• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Difference between Eastern and Western Orthodox

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As far as I'm aware it is, but there's a reason why. In the case of confession it's part of the spiritual medicine that the church is offering, and using to heal our broken state. Without confession there's no repentance, and with no repentance how could we hope to ever become more like Him?

That's part of the goal of theosis that All4Christ mentioned above. Our goal is to become more like Him. St Athanasius in "On the Incarnation", said "God became man so that man might become god”.

And I do believe there was confession in the early church. It's mentioned in the Didache which dates to around 70 A.D.

Edit : Also, let me add that I'd recommend taking it slow. Learn about the Orthodox church through the Divine Liturgy as Fr. Matt and others have suggested, also any catechumen classes offered by the parish, and ask the priest questions. Overall understanding the why behind some of the things that we do may help immensely.
P, I know the Didache and can't remember anything about confession. IF IT'S EASY could you tell me the "chapter" or paragraph?

Otherwise, I'll look it up myself.
But I might miss it again....
 
Upvote 0

Phronema

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2016
1,389
1,533
43
Southern PA
✟786,650.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
P, I know the Didache and can't remember anything about confession. IF IT'S EASY could you tell me the "chapter" or paragraph?

Otherwise, I'll look it up myself.
But I might miss it again....

Of course! It's no problem at all :)

It's mentioned both in 4:14, and 14:1. Here they are below :

4:14 -
Thou shalt hate all hypocrisy and everything that is not pleasing to God; thou shalt not abandon the commandments of the Lord, but shalt guard that which thou hast received, neither adding thereto nor taking therefrom; thou shalt confess thy transgressions in the church, and shalt not come unto prayer with an evil conscience. This is the path of life.

14:1 -
But on the Lord’s day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted, for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord. In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles.


The Twelve Apostles. The Didache . Acheron Press. Kindle Edition.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are a core set of dogmas / doctrines and some theologumen (areas that allow for different opinions). That’s one purpose of the catechism - to make sure you can agree or at least accept the core parts before fully committing to it with Chrismation.
Yes. I don't like to make believe that I agree if I don't.
 
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,796
8,174
PA
Visit site
✟1,182,196.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yes. I don't like to make believe that I agree if I don't.
For me, it was important to know which church was the closest to the early church. If I believe that people were inspired by God to select the correct canon of Scripture, then I should look closely at the early teachings before that point. That was key for me. God is not a God of confusion, so that was important to me. I recommend continuing to read the writings of the early church
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
who says you can't be more justified?
You'd have to explain better to me what you mean by justified.

Being justified (as I understand it) means being made righteous with God....being made right with God.

This happens when we turn to God for salvation and for a commitment to him - Protestants call this being born again...which the CC also agrees with BTW.

This is a grace of God and done by HIM alone by our request. Ephesians 2:8

So you can't get any more right with God than being right with God. You either are or you are not.

Sanctification, otoh, is a life-long process which makes us be more like God would want us to be...we SHOULD be becoming better and better as our life goes on although we will still sin at times.
We will not be fully sanctified in this life.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
For me, it was important to know which church was the closest to the early church. If I believe that people were inspired by God to select the correct canon of Scripture, then I should look closely at the early teachings before that point. That was key for me. God is not a God of confusion, so that was important to me. I recommend continuing to read the writings of the early church
I agree with you.
I like the ECFs and by this I mean those before 325AD when things started to change.

I'm told by many that they don't trust men but only the bible. Which is rather interesting since the ECFs are the ones that put the bible together!

I seem to agree with you on a lot of what you post.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Of course! It's no problem at all :)

It's mentioned both in 4:14, and 14:1. Here they are below :

4:14 -
Thou shalt hate all hypocrisy and everything that is not pleasing to God; thou shalt not abandon the commandments of the Lord, but shalt guard that which thou hast received, neither adding thereto nor taking therefrom; thou shalt confess thy transgressions in the church, and shalt not come unto prayer with an evil conscience. This is the path of life.

14:1 -
But on the Lord’s day, after that ye have assembled together, break bread and give thanks, having in addition confessed your sins, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let not any one who hath a quarrel with his companion join with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be polluted, for it is that which is spoken of by the Lord. In every place and time offer unto me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great King, saith the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the Gentiles.


The Twelve Apostles. The Didache . Acheron Press. Kindle Edition.
Thanks!

Confessing of sins IN THE CHURCH would seem to mean as the early church practiced audible confession in the church environment and which became a problem and so was changed to private confession eventually.

Paragraph 14:1 seems to be saying the same...
Neither one really expresses HOW to confess these sins. I've always had the feeling that if it was this important, why didn't at least John speak of it in more clear terms.

However, John 20:21 does seem to be clear, doesn't it?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,328
21,007
Earth
✟1,662,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
You'd have to explain better to me what you mean by justified.

