Did Samuel appear to Saul in En-dor?

[tonychanyt]

In the Old Testament it is revealed that if an unborn child is miscarried because of the actions of another person and that miscarriage results in death, it is to be life for life. Since God spoke these words and not Moses, then I believe it is clear that god-breathed scripture doesn't approve of it. Why? Have you gotten some poor girl pregnant? That is such an unusual question to ask someone that you don't know.

See Is aborting a baby murder? and follow up there

 

[tonychanyt]

Why are you asking me for a verse from the Bible for my reason to fear God's wrath for betting on the truth of his word. You need to spend some time in prayer. Ask Yahweh to help you find answers to your questions. You obviously take great delight in trying to get Christians to question what the Bible says about certain subjects.

Are you in the habit of making claims without Scriptural support?

 

[tonychanyt]

It seems to me you are a troll claiming to be a Christian. If you were a true Christian you would not be trying to get believers to bet on the Word of God. So, go ask others your questions about your 0-10 odds that such and such is a certain way.

See How did I come to Jesus: My Testimony.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Are you in the habit of making claims without Scriptural support?

I make a lot of claims without scriptural support. For example, my favorite baseball team the Atlanta Braves defeated their opponent yesterday 7-5. I believe that my fiancee is the most beautiful woman in the world, and on and on it could go, making claims without scriptural support. You are a troll alright, just trying to stir up trouble. If you really believe a Christian needs scriptural support for EVERYTHING they claim then you are either very uneducated and/or suffer from religious ideation. I'm not interested in reading your testimony because I have already read enough from you in person to see you are a troll. I don't want to waste my time. You shall know them by their fruits, not what their testimony says.

 

[BobRyan]

Probably not, not the real Samuel. Leviticus 19:

true. "To make inquiry of IT"

1 Chron 10: (NASB 1955)
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,

King Saul solicited the service of a medium in En-dor, 1 Samuel 28:

The medium was surprised that she actually saw Samuel.

not true. The medium agreed to "bring up Samuel" - SHE states that her surprise was that the person asking for this "favor" was KING Saul - the very one who put the death sentence on mediums for dealing with the spirits and the dead.

King Saul is in disguise and fools the witch - but he cannot fool her demon. So when the demon pretends to bring Samuel from the dead it also informs the witch that it is king Saul that is her client and that Saul is deceiving her.

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

She does not say "why was I so successful at bringing up Samuel ?? I am shocked I can do this!!" - as you seem to suppose.

 

[BobRyan]

Saul makes the point in 1 Sam 28 that he "needs" a witch with a "familiar spirit" (a demon)

The idea was that the witches had an alliance with demons and the demons had control over the dead - saints and also the wicked dead. That was "the story" Satan was telling.

The text says "conjure up for me whomever I shall name"
The text says "by thy familiar spirit"
The text says Saul could not see Samuel only the witch could see him... only the servant of satan could see him.
The text says the witch and king saul claimed that witched and demons had that power over Samuel.. Should we concur?? Not when God called this deception and abomination.


from: What is a familiar spirit in biblical context?
"A familiar spirit is actually a demon who has listened and observed people and is imitating one who is deceased… and it appears or speaks to someone, often a relative or loved one. The Bible instructs us not to have conversations with the dead, because it is really a demon"


NASB 1955 – 1 Sam 28:

8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you.” 9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?”

YLT - 1 Sam 28:
8 And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.'

NKJV - 1 Sam 28
8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

NIV - 1 Sam 28:
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

It was real.

Only if you choose to believe the claims of the witch and the power of the demon over the souls of dead saints.

The Bible does not promote that story line.

King Saul went to the witch and her demon - and what he got was "a story line" -- just as Eve did at the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[BobRyan]

See Is aborting a baby murder? and follow up there

God commanded a great many people to be executed - that does not mean we are free to murder.

