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Did the Baptist get it right?

Lazarus Short

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That would be here - http://www.christianforums.com/forums/controversial-christian-theology.130/

Whether or not you picked your notions up here at CF or somewhere else in your life I cannot say, of course. However, you ought to be pleased that you are hardly the first person to come up with this conclusion nor, might I add, the last.

The Democratic Principle is so ingrained in most people that they assume a minority opinion is automatically wrong. I have the advantage of having been an atheist for some years, so when God began to call to me, I had no presuppositions. Further, I have been through so many cycles of learning and unlearning what I had learned, that I can now see through most of the many deceptions around me. I am also able to speak kindly to those who oppose me, and trust me when I say that www forums like this one are full of self-appointed gatekeepers.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Democratic Principle is so ingrained in most people that they assume a minority opinion is automatically wrong. I have the advantage of having been an atheist for some years, so when God began to call to me, I had no presuppositions. Further, I have been through so many cycles of learning and unlearning what I had learned, that I can now see through most of the many deceptions around me. I am also able to speak kindly to those who oppose me, and trust me when I say that www forums like this one are full of self-appointed gatekeepers.

Not to worry. I have learned that all of life is full of self-appointed gatkeepers.
 
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Razare

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Here are the fundamental beliefs of the Baptist according to the Baptist convention. Are there any out there that refute these statements of belief and why? This is a theological question and not an attempt at proselytizing anyone. PS: These are in line with my own personal beliefs as well.

Most of the pentecoastals I listen to, a lot used to be baptists.

When you come from baptist to pentecoastal, there's very little change, just additional revelation of the word.

So they "got it right" but there is more to learn out of the correct doctrines they have.

Many baptists (not all) screw up 1 Corinthians 12 to some degree. I heard a well known baptist TV preacher, getting those verses wrong. But given the mysteries of knowledge in scripture, it is not terrible that they would be wrong on one chapter.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Most of the pentecoastals I listen to, a lot used to be baptists.

When you come from baptist to pentecoastal, there's very little change, just additional revelation of the word.

So they "got it right" but there is more to learn out of the correct doctrines they have.

Many baptists (not all) screw up 1 Corinthians 12 to some degree. I heard a well known baptist TV preacher, getting those verses wrong. But given the mysteries of knowledge in scripture, it is not terrible that they would be wrong on one chapter.

OTOH, there are plenty of Pentecostals who differ markedly from each other on their understanding of I Corinthians 12. I have also known a number of Pentecostals who have meandered from Pentecostalism into other branches of Christianity. I have a cousin who married a man who, after marriage, got the spirit and entered seminary where he remained until the end of his life. After supporting the family for a number of years my cousin decided to "lose her salvation" (her words, not mine) and engage in a torrid affair with another seminarian. A few years after her divorce she "got back her salvation" and married another man who also got the spirit and entered another pentecostal seminary. After a brief ministry in the Foursquare Gospel denomination they entered the service of an Episcopal cathedral where they taught the members to speak in tongues (her words, not mine). That did not last long, as you can imagine and then they decided to form a liturgical pentecostal house church. That also did not last long. I am not sure where she is at now in her spiritual journey.
 
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BABerean2

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The Lord's Day
The first day of the week is the Lord's Day. It is a Christian institution for regular observance. It commemorates the resurrection of Christ from the dead and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, and by refraining from worldly amusements, and resting from secular employment's, work of necessity and mercy only being excepted. Ex. 20:8-11; Matt. 12:1-12; 28:1 ff.; Mark 2:27-28; 16:1- 7; Luke 24:1-3, 33-36; John 4:21-24; 20:1, 19-28; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Col. 2:16; 3:16; Rev. 1:10

There is nothing wrong with worship on the Lord's Day, since we find the early Church doing so in Acts 20:7.
However, Col. 2:16 also says we are to judge no believer in Sabbath observance.


Those believers indwelled with the Holy Spirit have the Lord of the Sabbath inside of them every day of the week.
Therefore, any day of the week is suitable as a day of worship.
My wife and I meet with our church body on Sunday and our Home Bible study will meet at our house tomorrow.
Both days are days of worship, and not a Sabbath.


The section above which speaks of worldly amusements, resting from secular employment, etc. is sounding a lot like an attempt to put us under the yoke of the Sinai covenant 4th commandment, which is labeled as a yoke in Acts chapter 15 and Paul calls the Sinai covenant of bondage, in Galatians chapter 4.

Based on Hebrews 8:13, the New Covenant of Christ has made the Old Sinai covenant "obsolete".

