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Typo? Did you mean 28, because 23 is about Judah and Israel as two sisters playing the harlot.
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Typo? Did you mean 28, because 23 is about Judah and Israel as two sisters playing the harlot.Linking that with Ezekiel 23 which is part of a prophetic book,
Senor moment! I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning and hit the wall!Typo? Did you mean 28, because 23 is about Judah and Israel as two sisters playing the harlot.
I would agree that he understood it fully by the Spirit. Whether he knew it word for word in his mind, the Bible does not say.
I starting to lose the point here. The topical question of the OP is, "Did Satan sin before or after creation week?"
Yes. What is not taken into account is that God, the angels, and Lucifer existed in eternity long before the creation when measurement of time began. So we don't know exactly when Lucifer's rebellion happened in eternity past, because eternity past was a very long time and the rebellion could have happened at any time during that period, long before the creation of the universe was even a thought in God's mind.Seems to me as my original post . ... if it don't seem that way to you so be it.
Lucifer sinned in heaven, cast to the earth after the Lord was finished creating everything ... and it was good ... sin entered into the earth after Adam and Eve sinned. God gave Adam dominion over a perfect earth. Did that happen 1 second after creation or how long who knows ... but seems to me was after creation.
Yes, I think you stand with the majority in this opinion.Seems to me as my original post . ... if it don't seem that way to you so be it.
Lucifer sinned in heaven, cast to the earth after the Lord was finished creating everything ... and it was good ... sin entered into the earth after Adam and Eve sinned. God gave Adam dominion over a perfect earth. Did that happen 1 second after creation or how long who knows ... but seems to me was after creation.
Yes. What is not taken into account is that God, the angels, and Lucifer existed in eternity long before the creation when measurement of time began. So we don't know exactly when Lucifer's rebellion happened in eternity past, because eternity past was a very long time and the rebellion could have happened at any time during that period, long before the creation of the universe was even a thought in God's mind.
I think you may have read in more than what I actually meant. Lucifer and the angels were created beings, but they were created before the universe was created. I never said that Lucifer and the angels were eternal beings. I naturally assumed that you would already know that without me having to say it. Apparently not.We've already talked a little about the meaning of eternity, and I must state why I find your usage troubling. Please understand, I am not saying this about you, but of the LDS.
In their theology, all of us are eternal spirits alive in eternal heaven. At birth our eternal spirits enter bodies so we can live in the physical creation. If you are good Mormon, then after you die, you will have many wives to populate a planet that you become the god on.
There god, Elohim, is just another eternal spirit that left eternal heaven and populated Earth. Adam, Elohim's first man fell into sin and Jesus and Lucifer (who are brother eternal spirits) come up with 2 different plans of salvation. Jesus's plan was accepted, so Mormons have to believe in Jesus therefore consider themselves Christians, too.
This Jesus, (like the Watchertower Jesus who they believe to be Michael the arch angel) is a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible who is Yahweh Shua, I AM Salvation.
This is why I believe there is a difference between eternity and everlasting. Eternity means no beginning nor end. Everlasting means a beginning but no end. It is the eternal nature of God that prevents Him from being able to sin.
A systematic theology book I read parts of years ago used the analogy of parallel lines to describe eternity. Parallel lines, but definition extend in both directions without end and never cross. If those lines could cross anywhere, then they would not be parallel lines.
It is precisely because God has no beginning nor end that it is impossible for him to sin. Because he is always holy and can never be unholy.
Do you see the problem? If we were also eternal spirits, as the Mormons believe, then it would also be impossible for us to sin, too. There could be no fall. But a segment of a line has a beginning and an end. Therefore it can change.
Likewise with Lucifer and the angels. If they are eternal spirits then it would be impossible for them to sin, too.
I may have errors in my logic, and if you see them, please point them out.
they were created before the universe was created
Your assumption of an eternal heaven seems to be based in assumption of God taking up space and needing space for him to live in. But, frankly, God is a Spirit, and none of us really know what that means.because there is no beginning nor end to eternity.
I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.
1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.
Note highlighted sections.
Ezekiel 28:
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”
Many believe that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 the revolt of Satan took place. They claim that God did not originally create the earth "without form and void.
This "without form and void" was the result of the war that took place.
I have never found proof of this but it could very well be true.
Huh?Yes, but how long before or after Adam and Eve sinned? Did he sin with Adam and Eve, then run back to heaven, and then got kicked out?
If the Garden of Eden was created for Lucifer and was in heaven, then brought to earth, was it taken from Lucifer because he sinned first?
I wouldn’t believe or start repeating things that aren’t in the Bible.Many believe that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 the revolt of Satan took place. They claim that God did not originally create the earth "without form and void.
This "without form and void" was the result of the war that took place.
I have never found proof of this but it could very well be true.
Huh?
Where does it say the garden was created for Lucifer?
Also, if Lucifer hadn’t been cast out of heaven yet, how did he get down on earth to be the serpent? He would be in heaven.
I think you are way off with this. I wouldn’t add speculation to the Bible. That is very bad theology
Yes.I'm asking a question. Did you even bother to read #1, the OP?
Yes.
But angels were created before Genesis happened.
Angels are not part of creation in the Bible.
Why do you think he or Lucifer had to have sinned in the Garden?I agree. But the Garden of Eden was created after Creation week. Ezekiel seems to have Lucifer in the Garden of Eden before he sinned. So when did he sin? Was it at the same time he made Eve sin? The curse God gave was to all three.
Why do you think he or Lucifer had to have sinned in the Garden?
An angel is not a human.
Well it says in the Bible that 1/3 of the angels in heaven rebelled with Satan.You don't think angels can sin?
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