You are skipping past too many details.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

true. "To make inquiry of IT"

1 Chron 10: (NASB 1955)
13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the Lord, because of the word of the Lord which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it,

The "IT" in I Chronicles 10:13 refers back grammatically to the medium. The medium was, in Hebrew. an "it", or so I have been told. I know some german and in the german designates a gender to every noun, and each noun can be either a "she", "he" or "it". A key, for example, is a "he", a table is a "he" and a door is a "she" and a book is a "it". A child is neither a he or a she, it is a "it". In many foreign languages, including Hebrew and Greek, nouns take on certain genders that sometimes or not related to sex. The "it" in ! Chronicles 10:13 is referring back to the medium. See

1 Chronicles 10:13 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

In the link above you can see various ways "it" can be translated. And, always remember, no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL and not a demon impersonating Samuel. To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea. The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL three times in I Samuel 28 and you want to question it because the pronoun "it" is used to refer back to the medium.

 

[tonychanyt]

I make a lot of claims without scriptural support. For example, my favorite baseball team the Atlanta Braves defeated their opponent yesterday 7-5.

Are you in the habit of making claims about the Bible without Scriptural support?

 

[BobRyan]

The "IT" in I Chronicles 10:13 refers back grammatically to the medium. The medium was, in Hebrew. an "it", or so I have been told.

Possibly because the demon that the witch/medium works with (they function as a team in that case) - is considered an "it" but does not mean the demon is not a personal being as would be the case with a rock or a board.

no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL

1 Chronicles 10 does not say Saul was condemned for "consulting Samuel". It says he was condemned for consulting the medium. 1 Chron 10 does not claim Samuel was actually involved at all.

The problem with what the demon was trying to pull off - is that there is no such thing as demons having control over the spirits of the dead, whether good or bad. The only thing being consulted was the demon and even the witch did not claim to have the power to contact Samuel but rather needed a demon to do it for her.

The text says "Samuel" in the same way as it says "the trees went out to elect a king" but does not mean that the reader should think this actually happened.

1 Sam 28 never says that Saul sees Samuel - according to the story line there - only the witch had the "powers" to see Samuel.

So now you are stuck with only demons can contact the dead saints, and only witches can see them - when they "really come UP". (and of course you have spirits of saints coming UP rather than coming DOWN from God. The Bible says "the spirit goes back to GOD who gave it" but the demon story has them coming UP in a seance/by a medium/conjured up).

What is more it would be Samuel cooperating in a seance strictly condemned by God and even Samuel himself refused to be consulted by King Saul before Samuel died. So this is against both God's Will for Samuel (as Saul admits) and against Samuel's own practice regarding King Saul just before his death.

and not a demon impersonating Samuel.

The implications of all that demon control over dead saints and the fact that only the witches can see the dead saints when they "come up" is more the story line of the demon than the Bible. Which is why the Bible condemns all of this.

To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea.

There are a number of details in both chapters that show that this is not Samuel.

2. In Exodus 7:11-12 – the Bible says the Egyptian magicians turned their staffs into snakes – but only God can “create life”.

The devil himself thinks only God can create life so one of his temptations for Christ to prove He is actually god - is to turn rocks into bread. Yet the bible does not tell the reader that in fact the magicians and their demons where only providing the illusion of turning sticks into living snakes.

The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL

And they say the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and they say the trees went out to elect a king.

The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Please provide some support

The Bible says it was Samuel. What reason is there to say otherwise?

 

[tonychanyt]

The Bible says it was Samuel. What reason is there to say otherwise?

Let proposition P1 = The real Samuel appeared to Saul in En-dor.
P2 = The real Samuel did not appear to Saul in En-dor.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Possibly because the demon that the witch/medium works with (they function as a team in that case) - is considered an "it" but does not mean the demon is not a personal being as would be the case with a rock or a board.

1 Chronicles 10 does not say Saul was condemned for "consulting Samuel". It says he was condemned for consulting the medium. 1 Chron 10 does not claim Samuel was actually involved at all.

The problem with what the demon was trying to pull off - is that there is no such thing as demons having control over the spirits of the dead, whether good or bad. The only thing being consulted was the demon and even the witch did not claim to have the power to contact Samuel but rather needed a demon to do it for her.