Being justified (as I understand it) means being made righteous with God....being made right with God.

This happens when we turn to God for salvation and for a commitment to him - Protestants call this being born again...which the CC also agrees with BTW.

This is a grace of God and done by HIM alone by our request. Ephesians 2:8

So you can't get any more right with God than being right with God. You either are or you are not.

Sanctification, otoh, is a life-long process which makes us be more like God would want us to be...we SHOULD be becoming better and better as our life goes on although we will still sin at times.
We will not be fully sanctified in this life.

but if God is infinite and outside of time, being made right with Him would be an ongoing process that never ends.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0

Phronema

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2016
1,389
1,533
43
Southern PA
✟786,650.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Thanks!

Confessing of sins IN THE CHURCH would seem to mean as the early church practiced audible confession in the church environment and which became a problem and so was changed to private confession eventually.

Paragraph 14:1 seems to be saying the same...
Neither one really expresses HOW to confess these sins. I've always had the feeling that if it was this important, why didn't at least John speak of it in more clear terms.

However, John 20:21 does seem to be clear, doesn't it?

I'm glad to help :)

Very true in regards to John 20:21-23. I think John 20:23 really cements it.

Also I happened a long this.

Perhaps the most misunderstood sacrament of the Christian Church is confession. How did it originate? What role does a priest play? Is there a special procedure for confession? The Scriptures hold answers to these questions. Concerning our sins, God’s Word gives a marvelous promise: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). The faithful are to bring their sins to God in repentance and receive cleansing and forgiveness.

The early Christian community had a specific practice in this regard. People would stand and confess their sins to God in the presence of the whole congregation! Had not Jesus encouraged His followers to walk in the light together, to confront problems corporately, to “tell it to the church” (Mt 18:17)? Thus, James writes, “Confess your trespasses to one another” (Jam 5:16).

But as time went on and the Church grew in numbers, strangers came to visit and public confession became more difficult. Out of mercy, priests began to witness confessions of sin privately on behalf of the Church. Jesus gave His disciples the authority to forgive sin. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:23; see also Mt 16:19). From the beginning, Christians understood that the grace of ordination endowed the shepherd of the flock with the discernment and compassion to speak the words of remission on behalf of Christ regarding the sins of those who confess and turn from sin. For God has promised to remove sin from us “as far as the east is from the west” (Ps 102:12).

“You did not choose Me,” Jesus told the Twelve, “but I chose you and appointed [ordained] you” (Jn 15:16). To these same disciples He promised, “It is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit” (Mk 13:11). Whom God calls, He equips. Paul writes to Timothy, “Stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands” (2Ti 1:6). It is the grace of the Holy Spirit that enables the priest to serve God and the people.

Thus, the Church has encouraged her faithful: If you know you have committed a specific sin, do not hide it but confess it before coming to the Holy Eucharist. St. Paul wrote, “Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1Co 11:28), and “If we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged” (1Co 11:31).

King David learned a lesson regarding his sin that is recorded for our benefit. For about a year, he had hidden his sins of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband (2Kg 11:1–12:13). Then, confronted by Nathan the prophet, David repented from his heart and confessed his sin in a psalm that is used for general confession to this day (Ps 50). The joy of salvation was restored to him.

People ask, “Can’t I confess to God privately?” Certainly, though there is no clear biblical basis for it. Even general confession occurs in the Church. In His mercy, God provides the sacrament of confession (more properly called the sacrament of repentance) to give us deliverance from sin and from what psychologists call denial. It is easy to pray in isolation yet never come clean. It is far more effective to confess aloud to God before a priest and benefit from his guidance and help.

Thus, we come before the holy icon of Christ, to whom we confess, and are guided by our spiritual father in a cleansing inventory of our lives. When we tell God all, naming our sins and failures, we hear those glorious words of freedom that announce Christ’s promise of forgiveness of all our sins. We resolve to “go and sin no more” (Jn 8:11).



Nelson, Thomas. The Orthodox Study Bible, eBook . Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0

Goodhuman

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2020
567
213
dfgdfsgdf
✟73,992.00
Country
Cambodia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
but if God is infinite and outside of time, being made right with Him would be an ongoing process that never ends.

Our goal in this life is to become born again. We can't do nothing more neither God for us. When we finish this goal, we are made perfect.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,328
21,007
Earth
✟1,662,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Our goal in this life is to become born again. We can't do nothing more neither God for us. When we finish this goal, we are made perfect.

no, our goal is to be Christlike, and to continue that unto eternity. being born again in baptism starts that.
 
