Difference between Orthodox and Roman sacraments?

[zippy2006]

to your first, we call upon the Spirit to consecrate the Gifts.

As do we. An earlier part of the second Eucharistic prayer that I quoted is as follows:

You are indeed Holy, O Lord,
the fount of all holiness.
Make Holy, therefore, these gifts, we pray,
by sending down your Spirit upon them like the dewfall,
so that they may become for us
the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

to your second, it's "may God forgive thee through me his unworthy priest..." the priest doesn't say "I absolve you."

Orthodox priests are never the absolvers or consecraters. it's always God Himself.

Can laypersons absolve and consecrate?

 

[Anhelyna]

Zippy said <<Can laypersons absolve and consecrate?>>

that's an easy one to answer - NO

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can laypersons absolve and consecrate?

no, Christ does that through His priests and bishops. but with us, there isn't any language of the priest doing the action. it is God at work.

 

[Not David]

no, Christ does that through His priests and bishops. but with us, there isn't any language of the priest doing the action. it is God at work.

Don't the verses about "bounding on Earth" and "I will forgive the sins of whom you forgive" mean the bishop/priest is doing it on first person?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Don't the verses about "bounding on Earth" and "I will forgive the sins of whom you forgive" mean the bishop/priest is doing it on first person?

nope. but even if it was, that's not a defense for in persona Christi.

 

[Not David]

nope. but even if it was, that's not a defense for in persona Christi.

But Christ isn't saying "if you ask I will forgive their sins".

 

[zippy2006]

But Christ isn't saying "if you ask I will forgive their sins".

Thank you for bringing in some of the Scriptural references. I had planned to do that eventually.

In persona Christi is complicated. My sacramental professor in the seminary was adamant that Christ acts through the priest's action, not his person. Granted, this is a subtle distinction because both of our Churches agree that Christ does not act to, say, consecrate the Eucharist through the laity. So Christ is present in the action of the anaphora, but not in the person of the priest when he is, say, walking down the street. (Here I am thinking only about sacramental theology, for clearly Christ is present to us in non-sacramental ways and he is present to priests in ways that are unrelated to their Orders).

It seems likely to me that our Churches also understand the nature of a person acting as an instrumental cause, differently. Granted the Orthodox have always struck me as being closer to the Thomistic position on grace than the Molinistic position on grace, and I would be surprised if this does not flow into sacramental theology. One difficulty is that it is harder to find an Orthodox theologian who is willing to try to shed light on these mysteries along with the relevant differences. So it's a bit of a guessing game. And the topic is probably too complicated for short-form forum discussions.

I do agree that the Scriptures seem to show God commissioning men to forgive sins, and that the men have the power to bind and loose (although this power inevitably comes from God). Interestingly, you will see the same theme in the OT prophets, but the older prophets seemed to have a higher place in the divine assembly, and thus more power to exercise the divine energies. Later prophets are dreamers, visionaries, and interpreters who are not shown to have full command of the interpretation of even their own visions and dreams.

 

[ArmyMatt]

But Christ isn't saying "if you ask I will forgive their sins".

true, but He also doesn't say the priest is His stand in either.

 

[prodromos]

Marriage in the Latin rite is completely different to the East. In the Latin, the couple getting married are also the celebrants, and I've never received an answer as to why annulment of marriage in Rome for some defect in one of the celebrants, isn't a form of Donatism

 

[zippy2006]

no, Christ does that through His priests and bishops. but with us, there isn't any language of the priest doing the action. it is God at work.

That's fine, but the priest does the action. Of course God is at work, but it is equally obvious that the priest is doing something. If the priest decides not to act--if the priest sits silent in the confessional and ignores the penitent--then absolution is not given (so far as we know).

If you, as a priest, wonder whether someone was absolved of their sins, you do not go to God and ask him if they were forgiven. The first thing you would do is go into your memory and determine whether you gave the absolution before they left the confessional. And if the person asked you if their sins had been forgiven, you would tell them, "Yes." How do you and the person know that absolution was given? Because the priest did something, and that 'something' leads to the absolution of sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's fine, but the priest does the action. Of course God is at work, but it is equally obvious that the priest is doing something. If the priest decides not to act--if the priest sits silent in the confessional and ignores the penitent--then absolution is not given (so far as we know).

