Dinosaur footprints destroy flood geology.

[Nathan Poe]

But suppose God removed the water upward --- say, took it to Mars, as Dad suggested; or Neptune, as I suggested?

How would that affect what we interpret today, geologically?

By revoking gravity to suck up the water, the atmosphere would go too -- resulting in absolutely no life on this planet, making the study of geology moot.

Of course, you counter this in the only way you possibly can -- by inventing yet another miracle which the Bible does not have, further negating reality.

I say, AV you and dad are far more prolific mythmakers than the Bible authors.

 

[AintNoMonkey]

I conclude I don't get it is because your answers (and OP) are mixing long-history terminology (Mesozoic, etc.) with a short-history paradigm (YEC).
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Actually, the terminology of the geologic time scale is not based on absolute age. It is based upon a set of beds that indicate the ending of one period, eon, era, etc. and the beginning of another. Dates have been found for each of the divisions, based on isotopic dating methods, but these dates are in flux as new and better information is obtained about the boundaries, such that the geologic time scale is revised on a yearly basis.

So even if you disagree with the TIMING of the events, the terminology still fits. As this is the case, you should now be able to reconsile your misunderstanding and address the question fully.

 

[AV1611VET]

So even if you disagree with the TIMING of the events, the terminology still fits. As this is the case, you should now be able to reconsile your misunderstanding and address the question fully.

My friend --- I don't even understand the question.

It sounds to me like he's saying dinosaurs walked through water, making footprints. Then the Flood came, and forests somehow laid down a layer of carbo[something] over those footprints.

But then he's showing me pictures of the footprints on top of the soil.

When the Ark settled on Mt Ararat --- I have the feeling there were no footprints anywhere.

And later, when the dinosaurs disembarked and started walking around, they made tracks that's in those pictures.

This Paleozoic and Mesozoic and Neozoic stuff is for the birds; unless you want to classify them as such:

• Paleozoic = 1st generation animals - (in the Garden of Eden, for example)
• Mesozoic = unicorns, satyrs, dragons, 4-legged grasshoppers, fowled bats, dinosaurs, behemoths, leviathans, cud-chewing hares
• Neozoic = whatever exists today

 

[Nathan Poe]

My friend --- I don't even understand the question.

It sounds to me like he's saying dinosaurs walked through water, making footprints. Then the Flood came, and forests somehow laid down a layer of carbo[something] over those footprints.

Well, at least you're honest -- you don't understand.

But then he's showing me pictures of the footprints on top of the soil.

That would be the soil allegedly laid down by the Flood, correct?

When the Ark settled on Mt Ararat --- I have the feeling there were no footprints anywhere.

And why not?

And later, when the dinosaurs disembarked and started walking around, they made tracks that's in those pictures.

So the dinos were on the ark, then. You realize that you've just at least tripled the number of "Kinds" that would have to fit on this already overcrowded vessel.

It's going to require a whole new barrage of miracles to somehow pass this off as history -- and even then, you'll miss the original point of the story.

 

[dlamberth]

But suppose God removed the water upward --- say, took it to Mars, as Dad suggested; or Neptune, as I suggested?

How would that affect what we interpret today, geologically?

***visualizes a really long and big straw of God sucking a lot water from Earth to Mars or Neptune.***

.

 

[AintNoMonkey]

My friend --- I don't even understand the question.

This much is clear.

It sounds to me like he's saying dinosaurs walked through water, making footprints. Then the Flood came, and forests somehow laid down a layer of carbo[something] over those footprints.

He is saying that according to YEC, a layer of beds was deposited under fathoms of water during the flood, and then another layer was deposited on top of that, still under fathoms of 'flood' water. But because we see dinosaur footprints within, below, and on top of both the first and second bed, this couldn't possibly be true.

But then he's showing me pictures of the footprints on top of the soil.

That is where dinos generally resided. Understand that what is currently exposed may not be the top of the particular bed sequence, hence why the prints were preserved. He also showed footprints preserved by the bottom of beds.

When the Ark settled on Mt Ararat --- I have the feeling there were no footprints anywhere.

Assuming this happened, and dinosaurs were aboard, we would expect to see their footprints radiating out from Ararat as they re-populated the earth. Instead we see time-syncronous and bed-syncronous footprints and other trace fossils around the world, which shouldn't be possible given the amount of time it would take the creatures to travel from ararat to where they are found.

And later, when the dinosaurs disembarked and started walking around, they made tracks that's in those pictures.

As I just said, no.

This Paleozoic and Mesozoic and Neozoic stuff is for the birds; unless you want to classify them as such:

• Paleozoic = 1st generation animals - (in the Garden of Eden, for example).
• Mesozoic = unicorns, satyrs, dragons, 4-legged grasshoppers, fowled bats, dinosaurs, behemoths, leviathans
• Neozoic = whatever exists today

They are not classified as such, and won't be because these classifications are scientifically, socially, and religiously useless.

What it is for is for people who are of the mind to understand this history of the earth and stratigraphy to relate to eachother the timing and sequence of events, among other things.