The text says "Samuel" in the same way as it says "the trees went out to elect a king" but does not mean that the reader should think this actually happened.

1 Sam 28 never says that Saul sees Samuel - according to the story line there - only the witch had the "powers" to see Samuel.

So now you are stuck with only demons can contact the dead saints, and only witches can see them - when they "really come UP". (and of course you have spirits of saints coming UP rather than coming DOWN from God. The Bible says "the spirit goes back to GOD who gave it" but the demon story has them coming UP in a seance/by a medium/conjured up).

What is more it would be Samuel cooperating in a seance strictly condemned by God and even Samuel himself refused to be consulted by King Saul before Samuel died. So this is against both God's Will for Samuel (as Saul admits) and against Samuel's own practice regarding King Saul just before his death.

The implications of all that demon control over dead saints and the fact that only the witches can see the dead saints when they "come up" is more the story line of the demon than the Bible. Which is why the Bible condemns all of this.

There are a number of details in both chapters that show that this is not Samuel.

2. In Exodus 7:11-12 – the Bible says the Egyptian magicians turned their staffs into snakes – but only God can “create life”.

The devil himself thinks only God can create life so one of his temptations for Christ to prove He is actually god - is to turn rocks into bread. Yet the bible does not tell the reader that in fact the magicians and their demons where only providing the illusion of turning sticks into living snakes.


And they say the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and they say the trees went out to elect a king.

The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
The "IT" in I Chronicles 10:13 refers back grammatically to the medium. The medium was, in Hebrew. an "it", or so I have been told.

BOB RYAN
Possibly because the demon that the witch/medium works with (they function as a team in that case) - is considered an "it" but does not mean the demon is not a personal being as would be the case with a rock or a board.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Possibly this, possibly that. There are many possibilities in the world today but I do not base my beliefs on mere possibilities. I need evidence.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL

BOB RYAN
1 Chronicles 10 does not say Saul was condemned for "consulting Samuel".

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Where did I ever say that? Here, let’s look at what I did write:

In the link above you can see various ways "it" can be translated. And, always remember, no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL and not a demon impersonating Samuel. To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea. The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL three times in I Samuel 28 and you want to question it because the pronoun "it" is used to refer back to the medium.

Notice and read carefully. I did not say Saul was condemned for “consulting Samuel”. He was condemned for consulting the medium. It was Samuel, not a demon impersonating Samuel. Where did you get that idea from” At least I have scripture on my side that states it was Samuel who spoke to Saul and you have none that claims it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The problem with what the demon was trying to pull off - is that there is no such thing as demons having control over the spirits of the dead, whether good or bad. The only thing being consulted was the demon and even the witch did not claim to have the power to contact Samuel but rather needed a demon to do it for her.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I did not claim it was a demon. You are the one that is claiming that. The Scriptures no where claim it was a demon impersonating Samuel. The Scriptures, on the other hand, state it was SAMUEL that spoke to Saul. Please show me where it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The text says "Samuel" in the same way as it says "the trees went out to elect a king" but does not mean that the reader should think this actually happened.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
You are trying to interpret this passage by appealing to a metaphor used elsewhere in the Scriptures. That is not how you interpret Scriptures. You appeal to the context and don’t use an example found somewhere else in the Scripture that is a metaphor in order to claim the text in I Samuel 28 is a metaphor. The Scriptures plainly say it was SAMUEL that spoke to Saul so if you want to claim this is just a metaphor then you have the burden of proof to establish this passage in I Samuel 28 is a metaphor.

BOB RYAN
1 Sam 28 never says that Saul sees Samuel - according to the story line there - only the witch had the "powers" to see Samuel.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
So what if the Scriptures never say that Saul sees Samuel? It does say that SAMUEL spoke to Saul. And, it says that Saul KNEW it was Samuel. It doesn’t say Saul thought it was Samuel or Saul imagined it was Samuel, it says Saul KNEW it was Samuel. Was the Holy Spirit, who inspired this passage really mean Saul KNEW it was Samuel?