If you, as a priest, wonder whether someone was absolved of their sins, you do not go to God and ask him if they were forgiven. The first thing you would do is go into your memory and determine whether you gave the absolution before they left the confessional. And if the person asked you if their sins had been forgiven, you would tell them, "Yes." How do you and the person know that absolution was given? Because the priest did something, and that 'something' leads to the absolution of sin.

no one is saying the priest does nothing. that's not the issue.

 

[zippy2006]

Marriage in the Latin rite is completely different to the East. In the Latin, the couple getting married are also the celebrants, and I've never received an answer as to why annulment of marriage in Rome for some defect in one of the celebrants, isn't a form of Donatism

Is there an equivalent to a declaration of nullity in Orthodoxy?

Though I am probably not the one to answer your question, it does not seem to me that a declaration of nullity is based on worthiness. For us, there are certain conditions that need to be met in order to have a valid marriage. If those conditions were not present then the marriage is not valid, and can be declared null. It is true that most of the conditions are related to the two persons themselves. For example, if someone is not capable of making a free choice (due to, say, age or mental illness) they are not capable of entering into a marriage.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Is there an equivalent to a declaration of nullity in Orthodoxy?

Though I am probably not the one to answer your question, it does not seem to me that a declaration of nullity is based on worthiness. For us, there are certain conditions that need to be met in order to have a valid marriage. If those conditions were not present then the marriage is not valid, and can be declared null. It is true that most of the conditions are related to the two persons themselves. For example, if someone is not capable of making a free choice (due to, say, age or mental illness) they are not capable of entering into a marriage.

no, there is no nullity for us.

 

[AMM]

no, Christ does that through His priests and bishops. but with us, there isn't any language of the priest doing the action. it is God at work.

Father, I'm interested if you can clarify something. I was reading some articles from the Bulgarian Diocese and the one on confession says the following (emphasis mine):

After this, the Priest lays his Epitrachelion (stole) on the Penitent's head and says the Prayer of Absolution, which differs in the Russian and Greek practices. In the Greek practice, the Priest says: Whatever you have said to my humble person, and whatever you have failed to say, whether through ignorance or forgetfulness, whatever it may be, may God forgive you in this world and the next.... Have no further anxiety; go in peace. The Slavonic formula of absolution, introduced by Peter Moghila, Metropolitan of Kiev and adopted by the Russian Church in the 18th Century, is as follows: May Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, through the grace and bounties of His love towards mankind, forgive you, my Child [Name] all your transgressions. And I, an unworthy Priest, through the power given me by Him, forgive and absolve you from all yours sins.

The latter phrasing, from the slavonic tradition, seems to be the priest doing the action, while Christ is nevertheless present (right before there is the prayer "may...Christ...forgive you").

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, you do find that in some translations, but read the paragraph right before the latter one highlighted.

and it's still not in persona Christi

 

[AMM]

yeah, you do find that in some translations, but read the paragraph right before the latter one highlighted.

and it's still not in persona Christi

so it's not wrong for the priest to say "I forgive you, etc." as long as it's clear (with the other passages and sentences that the priest reads) that it's really Christ who is forgiving the sins, using the priest as his instrument and the means to forgive the sins?

 

[ArmyMatt]

so it's not wrong for the priest to say "I forgive you, etc." as long as it's clear (with the other passages and sentences that the priest reads) that it's really Christ who is forgiving the sins, using the priest as his instrument and the means to forgive the sins?

yes, just like every sacrament.

 

[Not David]

Another question. Is it said that the Roman priest investigates you or something like that before confession. Is that true?

 

[zippy2006]

Another question. Is it said that the Roman priest investigates you or something like that before confession. Is that true?

Not generally, no. He may ask questions during the confession to learn more, but there isn't usually a pre-confession investigation.

The exception would be a confession that is meant to cover many years or decades, or else one where the person is having trouble examining their conscience. The priest would help them in these cases.

 

[AMM]

Not generally, no. He may ask questions during the confession to learn more, but there isn't usually a pre-confession investigation.

The exception would be a confession that is meant to cover many years or decades, or else one where the person is having trouble examining their conscience. The priest would help them in these cases.

That seems pretty similar to how the Orthodox do it