We find in Galatians chapter 3 that the Sinai covenant was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham, because of transgressions "until" the Seed could come to whom the Promise was made.
Based on Galatians 3:16, that Seed was Christ, and in verse 29 we find that we inherit the promise through Christ.


And you should also know that I consider myself an Anabaptist.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Here are the fundamental beliefs of the Baptist according to the Baptist convention.
What sort of 'Baptist'? At last count, there were more than thirty variants of "Baptist" and no one authority (excluding God Himself) speaks for all of them at once. (Included is the Westboro [Fred Phelps] bunch, which prove there is no 'copyright' on what a group calls itself.)

Just for the record, yes I do recognize the document.
 
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Albion

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I'm not a Baptist, but I grow weary of having one family and a handful of their friends who barely constitute a single congregation (Westboro) that's not affiliated with any of the leading Baptist conventions constantly being made into the definition of what it is to be a Baptist! :sorry:
 
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Archie the Preacher

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I'm not a Baptist, but I grow weary of having one family and a handful of their friends who barely constitute a single congregation (Westboro) that's not affiliated with any of the leading Baptist conventions constantly being made into the definition of what it is to be a Baptist! :sorry:
Indeed!

I was raised in a Southern Baptist congregation (more than one on the life journey). Just for the record, the So Baps were more concerned with state's rights than slavery, AND the slavery discussion has been over since the Civil War ended. I'm a bit weary of being confused with the Westboro bunch as well. Of course, identifying as a Christian leads to accusations ranging from starting the Crusades to hating women. But, like Jesus said in John 15:18 ...
 
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DeaconDean

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Actually that would be anyone who rejected the presence of the Lord Himself in his supper. Denominational lines didn't exist back then, it was us who created them through disagreements like this one. There are protestants, Anglicans and Lutherans in particular who had at least somewhat of the right idea originally

Here is where you are wrong.

We know for a fact, that while not called "denominations" there were two distinct groups in the first century.

There was a group of Jewish-Christians who held to part of the Law.

And a Gentile group who were not obliged to adhere but to abstain from blood. (cf. Acts 15)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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BABerean2

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Here is where you are wrong.

We know for a fact, that while not called "denominations" there were two distinct groups in the first century.

There was a group of Jewish-Christians who held to part of the Law.

And a Gentile group who were not obliged to adhere but to abstain from blood. (cf. Acts 15)

God Bless

Till all are one.

There is still confusion today between the Sinai covenant and the New Covenant.

In Galatians chapter 4 Paul called the Sinai covenant a covenant of bondage and he said the inheritance does not come through the Sinai covenant.

In Acts 15 Peter called it a "yoke" they had not been able to bear.

In Galatians 5 Paul also calls it a "yoke".

The Book of Hebrews is about the struggle of the Hebrew believers who keep trying to go back to the Mosaic Law.

We are under the Law of Christ.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Sabbath keeping is still confused today.

There is no commandment for Christians to keep a Sabbath day after the day of Pentecost.

The early Church did meet on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7, but they did not call it a Sabbath.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath has a name. However, it is not Saturday or Sunday. It is Christ.

The Sabbath day was a shadow. Christ is the body.

If Christ is inside of you, every day is the Sabbath.

.
 
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DeaconDean

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There is still confusion today between the Sinai covenant and the New Covenant.

In Galatians chapter 4 Paul called the Sinai covenant a covenant of bondage and he said the inheritance does not come through the Sinai covenant.

In Acts 15 Peter called it a "yoke" they had not been able to bear.

In Galatians 5 Paul also calls it a "yoke".

The Book of Hebrews is about the struggle of the Hebrew believers who keep trying to go back to the Mosaic Law.

We are under the Law of Christ.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Sabbath keeping is still confused today.

There is no commandment for Christians to keep a Sabbath day after the day of Pentecost.

The early Church did meet on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7, but they did not call it a Sabbath.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath has a name. However, it is not Saturday or Sunday. It is Christ.

The Sabbath day was a shadow. Christ is the body.

If Christ is inside of you, every day is the Sabbath.

.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what did that have to do with my post?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Christians of all races are not under the Mosaic law.

.


That is true.

But my point was/is, that in the first century, at the time of the First Apostolic Council, there were to groups of "Christians".

One group of Jewish Christians that adhered to at least part of the "Torah":

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. " -Acts 15: 5-11 (KJV)

Here is a group of Jewish Christians who apparently observed at least part of the "Torah".

And here is James' answer to the Gentile Christians:

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." -Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)

Only few things did James say to the Gentiles.

