Difference between Orthodox and Roman sacraments?

[Not David]

I read in a catechism book (in Spanish) that sacraments in Orthodoxy are asked by the priest to the Holy Spirit while in Roman Catholicism they are done directly by the priest. Is that true? I put it in the discussion forum so that Catholics can explain too

 

[tampasteve]

Can you elaborate on what you mean "sacraments in Orthodoxy are asked by the priest to the Holy Spirit while in Roman Catholicism they are done directly by the priest"? Do you mean specific Sacraments or all of them?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I read in a catechism book (in Spanish) that sacraments in Orthodoxy are asked by the priest to the Holy Spirit while in Roman Catholicism they are done directly by the priest. Is that true? I put it in the discussion forum so that Catholics can explain too

sort of. in Orthodoxy, we have no understanding of in persona Christi. just check out the wording of a baptism service.

 

[Not David]

sort of. in Orthodoxy, we have no understanding of in persona Christi. just check out the wording of a baptism service.

What is In persona Christi?

 

[Not David]

Can you elaborate on what you mean "sacraments in Orthodoxy are asked by the priest to the Holy Spirit while in Roman Catholicism they are done directly by the priest"? Do you mean specific Sacraments or all of them?

For example in Catholic baptism the priest says "I baptize you" while in Orthodoxy the priest says "the servant of God is baptised".

 

[tampasteve]

What is In persona Christi?

The priest is standing in the place of Christ; so, while it is the priest baptizing, he is doing it in the name, or person, of Christ. He is the legal stand in for the physical Christ.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is In persona Christi?

The priest is standing in the place of Christ; so, while it is the priest baptizing, he is doing it in the name, or person, of Christ. He is the legal stand in for the physical Christ.

this, and we absolutely reject this idea.

 

[Not David]

this, and we absolutely reject this idea.

Why is it wrong Father?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why is it wrong Father?

because I am not the stand in for Christ, since He is present and acting. I might be an instrument that He uses, but not His stand in.

 

[Not David]

because I am not the stand in for Christ, since He is present and acting. I might be an instrument that He uses, but not His stand in.

Is that why confession is face to face and in front of the Icon of Christ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is that why confession is face to face and in front of the Icon of Christ?

yes, because the confession and absolution are ultimately from Christ, not the priest.

 

[zippy2006]

I read in a catechism book (in Spanish) that sacraments in Orthodoxy are asked by the priest to the Holy Spirit while in Roman Catholicism they are done directly by the priest. Is that true? I put it in the discussion forum so that Catholics can explain too

The "epiclesis" or calling down of the Spirit is a necessary part of Catholic sacramental rites. That said, Orthodoxy does seem to have a stronger theology of the Holy Spirit, or Pneumatology.

I do not know whether in persona Christi is different among the Orthodox. From what ArmyMatt has said, it seems very similar to Catholicism.

 

[AMM]

In Lutheran practice, at absolution (for example) the priest says along the lines of “in the stead and by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, I absolve you of all your sins...”

Would the Orthodox reject this and say rather that the priest is not “in the stead of Christ” or “replacing Christ” or even “acting on behalf of Christ”, but rather that Christ is truly present and performing the actions of the priest, even if we cannot visibly see Christ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

The "epiclesis" or calling down of the Spirit is a necessary part of Catholic sacramental rites. That said, Orthodoxy does seem to have a stronger theology of the Holy Spirit, or Pneumatology.

I do not know whether in persona Christi is different among the Orthodox. From what ArmyMatt has said, it seems very similar to Catholicism.

we reject in persona Christi.

 

[zippy2006]

we reject in persona Christi.

Both Orthodox and Catholics believe that when, for example, a person is absolved, Christ is ultimately the one who does the absolving. We can use whatever term we like to denote that reality. I am perfectly comfortable not using "in persona Christi" to denote it. The theology behind that term is complicated and, to a large extent, controversial.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Both Orthodox and Catholics believe that when, for example, a person is absolved, Christ is ultimately the one who does the absolving. We can use whatever term we like to denote that reality. I am perfectly comfortable not using "in persona Christi" to denote it. The theology behind that term is complicated and, to a large extent, controversial.

let me ask this. what are the actual words that a Catholic priest says when someone is baptized?

 

[zippy2006]

let me ask this. what are the actual words that a Catholic priest says when someone is baptized?

I believe it is, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

It may be true that Orthodox language ("Be baptized...") better reflects anti-Donatistic theology, but baptism isn't a great example. This is because the formula for a valid baptism is loose, and allows for laypersons to baptize as well. Further, the idea that the sacramental grace imparted by baptism comes from the person baptizing doesn't make much sense theologically. The question of in persona Christi capitis comes to a head most clearly in the case of the consecration of the Eucharistic elements and in absolution, and also perhaps in the conferral of Holy Orders.

 

[ArmyMatt]

right, we say "the servant of God is baptized..." not "I baptize."

that reflects a very different understanding.

and fine, what does the priest say for the consecration and for absolution?

 

[zippy2006]

right, we say "the servant of God is baptized..." not "I baptize."

that reflects a very different understanding.

and fine, what does the priest say for the consecration and for absolution?

There are a number of different anaphoras that can be used during Mass. The words of the anaphora from the second Eucharistic prayer is as follows:

At the time he was betrayed,
and entered willingly into his Passion,
He took bread and, giving thanks, broke it,
and gave it to his disciples, saying:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND EAT OF IT,
FOR THIS IS MY BODY,
WHICH WILL BE GIVEN UP FOR YOU.

In a similar way, when supper was ended,
he took the chalice
and, once more giving thanks,
he gave it to his disciples, saying:

TAKE THIS, ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK FROM IT,
FOR THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD,
THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND ETERNAL COVENANT,
WHICH WILL BE POURED OUT FOR YOU AND FOR MANY
FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.
DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.
​

Absolution is as follows:

God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church, may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
​

What are the Orthodox equivalents?

 

[ArmyMatt]

to your first, we call upon the Spirit to consecrate the Gifts.

to your second, it's "may God forgive thee through me his unworthy priest..." the priest doesn't say "I absolve you."

Orthodox priests are never the absolvers or consecraters. it's always God Himself.