BOB RYAN
So now you are stuck with only demons can contact the dead saints, and only witches can see them

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Scriptures do not say that ONLY demons can contact the dead saints, and ONLY witches can see them – where did I claim that? Where do the scriptures claim that? There is no demon mentioned in I Samuel 28. Where are you getting this demon from? Not the Bible. I believe the Hebrew Scriptures teach that when someone dies they go to Sheol, a subterranean region where the dead “sleep” until the day of their resurrection. In this instance, God allowed the witch of Endor to raise the shade of Samuel and allowed Samuel to prophesy correctly that Saul and his sons would die in battle the next day and be with him. No demon is mentioned here – just a medium who was scared for her life.

BOB RYAN
- when they "really come UP". (and of course you have spirits of saints coming UP rather than coming DOWN from God.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Samuel came UP because in those days it was believed all the dead went DOWN into the lower regions of the earth. In the Hebrew Scriptures the words SOUL and SPIRIT are sometimes used interchangeably and the Bible does say when man dies his spirit returns to the God who gave it. But spirit was not the conscious part of man. When a man died, his body went into a grave, if he was lucky enough to be buried. In the Hebrew grave was translated from the Hebrew word QEBER. His soul, though, went to SHEOL, whether he was buried or not. SHEOL became known as the common grave of all mankind, buried or not. So, if one of the dead was awakened from his “sleep” then it would be correct to go UP and not DOWN. Also, SAMUEL (not a demon) asked Saul “why have you disquieted me” which indicates he had been “sleeping”.

BOB RYAN
The Bible says "the spirit goes back to GOD who gave it" but the demon story has them coming UP in a seance/by a medium/conjured up).

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Again, you claim a demon did this. Chapter and verse please. You are also confusing spirit with soul. The spirit is not the conscious part of man. I would like to see your proof, from the Hebrew Scriptures, that the spirit that returns to God, is the conscious part of man. Also, if I were you, I would do some study on the Hebrew word SHEOL and see for yourself that it is DOWN, a subterranean part of the earth.

BOB RYAN
What is more it would be Samuel cooperating in a seance strictly condemned by God and even Samuel himself refused to be consulted by King Saul before Samuel died. So this is against both God's Will for Samuel (as Saul admits) and against Samuel's own practice regarding King Saul just before his death.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Why, if Samuel “co-operated” in a séance with God’s permission would this be a bad thing. Good grief my man, there were over 50 million people incinerated in the Holocaust and God allowed that to happen. Why is it such a big deal to you that God made an exception to his rule of no seances allowed? God also forbade lying but he made exceptions to this rule. God would send lying spirits to prophets yet according to you that would be impossible because God forbade lying. So, if God allowed Samuel to be brought UP to give Saul one more prophecy, why do you struggle with that?

Saber Truth Tiger said:
and not a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The implications of all that demon control over dead saints and the fact that only the witches can see the dead saints when they "come up" is more the story line of the demon than the Bible. Which is why the Bible condemns all of this.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
There was no demon mentioned in the entire chapter of I Samuel 28 and you are still going on about this unknown demon. Good grief man, the Scriptures tell you it is SAMUEL and you still insist it was a demon. Show me in I Samuel 28 where a demon is mentioned. God allowed it to happen. It’s that simple. If God allowed it to happen, then yes, we need no demon to do it. There are no demons mentioned in I Samuel 28. The Scripture *say* it was SAMUEL, not the story line of a demon impersonating Samuel.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea.

BOB RYAN
There are a number of details in both chapters that show that this is not Samuel.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Show me where.

BOB RYAN
2. In Exodus 7:11-12 – the Bible says the Egyptian magicians turned their staffs into snakes – but only God can “create life”.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Ok, so what you are saying is since the magicians turned their staffs into snakes, we must believe that it was a demon impersonating Samuel? It’s back to context, context, and context. In Exodus 7, God allowed the magicians to perform certain things that Moses and Aaron did yet, as the story unfolds, the miracles become harder to duplicate and the magicians soon admit to their Pharoah that they are unable to duplicate the miracles of Moses and Aaron. So, tell me, how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel in I Saamuel 28?