There were, for lack of a better word, during the first century, at the First Apostolic Council, two "denominations". One consisting of Jewish Christians, and one consisting of Gentile Christians.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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To further clarify:

"III. The Conflict Concerning the Law

b. The Primitive Community


The conflict concerning the Law and its relevance to Christians then and now. There is no clear cut definitive picture of just what the understanding of the Law was in the primitive community. But it is a certainty that they did in fact keep the Law, but as to the extent of the keeping of the Law it is not certain from the account in Acts because no distinctive can be discerned in this record. So what we can do, however, is to look at what records we do have concerning the conflict which are found in the book of Galatians and in Acts 15.

The question of the Law first became an issue when the Apostles began their missionary journeys. When they moved out to the Gentile world, more specifically the Gentile nations, there was so much conflict that the first Apostolic Council is recorded. With regards to this meeting, and the decision they came to, we can work best work out what the fundamental understanding of the Law was in the primitive community.

A problem that had existed from the Day of Pentecost was how to integrate Gentile believers into the church. Apparently, Paul taught his Gentile converts that they did not need to submit to the Law in order to be members in good standing, a point which not all agreed on. Pauls first missionary journey took him from Jerusalem to Antioch to Galatia and back to Jerusalem which led to the first Apostolic Council meeting. AS in Pauls day, there were a group of people who are commonly called legalists. Of whom believed that not only was a belief in God required, but also a strict observance to the Law of Moses was required.

According to Gal. 2, the data relevant to the council are as follows: first, agreement between Pauls gospel and that preached by the primitive community is confirmed and not just established. Gal. 2:2: aneqemhn autoiV to euaggelion o khrussw en toiV eqnesin (I put before them the gospel which I proclaim in the nations) Vs.6: emoi oi dokounteV ouden prosaneqento (to me, for those conferred nothing) Note in the KJV, the translators added the word important; thus the italics, to emphasize Paul was referring to the Apostolic council.

The second point is equally certain, namely, that practical questions over and above the unanimity of principle was not so fully cleared up as to make impossible the dispute at Antioch as Paul describes it in Galatians 2. To understand this passage it should be noted that neither directly nor indirectly does Paul have any word of censure from James. The concrete question is whether and how far those born Jew may live together in fellowship with Gentile Christians who do not keep the Law. In particular, can they have fellowship with them at table and in the Lords Supper? For if they do, they necessarily surrender essential parts of the strict observance of the Law. The measure of clarity reached thus far was simply that purely Gentile Christian churches were free from the Law with the consent of the primitive community, and purely Jewish Christian churches should keep the Law with the consent of Paul.

The findings of the Apostolic Council, then, are that the Law is not to be kept as though one could be righteous by its observance, that faith in Jesus brings salvation to both Jew and Gentile alike, and that the Law is still binding on Jews. On this basis, it seems that the separation of Gentile and Jewish evangelization (Gal. 2:7) had to be accepted by both Paul and the primitive as necessary and appropriate.

c. But this raises the question of why Jewish Christians were obliged to keep the Law. The main reason is concern for the possibility of the Jewish mission. The preaching of Jesus as the Christ of scripture could not be believed by Jews if His followers left the Law of God. That Paul could agree with this view is shown beyond any question in 1 Cor. 9:20. He neither demands nor makes any demonstration of his freedom from the Law which might consist in transgression of the Law.

d. From the basic and practical decision of the primitive community in these matters we may work out its understanding of the Law during the preceding period. The actual commitment to the Law was not monism in the sense that fulfillment of the Law regarded as a presupposition of belonging to the Messianic kingdom. On the contrary, it regarded observance of the Law as the obedience concretely required of it as this people - an obedience which it had also to render for loves sake in the service of the Gospel. What constituted the community and separated it from others, however, was not a specific understanding of the Law but faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ. Historically speaking, it is probable that the Synoptic accounts of Jesus attitude to the Law are correct and that fundamentally the primitive community took its attitude to the Law from Jesus Himself.

e. Further developments in the primitive community is also to be understood in light of the conflicts, motives, and decisions brought to light in the first Apostolic Council and the events relating to it. The radical party, traditionally called the Judaizers, insisted that in spite of the councils decision, circumcision and the Law must be laid on Gentile Christians, since otherwise they could not enjoy salvation or belong to the community of Christ. They evidently propagated this view with zeal, especially in the Pauline churches, though it is open to question whether the situation presupposed in Rome can be explained by Judaising propaganda.

f. Distinct from the position of the Judaizers is that of James, Peter, and the community controlled by them, who seem to have kept essentially to the lines laid down by the Apostolic Council. This certainly corresponds to the depiction of James in Acts 21:148, and it is confirmed by the account of his death in Josephus. [*] In regards to Peter, it is best to assume that he returned to the position of the Apostolic Council and James after accepting the view of Paul for a period in Antioch. Certainly the attempt to make Peter a champion of the Judaizers lacks enough exegetical support in the available sources and it suffers from intrinsic improbability.