 

[Nathan Poe]

***visualizes a really long and big straw of God sucking a lot water form Earth to Mars or Neptune.***

.

Wondering why God, having miraculously disposed of the Flood waters, would feel compelled to deposit them on a separate planet.

Certainly someone who can operate ex nihilo is equally comfortable at performing in nihilo works as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

He is saying that according to YEC, a layer of beds was deposited under fathoms of water during the flood, and then another layer was deposited on top of that, still under fathoms of 'flood' water.

How? Did these beds float on top at one point, then sink?

Were these beds washed on top of another bed?

Take a plastic swimming pool and fill it half full of sand, then put a layer of flowers and sticks and stuff on top of the sand. Now place water sprinklers around the pool and turn them on for awhile until everything is underwater.

Are you saying that after the pool dries completely, the flowers and trees and stuff will be in vertical layers?

Note: I guess there would be some vertical layering; but for the most part, I'd say they'd still be horizontal.

But because we see dinosaur footprints within, below, and on top of both the first and second bed, this couldn't possibly be true.

Well I suppose then that the dinosaurs that lived outside the Ark got vertical-layered along with the flora. Just like in the swimming pool.

That is where dinos generally resided. Understand that what is currently exposed may not be the top of the particular bed sequence, hence why the prints were preserved. He also showed footprints preserved by the bottom of beds.

Well, to use a morbid example, I would surmise they found desks and stuff from the 10th floor on top of the 911 rubbish --- even though the buildings pancaked.

Assuming this happened, and dinosaurs were aboard, we would expect to see their footprints radiating out from Ararat as they re-populated the earth. Instead we see time-syncronous and bed-syncronous footprints and other trace fossils around the world, which shouldn't be possible given the amount of time it would take the creatures to travel from ararat to where they are found.

Like I told Thaumaturgy, I'm sure these plates and stuff got shuffled like a deck of cards when Pangaea was split into what we now have as seven continents.

They are not classified as such, and won't be because these classifications are scientifically, socially, and religiously useless.

That's because science is so myopic, they create their own blind spot, which we Creationists use to pwn them.

 

[AV1611VET]

Certainly someone who can operate ex nihilo is equally comfortable at performing in nihilo works as well.

That would violate the Law of Conservation, which was instituted before the Fall.

As I have said before, the Creation is a series of steps whereby the amount of mass/energy rose to its current level over a period of six days.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That would violate the Law of Conservation, which was instituted before the Fall.

As I have said before, the Creation is a series of steps whereby the amount of mass/energy rose to its current level over a period of six days.

Ah, so in this post-Fall world, God's power has been severely limited. Check.

 

[Split Rock]

But suppose God removed the water upward --- say, took it to Mars, as Dad suggested; or Neptune, as I suggested?

Leave it to AVET to make dad seem almost reasonable... LOL!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Leave it to AVET to make dad seem almost reasonable... LOL!

All motion is relative -- including, it seems, how far the cheese has slipped off one's cracker.

 

[AintNoMonkey]

How? Did these beds float on top at one point, then sink?

Were these beds washed on top of another bed?

Take a plastic swimming pool and fill it half full of sand, then put a layer of flowers and sticks and stuff on top of the sand. Now place water sprinklers around the pool and turn them on for awhile until everything is underwater.

Are you saying that after the pool dries completely, the flowers and trees and stuff will be in vertical layers?

Note: I guess there would be some vertical layering; but for the most part, I'd say they'd still be horizontal.

I'm not even sure YOU know WTH you're talking about here. I know I don't. Who ever said anything about vertical beds? Floating beds? FLOWERS? Swimming pools? If you're trying to make an analogy, you're failing miserably.

Well I suppose then that the dinosaurs that lived outside the Ark got vertical-layered along with the flora. Just like in the swimming pool.

Again, what is this verticle layering trash you're tossing about?

Well, to use a morbid example, I would surmise they found desks and stuff from the 10th floor on top of the 911 rubbish --- even though the buildings pancaked.

You're right, that is morbid, and rather uncalled for. It would be slightly more acceptable if it had anything to do with the converstation, or was a useful analogy, but it isn't.

Like I told Thaumaturgy, I'm sure these plates and stuff got shuffled like a deck of cards when Pangaea was split into what we now have as seven continents.

Regardless of position during pangea, some of the locations would be far enough away as to be prohibative. Anyway, the fact that they are in supposed 'flood deposits' makes this a moot point.

That's because science is so myopic, they create their own blind spot, which we Creationists use to pwn them.

I'm sorry, but you've never 'pwned' anybody on this board. Most of the time (this thread being a good example) all you display is a lack of understanding of basic questions and principles, a fantastic unwillingness to even consider that your worldview might just be a tad off kilter, even when presented with undeniable (to the sound of mind) proof to affirm this, and an impressive ability to explain away what you don't like with little myths and stories that a 3rd grader with Downs' Syndrome would find suspect.

 

[AV1611VET]

Most of the time (this thread being a good example) all you display is a lack of understanding of basic questions and principles, a fantastic unwillingness to even consider that your worldview might just be a tad off kilter, even when presented with undeniable (to the sound of mind) proof to affirm this, and an impressive ability to explain away what you don't like with little myths and stories that a 3rd grader with Downs' Syndrome would find suspect.

