Did Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

[tonychanyt]

Probably not, not the real Samuel. Leviticus 19:

31 “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

King Saul solicited the service of a medium in En-dor, 1 Samuel 28:

11Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.”

The medium was surprised that she actually saw Samuel. It was real.

13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god [elohim, gods, plural] coming [plural] up out of the earth.”

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

Elôhîm here denotes a supernatural, non-earthly being; or as Josephus paraphrases it, “one of god-like form.”​

​

Pulpit Commentary:

In answer to Saul she says, "I see Elohim ascending out of the earth." As the participle is plural, she does not mean God; nor, as it was a single appearance, is the rendering gods correct. What she means is that she saw some grand supernatural appearance rising out of the ground, which she calls a god in a general way, without attaching any very exact meaning to the term. 1 Samuel 28:13​

I think this was the spirit (elohim) figure that pretended to be the ghost of the dead Samuel.

14 He said to her, “What is his appearance?”

Saul could not see it.

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.

Saul was desperate about the war with the Philistines and wanted to consult Samuel, even the dead Samuel about it.

15 Then Samuel said to Saul,

For convenience, the writer refers to the spirit as Samuel which may or may not be true.

“Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams.

God did not want to answer Saul by normal legal means of communication.

Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

This summoning method was not approved by Moses.

16 And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?

As usual, the evil spirit was mixing truth with lies:

19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines,

true

and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me.

true in the sense that they would die; false in the sense that not all of them would be with Samuel.

The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines”

true.

A summary judgment is found in 1 Chronicles 10:

13 So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the LORD in that he did not keep the command of the LORD, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. 14 He did not seek guidance from the LORD. Therefore the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

The story has led to much discussion whether there was a real appearance of Samuel or not. On the one hand, the woman's profession, which was forbidden by the divine law, the refusal of God to answer Saul by any divinely constituted means, the well-known age, figure, and dress of Samuel, which she could easily represent herself, or by an accomplice—his apparition being evidently at some distance, being muffled, and not actually seen by Saul, whose attitude of prostrate homage, moreover, must have prevented him distinguishing the person though he had been near, and the voice seemingly issuing out of the ground, and coming along to Saul—and the vagueness of the information, imparted much which might have been reached by natural conjecture as to the probable result of the approaching conflict—the woman's representation—all of this has led many to think that this was a mere deception.​

On the other hand, many eminent writers (considering that the apparition came before her arts were put in practice; that she herself was surprised and alarmed; that the prediction of Saul's own death and the defeat of his forces was confidently made), are of opinion that Samuel really appeared.​

Scholars are split on this issue. I lean slightly toward that God allowed the pretending spirit of Samuel to tell some truths to Saul.

Many years later, God allowed a spirit to tell lies in the mouth of Ahab's bad prophets (1 Kings 22). God used satan-adversaries to accomplish his purposes one way or another.

 

[d taylor]

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Yes it was Samuel.

 

[Unqualified]

It was Samuel.

 

[tonychanyt]

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Yes it was Samuel.

Please provide some support

 

[d taylor]

Please provide some support

Samuel was a prophet from God. God still used Samuel (even through Samuel had died) to tell Saul of his up and coming judgment from God.

Verses state "Samuel said" two times.

 

[tonychanyt]

Samuel was a prophet from God. God still used Samuel (even through Samuel had died) to tell Saul of his up and coming judgment from God.

Verses state "Samuel said" two times.

Thanks for sharing. I put some weight on that

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[d taylor]

Thanks for sharing. I put some weight on that

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor. = 10
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor. = 0

 

[tonychanyt]

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor. = 10
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor. = 0

Are you willing to bet based on these weights?

 

[d taylor]

Are you willing to bet based on these weights?

No, we have discussed the betting before, i feel there is no need to bet on what i believe or what you believe. Or what any other person believes.

If you want to bet, that you can throw a rock farther than i can, may be so. But it would have to be in a situation where we are in the same location and can actually throw a rock to really see the outcome. No just over the internet rock throwing betting.

 

[tonychanyt]

No, we have discussed the betting before, i feel there is no need to bet on what i believe or what you believe. Or what any other person believes.

If you want to bet, that you can throw a rock farther than i can, may be so. But it would have to be in a situation where we are in the same location and can actually throw a rock to really see the outcome. No just over the internet rock throwing betting.

See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and follow up there.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Please provide some support

Hi Tony,

here is the whole account has described by the NASB in I Samuel 28. Please pay attention to the capitalized words. They are for emphasis.

