Did Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

[Mark Quayle]

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

P1=9.9 vs P2=0.1

I have yet to hear a valid reason why it could not have been Samuel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

duplicate

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I looked into the King James Version and found to my surprise that "familiar spirits" is used several times in the text, quite unlike the NASB, which I relied on earlier. Here is the KJV in I Samuel 28. I will respond to these tomorrow.

I SAMUEL 28 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass in those days, that the Philistines gathered their armies together for warfare, to fight with Israel. And Achish said unto David, Know thou assuredly, that thou shalt go out with me to battle, thou and thy men.

2 And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever.

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had FAMILIAR SPIRITS, and the wizards, out of the land.

4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a FAMILIAR SPIRIT, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a FAMILIAR SPIRIT at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the FAMILIAR SPIRIT, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have FAMILIAR SPIRITS, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I will deal with this tomorrow. Right now, I need to look into what Hebrew called a familiar spirit.

I Samuel 28 continues:

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

21 And the woman came unto Saul, and saw that he was sore troubled, and said unto him, Behold, thine handmaid hath obeyed thy voice, and I have put my life in my hand, and have hearkened unto thy words which thou spakest unto me.

22 Now therefore, I pray thee, hearken thou also unto the voice of thine handmaid, and let me set a morsel of bread before thee; and eat, that thou mayest have strength, when thou goest on thy way.

23 But he refused, and said, I will not eat. But his servants, together with the woman, compelled him; and he hearkened unto their voice. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed.

24 And the woman had a fat calf in the house; and she hasted, and killed it, and took flour, and kneaded it, and did bake unleavened bread thereof:

25 And she brought it before Saul, and before his servants; and they did eat. Then they rose up, and went away that night.

I will look into this further tomorrow. I need to find out how Hebrew used the word "familiar spirit" and reconcile that with the fact the Scripture says plainly that it was SAMUEL who spoke to Saul. There is no mention of a demon impersonating Samuel, the Bible says it was SAMUEL. I take what the Scripture says directly and not what it could have been, might have been. and should have been, and determine the meaning by the context.

There is an online question and answer format website that discusses these familiar spirits and I realize now that there were indeed "familiar spirits", especially in the KJV. However, my position on Samuel has not changed. Even with familiar spirits existing, the Scriptures claim it was Samuel who spoke to Saul. So I believe that over those who try to blame a familiar spirit. I am sure the witch of Endor had used familiar spirits before but on this occasion God allowed Samuel to be awakened from his slumber and had him delivery His to Saul.

What is meant by "familiar spirits" in Isaiah 19:3, 29:4?

Isaiah 19:3: 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

 

[tonychanyt]

P1=9.9 vs P2=0.1

I have yet to hear a valid reason why it could not have been Samuel.

Are you willing to bet based on these weights?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Are you willing to bet based on these weights?

I don't bet. Make your argument.

 

[tonychanyt]

I don't bet. Make your argument.

I have no more argument that you may find profitable at this point. I changed my tactic. I want to see how strongly you believe in your position.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I have no more argument that you may find profitable at this point. I changed my tactic. I want to see how strongly you believe in your position.

lol, ok

 

[tonychanyt]

lol, ok

See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Bible says it was Samuel. What reason is there to say otherwise?

Agreed. And here is another text which no one has yet submitted that tells us Saul was actually seeing the real Samuel's spirit and not an evil spirit pretending to be the dead prophet.

Try 1 Samuel 15:35. "Samuel did not see Saul again UNTIL THE DAY OF HIS DEATH..." I believe this verse tells us that the spirit of Samuel saw King Saul on the day of King Saul's death - the very same day that Saul consulted the witch of Endor, and the spirit of the prophet Samuel appeared. King Saul and all his sons were with Samuel that very day when they were slain in battle, just as the spirit of Samuel predicted for King Saul.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Agreed. And here is another text which no one has yet submitted that tells us Saul was actually seeing the real Samuel's spirit and not an evil spirit pretending to be the dead prophet.

Try 1 Samuel 15:35. "Samuel did not see Saul again UNTIL THE DAY OF HIS DEATH..." I believe this verse tells us that the spirit of Samuel saw King Saul on the day of King Saul's death - the very same day that Saul consulted the witch of Endor, and the spirit of the prophet Samuel appeared. King Saul and all his sons were with Samuel that very day when they were slain in battle, just as the spirit of Samuel predicted for King Saul.

Very well done 3 resurrections, I had forgotten that for years. That verse cements the veracity of what I have been trying to get the others to see, that is was actually Samuel that Saul saw, just like the scriptures say. An excellent post!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Very well done 3 resurrections, I had forgotten that for years. That verse cements the veracity of what I have been trying to get the others to see, that is was actually Samuel that Saul saw, just like the scriptures say. An excellent post!

Thank you STT, but I should probably state that there may be those who would want to counter my points by saying the pronoun for "HIS death" should refer back to Samuel's day of death instead of King Saul's day of death. I would be willing to consider that objection, but it seems more likely that it was SAUL'S day of death in which the actual spirit of the dead prophet Samuel saw King Saul that night in Endor.

As an aside from the point this post is trying to discuss, I have also used this very same verse to prove that Saul's suicide (as well as his pursuit of the righteous David, Saul's episodes of irrational behavior, and his disobedience in consulting a familiar spirit) did not necessarily consign him to the ranks of the unsaved. The question of whether Saul was a child of God with all his broken record of behavior is an important one.

Saul and his three sons - including the godly Jonathan - would ALL be together with the spirit of the godly Samuel on the day of their death. The wounded King Saul we know fell on his own sword at the end of the battle. But if Saul and his three sons were ALL present with the spirit of the prophet Samuel that day of their death, this would seem to indicate that God was ultimately merciful to King Saul, in spite of all his erratic, reprehensible behavior leading up to his death (which has some similarities to a bi-polar disorder, in some respects).

This line of reasoning is not an encouragement for us to abuse God's mercy and keep behaving badly, presuming that God gives us license to do so. Rather, it is more a picture of God being able to make trophies out of the basest of mankind and use them for His purposes in spite of their past actions. Also, it is certainly not an encouragement for the depressed to take their own life. Rather, it is an assurance that even if a person has taken that route to escape what seems unendurable to them, that this last action does not necessarily consign them to the ranks of the unsaved.