As concerning the understanding of the Law in normative circles of primitive Christianity, it may thus be said that they regarded the Law as the obedience to be rendered by Jewish Christians. They were also conscious of being under this obligation for the sake of winning the Jewish world for the Gospel. They did not believe that by achieving this obedience man could attain to righteousness before God. They were prepared to extend brotherly fellowship to Gentile Christians even though the latter did not keep the Law. In mixed congregations, Gentile Christians were obliged to observe such points as would make fellowship of Jewish Christians with them defensible in the eyes of the Jewish world.


[*]
Josephus, Ant., 20, 200"

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffery W. Bromiley, Translator, Vol. V, "nomos", P. 1068-69 (?), Copyright 1965, Hendrickson Publishing Co.

The primary reason for the First Apostolic Council meeting was because the Jewish Christians wanted Gentile Christians to submit to their part of the "Law".

There were, for all intents and purposes, two "denominations" in the first century.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Archie the Preacher

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If I may re-phrase your concept of two denominations, Deacon; the two denominations were 'works' and 'faith'. Those who followed Jesus with Jewish undertones were heavily colored by their Torah obligations and felt - at least subconsciously - they had to earn favor with God in some fashion.

The more or less Gentile followers of Jesus depended more on faith in Jesus than in obedience to Torah.

And probably both groups took their 'stance' a bit too seriously. The two groups became the First Century versions of 'puritans' and 'libertines' at least around the edges. And, like all factions, both caricatured the other position as 'extreme'.

Where have I heard this before?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I've been to many, many Baptist churches, and in my experience, there is a paranoia about anything that might get within 100' of even the appearance of something Catholic.
Not paranoia,(as /from Baptist understanding of Scripture), I think they think
rather better safe than sorry.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.
Subject to testing, subject to Jesus Word/ determination/ revelation.
This church is an autonomous body, operating through democratic processes under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In such a congregation members are equally responsible.
Subject to testing of Scripture and subjection (willing obedience) to Jesus Himself.
(not much 'democratic process' works towards Yhwh's Glory, in Scripture or in usa)
 
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Archie the Preacher

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Not paranoia,(as /from Baptist understanding of Scripture), I think they think rather better safe than sorry.
Being raised Southern Baptist and still essentially agreeing with most Theology and doctrine thereof, I have never been overwhelmed with the reluctance of dealing with members of the RCC. I do know the opulence - relatively viewed, of course - and the various statuary is very alien to SoBaps and to some extent frightening.

(I confess I am scared of some other denominations. They shall remain nameless to protect the guilty.)

My experience is the most ardent 'anti-Catholics' are those of two groups: Those who were former RCC members, and those who were never exposed to anything outside the SoBap group.

To be fair, I've met some Roman Catholics who were once Southern Baptists and absolutely hated the SoBaps. The only motive I could ever detect was some great - to them - trauma they received as a young person in the SoBap denomination. I presume a similar bias on the part of the former RCC members.
 
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BABerean2

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That is true.

But my point was/is, that in the first century, at the time of the First Apostolic Council, there were to groups of "Christians".

One group of Jewish Christians that adhered to at least part of the "Torah":

"But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. " -Acts 15: 5-11 (KJV)

Here is a group of Jewish Christians who apparently observed at least part of the "Torah".

And here is James' answer to the Gentile Christians:

"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." -Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)

Only few things did James say to the Gentiles.

There were, for lack of a better word, during the first century, at the First Apostolic Council, two "denominations". One consisting of Jewish Christians, and one consisting of Gentile Christians.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I never meant to be offensive.

However, in the last few years I have come to understand the struggle between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant in the text.

That struggle continues to this day.

There are denominations that claim we must observe the Sinai Sabbath, even though most claim it was moved to the first day of the week. Paul says otherwise in Col. 2:16-17.
The early Church did meet on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7, but they never called it a Sabbath.


Many today ignore the comparison of the Sinai covenant to bondage in Galatians chapter 4.

The Book of Hebrews is about those Israelite believers who could not let go of the Sinai covenant.

The Book of Galatians is about Israelite believers who tried to put Gentile believers under the Sinai covenant.

Today we have those of SDA and the modern Hebrew Roots movement, who continue to agree with the Judaisers.

The New Covenant has mainly been buried under the traditions of both Reformed Covenant Theology and modern Dispensational Theology. They both have some things right and some things wrong.

The Old Covenant and the New Covenant
 
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