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed from the land those who were mediums and spiritists. 4 So the Philistines gathered together and came and camped in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together and they camped in Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. 6 When Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”

8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall [b]name to you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?” 10 Saul vowed to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw SAMUEL, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a [c]divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul KNEW that it was SAMUEL, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

15 Then SAMUEL said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16 SAMUEL said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17 The Lord has done [d]accordingly as He spoke through me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 As you did not [e]obey the Lord and did not execute His fierce wrath in Amalek, so the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

20 Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the WORDS OF SAMUEL; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no [f]food all day and all night. 21 The woman came to Saul and saw that he was terrified, and said to him, “Behold, your maidservant has [g]obeyed you, and I have [h]taken my life in my hand and have listened to your words which you spoke to me. 22 So now also, please listen to the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you that you may eat and have strength when you go on your way.” 23 But he refused and said, “I will not eat.” However, his servants together with the woman urged him, and he listened to [i]them. So he arose from the ground and sat on the bed. 24 The woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly slaughtered it; and she took flour, kneaded it and baked unleavened bread from it. 25 She brought it before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and went away that night.

It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses, who do not believe in consciousness after death, do not believe that it was really Samuel too. Instead they put quotation marks around the word Samuel in their Bible, the NWT. Thus, in their translation of this occurrence, they write "Samuel" every time Samuel appears in their text. If you believe this chapter is inspired by God and God says it was Samuel and not a demon impersonating Samuel then I think that opinion should count for a lot. Let me know what you think.

 

[tonychanyt]

Hi Tony,

here is the whole account has described by the NASB in I Samuel 28. Please pay attention to the capitalized words. They are for emphasis.

3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed from the land those who were mediums and spiritists. 4 So the Philistines gathered together and came and camped in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together and they camped in Gilboa. 5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly. 6 When Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”

8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall [b]name to you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?” 10 Saul vowed to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw SAMUEL, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a [c]divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14 He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul KNEW that it was SAMUEL, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

15 Then SAMUEL said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16 SAMUEL said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17 The Lord has done [d]accordingly as He spoke through me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18 As you did not [e]obey the Lord and did not execute His fierce wrath in Amalek, so the Lord has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

20 Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the WORDS OF SAMUEL; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no [f]food all day and all night. 21 The woman came to Saul and saw that he was terrified, and said to him, “Behold, your maidservant has [g]obeyed you, and I have [h]taken my life in my hand and have listened to your words which you spoke to me. 22 So now also, please listen to the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you that you may eat and have strength when you go on your way.” 23 But he refused and said, “I will not eat.” However, his servants together with the woman urged him, and he listened to [i]them. So he arose from the ground and sat on the bed. 24 The woman had a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly slaughtered it; and she took flour, kneaded it and baked unleavened bread from it. 25 She brought it before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and went away that night.

It is interesting that the Jehovah Witnesses, who do not believe in consciousness after death, do not believe that it was really Samuel too. Instead they put quotation marks around the word Samuel in their Bible, the NWT. Thus, in their translation of this occurrence, they write "Samuel" every time Samuel appears in their text. If you believe this chapter is inspired by God and God says it was Samuel and not a demon impersonating Samuel then I think that opinion should count for a lot. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for sharing. I put some weight on that

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Thanks for sharing. I put some weight on that

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

I just take scripture for what is says. I don't create mathematical formulas to determine if it was really Samuel or not. If the inspired word says it was Samuel, I believe it was Samuel, no need to make scales 0-10 or any other mathematical formulas. The god-breathed Scripture says it was Samuel. That's enough for me.

 

[tonychanyt]

I just take scripture for what is says. I don't create mathematical formulas to determine if it was really Samuel or not. If the inspired word says it was Samuel, I believe it was Samuel, no need to make scales 0-10 or any other mathematical formulas. The god-breathed Scripture says it was Samuel. That's enough for me.

Are you willing to bet on that?

 

[tonychanyt]

The god-breathed Scripture says it was Samuel. That's enough for me.

What does the god-breathed Scripture say about abortion?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Are you willing to bet on that?

To bet on the veracity of God's word is impossible to me. I would feel God's wrath for betting on God's word with a skeptic. I believe God's word is correct in I Samuel 28 and you, the skeptic want to try to get one of his believers to bet on it. That is extremely satanic. Bet on God's word? You will find out when you die. Why is this so important that you want a believer to bet on it? Are you trying to sow doubt in the heart of believers? A true believer will never bet with a skeptic on the word of God. By the way, how do you propose to determine the winner of the bet?

 

[tonychanyt]

To bet on the veracity of God's word is impossible to me. I would feel God's wrath for betting on God's word with a skeptic.

verse?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What does the god-breathed Scripture say about abortion?

In the Old Testament it is revealed that if an unborn child is miscarried because of the actions of another person and that miscarriage results in death, it is to be life for life. Since God spoke these words and not Moses, then I believe it is clear that god-breathed scripture doesn't approve of it. Why? Have you gotten some poor girl pregnant? That is such an unusual question to ask someone that you don't know.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

verse?

Why are you asking me for a verse from the Bible for my reason to fear God's wrath for betting on the truth of his word. You need to spend some time in prayer. Ask Yahweh to help you find answers to your questions. You obviously take great delight in trying to get Christians to question what the Bible says about certain subjects.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

verse?

It seems to me you are a troll claiming to be a Christian. If you were a true Christian you would not be trying to get believers to bet on the Word of God. So, go ask others your questions about your 0-10 odds that such and such is a certain way.