Upvote 0

Goodhuman

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2020
567
213
dfgdfsgdf
✟73,992.00
Country
Cambodia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
no, our goal is to be Christlike, and to continue that unto eternity. being born again in baptism starts that.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
If God not change, we will not changed in eternity too. We have only time on earth to be changed, because of our pain.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,328
21,007
Earth
✟1,662,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
If God not change, we will not changed in eternity too. We have only time on earth to be changed, because of our pain.

that's incorrect. while God doesn't change, we do since we are created. going from glory to glory is an eternal change.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
but if God is infinite and outside of time, being made right with Him would be an ongoing process that never ends.
Very interesting.
Am pondering this...
It requires some thought to absorb it.
 
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm glad to help :)

Very true in regards to John 20:21-23. I think John 20:23 really cements it.

Also I happened a long this.

Perhaps the most misunderstood sacrament of the Christian Church is confession. How did it originate? What role does a priest play? Is there a special procedure for confession? The Scriptures hold answers to these questions. Concerning our sins, God’s Word gives a marvelous promise: “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). The faithful are to bring their sins to God in repentance and receive cleansing and forgiveness.

The early Christian community had a specific practice in this regard. People would stand and confess their sins to God in the presence of the whole congregation! Had not Jesus encouraged His followers to walk in the light together, to confront problems corporately, to “tell it to the church” (Mt 18:17)? Thus, James writes, “Confess your trespasses to one another” (Jam 5:16).

But as time went on and the Church grew in numbers, strangers came to visit and public confession became more difficult. Out of mercy, priests began to witness confessions of sin privately on behalf of the Church. Jesus gave His disciples the authority to forgive sin. “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:23; see also Mt 16:19). From the beginning, Christians understood that the grace of ordination endowed the shepherd of the flock with the discernment and compassion to speak the words of remission on behalf of Christ regarding the sins of those who confess and turn from sin. For God has promised to remove sin from us “as far as the east is from the west” (Ps 102:12).

“You did not choose Me,” Jesus told the Twelve, “but I chose you and appointed [ordained] you” (Jn 15:16). To these same disciples He promised, “It is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit” (Mk 13:11). Whom God calls, He equips. Paul writes to Timothy, “Stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands” (2Ti 1:6). It is the grace of the Holy Spirit that enables the priest to serve God and the people.

Thus, the Church has encouraged her faithful: If you know you have committed a specific sin, do not hide it but confess it before coming to the Holy Eucharist. St. Paul wrote, “Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup” (1Co 11:28), and “If we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged” (1Co 11:31).

King David learned a lesson regarding his sin that is recorded for our benefit. For about a year, he had hidden his sins of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband (2Kg 11:1–12:13). Then, confronted by Nathan the prophet, David repented from his heart and confessed his sin in a psalm that is used for general confession to this day (Ps 50). The joy of salvation was restored to him.

People ask, “Can’t I confess to God privately?” Certainly, though there is no clear biblical basis for it. Even general confession occurs in the Church. In His mercy, God provides the sacrament of confession (more properly called the sacrament of repentance) to give us deliverance from sin and from what psychologists call denial. It is easy to pray in isolation yet never come clean. It is far more effective to confess aloud to God before a priest and benefit from his guidance and help.

Thus, we come before the holy icon of Christ, to whom we confess, and are guided by our spiritual father in a cleansing inventory of our lives. When we tell God all, naming our sins and failures, we hear those glorious words of freedom that announce Christ’s promise of forgiveness of all our sins. We resolve to “go and sin no more” (Jn 8:11).



Nelson, Thomas. The Orthodox Study Bible, eBook . Thomas Nelson. Kindle Edition.
I hope I already answered the above.
Can't remember. I was in the ER almost all day yesterday. All Good.

But I did want to say that I used to know an Orthodox missionary and he told me confession is voluntary but that he likes it.

Your post if a very good post.
Very informative and well said.

Thanks!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Phronema
Upvote 0

GodsGrace101

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2018
6,713
2,297
Tuscany
✟255,207.00
Country
Italy
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
been there, myself.
We were discussing justfctn and sanctfctn. and how
God is an eternal being and so justfctn is always happening.
What you said makes sense.
We are constantly being justified
WHILE
we are being sanctified.

Does this sound correct?
 
Upvote 0

Phronema

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Dec 2, 2016
1,389
1,533
43
Southern PA
✟786,650.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I hope I already answered the above.
Can't remember. I was in the ER almost all day yesterday. All Good.

But I did want to say that I used to know an Orthodox missionary and he told me confession is voluntary but that he likes it.

Your post if a very good post.
Very informative and well said.

Thanks!

In regards to being in the ER I hope everything is alright!

Lord have mercy!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,328
21,007
Earth
✟1,662,658.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
We were discussing justfctn and sanctfctn. and how
God is an eternal being and so justfctn is always happening.
What you said makes sense.
We are constantly being justified
WHILE
we are being sanctified.

Does this sound correct?

yep.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace101
Upvote 0