Did the Jews kill Christ?

[A_Thinker]

Matthew 27:25
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Surely you don't think this is referring to the whole of Israel. It refers to all of that crowd that the Jewish leaders paid to do their bidding ...

 

[JackRT]

Here's Christian Forums own Definition:

Futurism: Futurism is the eschatological viewpoint that interprets portions of the Book of Revelation, the Book of Daniel, and other prophecies, as future events in a literal, physical, apocalyptic, and global context.

• Pre-tribulation: The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.
• Mid-tribulation: The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of the tribulation period, or during Daniel's 70th week. The tribulation is typically divided into two periods of 3.5 years each. Mid-tribulationists hold that the saints will go through the first period (Beginning of Travail, which is not "the tribulation"), but will be raptured into Heaven before the severe outpouring of God's wrath in the second half of the tribulation.
• Post-tribulation: The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ. The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation even though the church will be spared the wrath of God.
• Pre-wrath Tribulation: The pre-wrath tribulation position states that Christians will be raptured sometime during the tribulation that occurs in the second half of the 70th week of Daniel, and before the day of the Lord's wrath. The pre-wrath position emphasizes the biblical distinction between tribulation (which Christians have been promised) and the wrath of God (which Christians have been promised deliverance/salvation from).

Thank you for the definition and exposition in terms of rapture/tribulation speculation. However, I fail to see how this applies to the long suffering of the Jewish people.

 

[Not David]

This puts a spin on this thread which has always sparked my curiosity so might as well as we've exhausted the original topic i think.

I can't see how Jews are a race for if so, which race, Arabs?

Also, just last week I had spoken to a guy who was born in israel who had said he is Jewish but not religious. If Judaism is a religion and he is not religious then how can he claim to be Jewish, does that mean if you are born in Israel that makes you Jewish?

The Jews are Semitic but because they dispersed around the world, they mix with other people. Arabs also mixed with other people but since most of that happened in the Middle East, there wasn't a clear difference.

 

[curious mike]

Hmnn, I am not clear on what ethnicity Semites are, is it Arab, caucasian????

 

[parousia70]

Hmnn, I am not clear on what ethnicity Semites are, is it Arab, caucasian????

From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

"In the racialist classifications of Carleton S. Coon, the Semitic peoples were considered to be members of the Caucasian race"

 

[parousia70]

Surely you don't think this is referring to the whole of Israel. It refers to all of that crowd that the Jewish leaders paid to do their bidding ...

Who do you think Jesus was referring to here?

Luke 19:43-45
43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 23:28
But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

 

[parousia70]

Thank you for the definition and exposition in terms of rapture/tribulation speculation. However, I fail to see how this applies to the long suffering of the Jewish people.

Simple.
Consistent futurism logically fosters "Jew"-hatred.
Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.

 

[curious mike]

"In the racialist classifications of Carleton S. Coon, the Semitic peoples were considered to be members of the Caucasian race"

Well this certainly is interesting because Abraham is from somewhere near Turkey, right? I can't see that would make him caucasian?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Who Killed Jesus??

The OPTIONS / "usual suspects" :

1. The TRI-UNE GOD: who sent Jesus the God-Man as the Divine Messiah with the mission to die FOR sins and sinners...to reconcile Man to God. Did Jesus die for YOU?

2. Jesus the God-Man: who was obedient to the will of the God the Father. He could have saved Himself. LORD!?!

3. Jesus the Carpenter and Rabbi: the nice man who was crazy enough to die for His principles. Liar? Lunatic?

4. The Jewish LEADERSHIP in POWER: who plotted, conspired against, unjustly "tried" Him, and sentenced Him to death for blasphemy.

5. Pontius Pilate: who had the only authority for capital punishment after "trials".
He had Him flogged, found Him innocent, turned Him over to "mob justice, and ordered the crucifixion.

6. The unbelievng mobs: who decided to and screamed : "Crucify Him"...and released Barabas.

7. The skilled Roman soldiers: who obeyed orders to crucify Him...How many that day...month...year?

8. All who those rejected Him, and did not accept Him for who He was...the "King of the Jews" was not protected.

9. Those curious onlookers who watched Him bleed to death without intervening.

10. All of sinning mankind including ME!

11. Other? A combination of above?

 

[JackRT]

Simple.
Consistent futurism logically fosters "Jew"-hatred.
Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism.

In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59).

After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15). There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?

Probably millions.

Thank you again. A most interesting point of view.

 

[A_Thinker]

Who do you think Jesus was referring to here?

Luke 19:43-45
43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

Luke 23:28
But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

He was referring to some Jews, though not all Jews, because 10-15 million Jews survive today.

I believe that Jesus was speaking of the AD 70 devastation of Jerusalem ...

 

[Petros2015]

Guys, I was just looking at a TV show where a guest has created a documentary on the Holocaust and one speaker in the documentary said "the Jews did not kill Christ".

my thinking is the Romans physically killed Christ but it was the Jews who forced it so they were responsible and accountable, your thoughts on this please?

You are missing the point.

Christ was the son of GOD. There's no difference between the soul-stuff of a Jew, a Roman or me or you.

The Humans killed Christ.

 

[curious mike]

Well this certainly is interesting because Abraham is from somewhere near Turkey, right? I can't see that would make him caucasian?

Can anyone shed any light on this please and also maybe comment on whether or not Abraham was the "first" Jew since he was the Father of the Jews?

 

[A_Thinker]

Can anyone shed any light on this please and also maybe comment on whether or not Abraham was the "first" Jew since he was the Father of the Jews?

I would say that Abraham was the father of many nations, ... including the Jews.

Abraham is the father of the Arabs also, ... through Ishmael ... and the grandfather of the Edomites, ... through Esau.

 

[discipler7]

Surely you don't think this is referring to the whole of Israel. It refers to all of that crowd that the Jewish leaders paid to do their bidding ...

ROMANS.10:21 = Israel Rejects the Gospel
21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

EXODUS.20:5 = For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[curious mike]

So would be accurate to say he was Arab [not caucasian] and also he was the very first Jew?

 

[A_Thinker]

EXODUS.20:5 = For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

I believe that God recalibrated that in His later word shared by the prophet Ezekiel ...

Ezekiel 18:1 - 4

The word of the Lord came to me: “What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’?

As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel.

Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

 

[A_Thinker]

EXODUS.20:5 = For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

... and certainly per Jeremiah's prophecy of the New Covenant ...

Jeremiah 31:29 - 34

In those days they shall no longer say: “‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.’

But everyone shall die for his own sin. Each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[A_Thinker]

So would be accurate to say he was Arab [not caucasian] and also he was the very first Jew?

Abraham was part of the Semetic heritage (i.e. of Noah's son Shem) of humanity. It is thought that Ur, where he hailed from, ... was located in present day Iraq. So he was definitely a typical Middle Easterner.

Caucasians are thought to be descended from Noah's son Japeth.

 

[curious mike]

Hmnn, i guess this would further complicate things for me because since the world was re-populated from Noah's kids, why would the descendants of brothers be Arab and Caucasian?