BOB RYAN
The devil himself thinks only God can create life so one of his temptations for Christ to prove He is actually god - is to turn rocks into bread. Yet the bible does not tell the reader that in fact the magicians and their demons where only providing the illusion of turning sticks into living snakes.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
And how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel in I Samuel 28? Please enlighten me.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL

BOB RYAN
And they say the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and they say the trees went out to elect a king.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Bible says the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and yet this does not prove that a demon impersonated Samuel. You have a long way to go Bob.

BOB RYAN
The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The reader is supposed to read the scriptures in context. Read it in context and let context determine the meaning. Jumping over to this verse here, then this verse there, then this verse somewhere in the middle is not the way to properly determine context. That is how false teachings are developed. When one does this, he must use extreme caution. Nothing you wrote even closely proved a demon impersonated Samuel.

 

[tonychanyt]

Saber Truth Tiger said:
The "IT" in I Chronicles 10:13 refers back grammatically to the medium. The medium was, in Hebrew. an "it", or so I have been told.

BOB RYAN
Possibly because the demon that the witch/medium works with (they function as a team in that case) - is considered an "it" but does not mean the demon is not a personal being as would be the case with a rock or a board.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Possibly this, possibly that. There are many possibilities in the world today but I do not base my beliefs on mere possibilities. I need evidence.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL

BOB RYAN
1 Chronicles 10 does not say Saul was condemned for "consulting Samuel".

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Where did I ever say that? Here, let’s look at what I did write:

In the link above you can see various ways "it" can be translated. And, always remember, no matter what the referent of "it" is, in I Samuel 28 the scriptures plainly teach that it was SAMUEL and not a demon impersonating Samuel. To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea. The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL three times in I Samuel 28 and you want to question it because the pronoun "it" is used to refer back to the medium.

Notice and read carefully. I did not say Saul was condemned for “consulting Samuel”. He was condemned for consulting the medium. It was Samuel, not a demon impersonating Samuel. Where did you get that idea from” At least I have scripture on my side that states it was Samuel who spoke to Samuel and you have none that claims it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The problem with what the demon was trying to pull off - is that there is no such thing as demons having control over the spirits of the dead, whether good or bad. The only thing being consulted was the demon and even the witch did not claim to have the power to contact Samuel but rather needed a demon to do it for her.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I did not claim it was a demon. You are the one that is claiming that. The Scriptures no where claim it was a demon impersonating Samuel. The Scriptures, on the other hand, state it was SAMUEL that spoke to Saul. Please show me where it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The text says "Samuel" in the same way as it says "the trees went out to elect a king" but does not mean that the reader should think this actually happened.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
You are trying to interpret this passage by appealing to a metaphor used elsewhere in the Scriptures. That is not how you interpret Scriptures. You appeal to the context and don’t use an example found somewhere else in the Scripture that is a metaphor in order to claim the text in I Samuel 28 is a metaphor. The Scriptures plainly say it was SAMUEL that spoke to Saul so if you want to claim this is just a metaphor then you have the burden of proof to establish this passage in I Samuel 28 is a metaphor.

BOB RYAN
1 Sam 28 never says that Saul sees Samuel - according to the story line there - only the witch had the "powers" to see Samuel.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
So what if the Scriptures never say that Saul sees Samuel? It does say that SAMUEL spoke to Saul. And, it says that Saul KNEW it was Samuel. It doesn’t say Saul thought it was Samuel or Saul imagined it was Samuel, it says Saul KNEW it was Samuel. Was the Holy Spirit, who inspired this passage really mean Saul KNEW it was Samuel?

