin that leads to death/cannot be forgiven, in this life or the next. All other sins can either 1. lead to the death of the sinner or 2. be forgiven. So yes, there are indeed two kinds of sins spoken of in the Bible, ones that are pardonable, and one that is not .. Matthew 12:30-31; 1 John 1:9, 5:16-17.

I would also say there are 2 more classes of sins.
Fleshly sins like adultery and theft versus the diabolical sins like self-righteousness and pride.
Look at how Jesus dealt with "sinners" versus how He dealt with the Pharisees.

 

[St_Worm2]

I would also say there are 2 more classes of sins.
Fleshly sins like adultery and theft versus the diabolical sins like self-righteousness and pride.
Look at how Jesus dealt with "sinners" versus how He dealt with the Pharisees.

Hi Doug, you make an interesting point!! Thanks

As to @HTacianas and his point about the RCC's venial and mortal sins, IYHO, does "UNFORGIVEN" sin in any flavor (whether those sins are "fleshy" or "diabolical"/"venial" or "mortal") always lead to the death of the sinner who committed them?

Thanks again!

--David

 

[Doug Melven]

Hi Doug, you make an interesting point!! Thanks

As to @HTacianas and his point about the RCC's venial and mortal sins, IYHO, does "UNFORGIVEN" sin in any flavor (whether those sins are "fleshy" or "diabolical"/"venial" or "mortal") always lead to the death of the sinner who committed them?

Thanks again!

--David

The unforgivable sin is rejection of the Holy Spirit's working in someone convicting them of there unbelief.
As long as someone is alive (breathing) there is hope for them to accept Christ. If they die rejecting Him, they cannot be forgiven. That is the unforgivable sin.

The wages of sin is death. But there is more than just one form of death.
Sickness is a form of death. Dying, as being put in the grave is another, and then there is the Second death which is eternal. Unbelief will warrant the Second death.
The other sins can kill as well, but not result in the Second death, just physical death.

 

[St_Worm2]

As long as someone is alive (breathing) there is hope for them to accept Christ. If they die rejecting Him, they cannot be forgiven. That is the unforgivable sin.

Hi again Doug, I hear you, but the Bible is pretty specific about the unpardonable sin, yes! It says:

Mark 3
28 .."Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter;
29 ..but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit ~NEVER~ has forgiveness, but is guilty of [committing] an eternal sin” (from the get-go, so to speak )​

It seems to me that:

1. Blasphemy against the HS is something that is radically different from simply remaining in unbelief after hearing the Gospel. Also, blasphemy (against the HS or in general) is a sin of commission, while unbelief, a sin of omission, so the two could not be more different.

2. Unbelief is pardonable if you turn from it while you live (like any other sin is), but the unpardonable sin is not. Rather, it appears to be an eternal/unforgivable sin from the moment it's committed. IOW, it's a sin for which there can never be forgiveness, whether in this life or in the next.​

Yours and His,
David

 

[JIMINZ]

Many people have told me sin doesn't matter, we are all sinners and that it is forgiven anyway.

This doesn't seem to make sense, yes I agree we are all sinners but once we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and then after that commit sins that we know is wrong? Is it sin that draws us away from God?

What they are telling me is basically this. A thief that steals is bad, but he is forgiven, then the thief steals, again and again, knowing that he is forgiven since "we are all sinners".

But isn't that taking advantage of God?

No it isn't taking advantage of God.

The thief that never stops (Repents) of his stealing was never saved in the first place.

You shall know them by their fruits.