Did you know that there is an ancient book that foretold current events?

[Carey]

Carey,

What is with your parenthetical notes? Why should anyone need that? If you are going to support an intepretation do it with other scripture or keep your statements clear.

Peter said the last days were in his time.


The last days started when Christ ascended so that would cover Peters time too.



So you take the position that the darkness is not a metaphore. So basically you are going to have to stick to this. You have already stated the similair language in Isaiah 13 is not the Babylonian captivity to avoid this problem. Also in terms of the fog of war from that perspective this is possible. Even so perspective is important.

Isaiah 13

So does anyone else think Isaiah 13 is in the future and not about the Babylonain captivity? Hyenas and jackals will need to come from the zoo.

They could come from the zoo but they are probably a metaphor.


Also in regard to literal interpretations.


Will their faces be on fire?

Yes their faces will be on firefrom weapons of war.



Why ignore the account in Josephus?

- Book 6 chapter 5 section 3 Wars of the Jews. Josephus

Now if you insist that there is only one second coming I would like to see that proof. There are certainly statements that Jesus will come again in several places in several different contexts particularly to the seven churches and certainly he came to Paul.



1 Corinthians 15 : 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet."[c] Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Revelations 20 :
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

However again context is important. Did the nations see something?

John 12
Was the "world" used a metaphore here or were they talking about hunter gatherers in the Americas as well? Rome was many nations and is therfore why it is know as an empire.

Yes there have been empires throughout history what is your point??

 

[gwynedd1]

Yes there have been empires throughout history what is your point??

Carey,

My point was that nations were in effect Rome and many nations did see the events that occurred at that time.

 

[Carey]

Carey,

My point was that nations were in effect Rome and many nations did see the events that occurred at that time.

I still don't get what your trying to say when it comes to how it applies to this thread.

 

[gwynedd1]

I still don't get what your trying to say when it comes to how it applies to this thread.

Hello Carey,

My point is that it is a simplistic and wrong hermeneutic to attempt and absolute requirement and base the rest on that. For example:

Revelation 1

To him who loves us and freed* us from our sins by his blood, 6and made* us to be a kingdom, priests serving* his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7Look! He is coming with the clouds;
every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail.
So it is to be. Amen.

You are basing you view on a literal interpretation only. One can decide every eye must see him in a given context. Perhaps it is true but there needs to be good integration with the rest of scripture. However it is not possible to take scripture and assume all means every last one in every case. Rome was in a casual poetic sense the entire world. This is exactly how Paul refers to it.


Romans 1

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world. 9For God, whom I serve with my spirit by announcing the gospel* of his Son, is my witness that without ceasing I remember you always in my prayers, 10asking that by God’s will I may somehow at last succeed in coming to you.

So now is this true? Was Jesus really proclaimed throughout the world?


I have seen Christian Zionist interpretations of this scripture to mean a rebirth of Israel, in other other words rather than a literal interpretation it is considered a metaphor in this case.


Ezekiel 37

The hand of the Lord came upon me, and he brought me out by the spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2He led me all round them; there were very many lying in the valley, and they were very dry. 3He said to me, ‘Mortal, can these bones live?’ I answered, ‘O Lord God, you know.’ 4Then he said to me, ‘Prophesy to these bones, and say to them: O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5Thus says the Lord God to these bones: I will cause breath* to enter you, and you shall live. 6I will lay sinews on you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath* in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.’

Now the irony is this may rightly be a more literal description of the resurrection. So to discount another view by saying it has not fulfilled your absolute requirement of "exhibit A" is rather lacking.

Your quote:

The sun and moon will be darkened in the future as Jesus also said in Matthew 24 but there are many other events that must come to pass because right after the sun and moon are darkened we will see him returning in the clouds.

And we know we have not seen him returning in the clouds and all the nations mourn because of this supernatural event.

We also know Paul was not literally correct with the entire world. We also know the same thing was said in judgment of Babylon with perhaps only you who suggests ancient Babylon was not the subject and indeed you will find few to none that agree with this.
One thing that is beyond dispute is that literal only interpretations of every scripture will find the Bible to be a conflicted mess. However the Bible was not written without context and thus in contrast was not written like the book of Proverbs where one verse may stand on its own.

 

[MandM]

Interesting discussion, but could we bring this back around to the original point of the thread somehow?

 

[gwynedd1]

Interesting discussion, but could we bring this back around to the original point of the thread somehow?

MandM,

I am not entirely sure how disputing that the references you cite as having been applied to current events is not the subject? The detail , for example, of what is meant by nations or world is rather important. There are several references that are clear that the world is not literal.

Let looks at this

Matthew 24

As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2Then he asked them, ‘You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.’ Signs of the End of the Age

3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?’

Jesus makes clear when "this will be". The stones thrown down were in 70 AD and he answered in the context of the second temple.

This is called the end of the age.


Acts 2

14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them: ‘Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. 15Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning. 16No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
17“In the last days it will be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,

Hebrews 9

25Nor was it to offer himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place year after year with blood that is not his own; 26for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement,

That is 3 cross references.

the end of what age?

This age. 490 years was the time decreed for Daniels people. This was the rebuilding of the city not the temple. The rebuilding of the city was the 20th year of Artaxerxes. That is generally believed to be 445 BC. Considering that Jewish years are 360 days subtract 7 years and then 69 weeks is when Christ was sacrificed.

So here is a the fourth
Daniel 9

24 ‘Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.* 25Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing, and the troops of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Its* end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place* shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.’

Now in general one should be able to cross reference their claims lest it is misinterpreted. There is no reference to the 70 weeks to be suspended. There is no cross reference about the supposed peace treaty. I find plenty for the new covenant as that is what Christ came to accomplish. Daniel 9 was about Jesus. Who else accomplished what is in bold in chapter 9?

Christ confirmed a covenant for one week. 1/2 was before the cross and the other half was after the cross until God's word spread to the gentiles after Stephen. Jesus was the one that ended the sacrificial system. There is a Talmud cross reference to show that further temple sacrifices were rejected as well as being stated in Hebrews.



Hebrews 8

3In speaking of ‘a new covenant’, he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

Here is an interesting account of the temple disturbances after Christ abolished the old sacrificial system. It started in 30 AD for 40 years or within a generation.

http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/scapegoat.htm


If this is not correct then scripture with good supporting cross references should follow. Then we can decide what applies to when.