BOB RYAN
So now you are stuck with only demons can contact the dead saints, and only witches can see them

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Scriptures do not say that ONLY demons can contact the dead saints, and ONLY witches can see them – where did I claim that? Where do the scriptures claim that? There is no demon mentioned in I Samuel 28. Where are you getting this demon from? Not the Bible. I believe the Hebrew Scriptures teach that when someone dies they go to Sheol, a subterranean region where the dead “sleep” until the day of their resurrection. In this instance, God allowed the witch of Endor to raise the shade of Samuel and allowed Samuel to prophesy correctly that Saul and his sons would die in battle the next day and be with him. No demon is mentioned here – just a medium who was scared for her life.

BOB RYAN
- when they "really come UP". (and of course you have spirits of saints coming UP rather than coming DOWN from God.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Samuel came UP because in those days it was believed all the dead went DOWN into the lower regions of the earth. In the Hebrew Scriptures the words SOUL and SPIRIT are sometimes used interchangeably and the Bible does say when man dies his spirit returns to the God who gave it. But spirit was not the conscious part of man. When a man died, his body went into a grave, if he was lucky enough to be buried. In the Hebrew grave was translated from the Hebrew word QEBER. His soul, though, went to SHEOL, whether he was buried or not. SHEOL became known as the common grave of all mankind, buried or not. So, if one of the dead was awakened from his “sleep” then it would be correct to go UP and not DOWN. Also, SAMUEL (not a demon) asked Saul “why have you disquieted me” which indicates he had been “sleeping”.

BOB RYAN
The Bible says "the spirit goes back to GOD who gave it" but the demon story has them coming UP in a seance/by a medium/conjured up).

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Again, you claim a demon did this. Chapter and verse please. You are also confusing spirit with soul. The spirit is not the conscious part of man. I would like to see your proof, from the Hebrew Scriptures, that the spirit that returns to God, is the conscious part of man. Also, if I were you, I would do some study on the Hebrew word SHEOL and see for yourself that it is DOWN, a subterranean part of the earth.

BOB RYAN
What is more it would be Samuel cooperating in a seance strictly condemned by God and even Samuel himself refused to be consulted by King Saul before Samuel died. So this is against both God's Will for Samuel (as Saul admits) and against Samuel's own practice regarding King Saul just before his death.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Why, if Samuel “co-operated” in a séance with God’s permission would this be a bad thing. Good grief my man, there were over 50 million people incinerated in the Holocaust and God allowed that to happen. Why is it such a big deal to you that God made an exception to his rule of no seances allowed? God also forbade lying but he made exceptions to this rule. God would send lying spirits to prophets yet according to you that would be impossible because God forbade lying. So, if God allowed Samuel to be brought UP to give Saul one more prophecy, why do you struggle with that?

Saber Truth Tiger said:
and not a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
The implications of all that demon control over dead saints and the fact that only the witches can see the dead saints when they "come up" is more the story line of the demon than the Bible. Which is why the Bible condemns all of this.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
There was no demon mentioned in the entire chapter of I Samuel 28 and you are still going on about this unknown demon. Good grief man, the Scriptures tell you it is SAMUEL and you still insist it was a demon. Show me in I Samuel 28 where a demon is mentioned. God allowed it to happen. It’s that simple. If God allowed it to happen, then yes, we need no demon to do it. There are no demons mentioned in I Samuel 28. The Scripture *say* it was SAMUEL, not the story line of a demon impersonating Samuel.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
To call almost a whole chapter of the Hebrew Scriptures in error because of a single pronoun in another book is not a good idea.

BOB RYAN
There are a number of details in both chapters that show that this is not Samuel.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Show me where.

BOB RYAN
2. In Exodus 7:11-12 – the Bible says the Egyptian magicians turned their staffs into snakes – but only God can “create life”.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Ok, so what you are saying is since the magicians turned their staffs into snakes, we must believe that it was a demon impersonating Samuel? It’s back to context, context, and context. In Exodus 7, God allowed the magicians to perform certain things that Moses and Aaron did yet, as the story unfolds, the miracles become harder to duplicate and the magicians soon admit to their Pharoah that they are unable to duplicate the miracles of Moses and Aaron. So, tell me, how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel in I Saamuel 28?