Fair enough --- I'll just vacate this thread.

There's way too much "science" in it and not enough Theology.

 

[AintNoMonkey]

Fair enough --- I'll just vacate this thread.

There's way too much "science" in it and not enough Theology.

How typical.

Quick, everybody! Innundate the board with science, maybe we can rid ourselves of this troll once and for all.

 

[NavyGuy7]

(Should I go for it? I dunno sounds dicey. Get ahold of yourself, Alex!)
*slams desk, Phoenix Wright style*
"I suppose you're assuming that you even have the "dating" of this "irrefutable" evidence is completely accurate? As well as the geology at the time.
How do you even know for sure that these are... "dinosaur" footprints?
*realizes he isn't getting anywhere, and is bluffing... Phoenix Wright style.*
*Also doesn't know exactly what a YEC is... but is assuming it's an acronym for Young Earth Creationists... whatever those are...*

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Fair enough --- I'll just vacate this thread.

There's way too much "science" in it and not enough Theology.

AV; I am very disappointed that you see fit to vacate this thread. What is really sad is that I think you at last caught a glimpse of how powerful a tool science is at reconstructing the past.

There is absolutely no doubt that the sedimentary deposits found world wide are not the consequence of a global flood. Interpreting the evidence including palaeosols, dinosaur tracks, burrows, fossil roots etc overwhelmingly indicate Uniformiatrianism. There is no getting away from it, the flood never happened.

You have taken the only course of action open to any YEC that glimpses the truth through observing the evidence. Buried your head in the sand and ignored the evidence.

You stated “to much science”, that from a person who is communicating with people from around the globe, using science: uses hospitals and treatment based on science: Sits down to diner every night to eat food grown and developed by science: everything in your world with the exception of magical mysticism is science based.

Look at the image below it not only contains dinosaur track but also ripple marks. Interpretation; dinosaur walking across soft sediment laid down in low enerny fluvial environment.

These sediments are not global flood deposits, and remember these types of trace fossils can be found throughout the Mesozoic.

NO FLOOD

 

[RobertByers]

Dinosaur prints are a gain for creationism. They show the creatures were walking on the newly laid sediment before it was solid rock. In fact the footprints and the sediment below could only of been made rock at the same time.
The flood was not mere water collection but was about great pressurized water moving about in different currents and with therefore different sorting going on.
One layer would of been laid hours before another. So animals could of still been walking on the new sediment.
In fact it is a unlikely concept that dinosaurs etc can make any inpression in dirt without that impression needing immediate covering to allow fossilization.
The footprints could only occur because of fluid sediment and fluid moving sediment to cover .
Robert Byers

 

[Chalnoth]

Dinosaur prints are a gain for creationism. They show the creatures were walking on the newly laid sediment before it was solid rock. In fact the footprints and the sediment below could only of been made rock at the same time.
The flood was not mere water collection but was about great pressurized water moving about in different currents and with therefore different sorting going on.
One layer would of been laid hours before another. So animals could of still been walking on the new sediment.
In fact it is a unlikely concept that dinosaurs etc can make any inpression in dirt without that impression needing immediate covering to allow fossilization.
The footprints could only occur because of fluid sediment and fluid moving sediment to cover .
Robert Byers

Uh, if moving fluid sediment covered those layers, they would destroy the footprints. The footprints have to dry and harden before covering for preservation.

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

Dinosaur prints are a gain for creationism. They show the creatures were walking on the newly laid sediment before it was solid rock. In fact the footprints and the sediment below could only of been made rock at the same time.
The flood was not mere water collection but was about great pressurized water moving about in different currents and with therefore different sorting going on.
One layer would of been laid hours before another. So animals could of still been walking on the new sediment.
In fact it is a unlikely concept that dinosaurs etc can make any inpression in dirt without that impression needing immediate covering to allow fossilization.
The footprints could only occur because of fluid sediment and fluid moving sediment to cover .
Robert Byers

Wrong Again: The dinosaurs were walking on newly deposited sediments that is a fact, however you are making the YEC fundamental error; you are ignoring all the other evidence i.e. palaeosols, coal beds with associated root systems, burrows, desiccation cracks, unconformities, mineralization, hard ground the list is endless.

You explanation above is a very poor one as far as dinosaur foot prints go, but as far as the rest of the evidence goes, all it does is show your total lack of understanding for natural processes.

All the evidence can be accommodated into Uniformiatrianism.

None of the evidence can be accommodated into YEC creationism

Below is an unconformity located in Britain: The lower rocks are Carboniferous, the upper rocks are Cretaceous, what is really interesting is that between the two is a fossilised ecosystem including dino fossils as well as a gap of ~200 milion years. The lower rocks have been buried to considerable depth and undergone mineralization the upper rocks have not. All the rocks were laid down in shallow clean water, i.e. there are no clastic sediments, there rocks are bio-clastic, that is they were formed by living creatures and are 100s of metres thick.