BOB RYAN
The devil himself thinks only God can create life so one of his temptations for Christ to prove He is actually god - is to turn rocks into bread. Yet the bible does not tell the reader that in fact the magicians and their demons where only providing the illusion of turning sticks into living snakes.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
And how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel in I Samuel 28? Please enlighten me.

Saber Truth Tiger said:
The Sacred Scriptures claim it was SAMUEL

BOB RYAN
And they say the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and they say the trees went out to elect a king.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Bible says the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and yet this does not prove that a demon impersonated Samuel. You have a long way to go Bob.

BOB RYAN
The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The reader is supposed to read the scriptures in context. Read it in context and let context determine the meaning. Jumping over to this verse here, then this verse there, then this verse somewhere in the middle is not the way to properly determine context. That is how false teachings are developed. When one does this, he must use extreme caution. Nothing you wrote even closely proved a demon impersonated Samuel.

Thanks for listing the trace of the conversion. Is there a simple way to collect this trace or did you do it manually one by one? In Reddit, the system does this automatically.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Thanks for listing the trace of the conversion. Is there a simple way to collect this trace or did you do it manually one by one? In Reddit, the system does this automatically.

I cut and paste the article I am responding to and paste it to a Word Document. Then. I tag the writer's name over the comment I wish to quote, then skip a space or two, write my name and add a comment. When my comment is complete, I skip a space or two then put the name of the person I am responding to over his comment and interrupt now and then to add a response to his comments.

 

[BobRyan]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Ok, so what you are saying is since the magicians turned their staffs into snakes, we must believe that it was a demon impersonating Samuel?

My point is that even satan knows the demons cannot create life so he tempts Christ to turn rocks into bread - as "proof" that Christ is God the Son in human flesh - only God can do what the magicians claimed they were doing via illusions.

But Exodus does not take the time to spell all that out for us. It speaks of what the demons claimed to have done in the case of the Magicians of Egypt and in the case of the witch in 1 Sam 28 and her "familiar spirit" demon --- were claiming to do.

the reader is supposed to read the scripture in context. God condemned what the witch and her demon were claiming to do ... how "odd" that we would no know that Samuel would have no part in that which God condemns. In fact even in his life at the end of it Samuel was not giving any prophetic word to Saul.

 

[BobRyan]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The Bible says the magicians turned the sticks into serpents and yet this does not prove that a demon impersonated Samuel. You have a long way to go Bob.

1. The Bible says the trees elected a king
2. The Bible says the magicians turned sticks into snakes
3. The bible says - only the witch could see the dead Samuel in 1 Sam 28 -- and it says that God stopped all prophets from ministering to king Saul -- it is right there in that same chapter. So it was not just Samuel God was stopping from ministering to Saul.
4. The bible says that the witch claimed the dead Samuel was still wearing his old clothes and was an aging old man even in his dead spirit form wearing those clothes
5. The bible says King Saul had to ask the witch what Samuel looked like - because only the witch claimed to see Samuel
6. The Bible says the witch claimed that Samuel "came up out of the ground" with his old clothes and in his old aging-skin form
7. The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead do not know anything" Eccl 9:5
8. The Bible says "God is not the god of the dead" Matt 22.
9. The Bible says the entire event in 1 Sam 28 - was a seance, was conjuring up the dead, was the work of a "familiar spirit'
10. The Bible says the demons are liars.

BOB RYAN
The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The reader is supposed to read the scriptures in context. Read it in context and let context determine the meaning.

And that "exegesis" includes what the Bible says in the chapter and in all other chapters that deal with the same topic.

Exegesis is not about "ignoring the rest of the Bible and lifting one chapter out of that broader context"

 

[BobRyan]

BOB RYAN
The devil himself thinks only God can create life so one of his temptations for Christ to prove He is actually god - is to turn rocks into bread. Yet the bible does not tell the reader that in fact the magicians and their demons where only providing the illusion of turning sticks into living snakes.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
And how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel in I Samuel 28? Please enlighten me.

Well obviously if the devil himself thinks that only God can turn stones into bread - and that this would prove Jesus to be God the Son - the for dead sure the magicians had no ability to take life-less dead "sticks" and turn them into living snakes.

I don't see how this is the hard part.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

My point is that even satan knows the demons cannot create life so he tempts Christ to turn rocks into bread - as "proof" that Christ is God the Son in human flesh - only God can do what the magicians claimed they were doing via illusions.

But Exodus does not take the time to spell all that out for us. It speaks of what the demons claimed to have done in the case of the Magicians of Egypt and in the case of the witch in 1 Sam 28 and her "familiar spirit" demon --- were claiming to do.

the reader is supposed to read the scripture in context God condemned what the witch and her demon were claiming to do ... how "odd" that we would no know that Samuel would have no part in that which God condemns. In fact even in his life at the end of it Samuel was not giving any prophetic word to Saul.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
That's right, only God can allow certain scriptural things to happen. He can allow the magicians to create life, because He is God and as God he can do what he wants. He allowed the magicians to create life, but he also made it where the serpents Moses and Aaron made to eat the snakes that Pharaoh's magicians had made. Notice, it was not demons that created life (they are not even mentioned in the account) but Pharaoh's magicians, flesh and blood human beings. That is what the Bible says. It says the magicians did it. This does not prove that a demon impersonated Samuel.

The reader is supposed to read the scripture in context and not take other scriptures out of context to build a false doctrine. Samuel did not want to talk to Saul but God had a purpose in allowing Samuel to come "up" and render unto Saul the prophecy from God Himself. Samuel allowed himself to be used by God to deliver God's prophecy to Saul. Samuel may not have wanted to be "disquieted" but he did according to the will of God,

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

1. The Bible says the trees elected a king
2. The Bible says the magicians turned sticks into snakes
3. The bible says - only the witch could see the dead Samuel in 1 Sam 28 -- and it says that God stopped all prophets from ministering to king Saul -- it is right there in that same chapter. So it was not just Samuel God was stopping from ministering to Saul.
4. The bible says that the witch claimed the dead Samuel was still wearing his old clothes and was an aging old man even in his dead spirit form wearing those clothes
5. The bible says King Saul had to ask the witch what Samuel looked like - because only the witch claimed to see Samuel
6. The Bible says the witch claimed that Samuel "came up out of the ground" with his old clothes and in his old aging-skin form
7. The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead do not know anything" Eccl 9:5
8. The Bible says "God is not the god of the dead" Matt 22.
9. The Bible says the entire event in 1 Sam 28 - was a seance, was conjuring up the dead, was the work of a "familiar spirit'
10. The Bible says the demons are liars.



And that "exegesis" includes what the Bible says in the chapter and in all other chapters that deal with the same topic.

Exegesis is not about "ignoring the rest of the Bible and lifting one chapter out of that broader context"

BOB RYAN
The Bible says the trees elected a king

SABER TRUTH TIGER
So? How does that prove that a demon imitated Samuel?

BOB RYAN
2. The Bible says the magicians turned sticks into snakes

SABER TRUTH TIGER
How does this prove a demon impersonated Samuel?

BOB RYAN
3. The bible says - only the witch could see the dead Samuel in 1 Sam 28 -- and it says that God stopped all prophets from ministering to king Saul -- it is right there in that same chapter. So it was not just Samuel God was stopping from ministering to Saul.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Still, how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel? God sometimes allow somethings to happen that is not his will. The Scriptures tell us PLAINLY that it was SAMUEL that spoke the words to Saul, NOT a demon impersonating Samuel.

BOB RYAN
4. The bible says that the witch claimed the dead Samuel was still wearing his old clothes and was an aging old man even in his dead spirit form wearing those clothes

SABER TRUTH TIGER
So, how does this prove a demon was impersonating Samuel? Do you expect that if a spirit appeared to you it would have to be naked?

BOB RYAN
5. The bible says King Saul had to ask the witch what Samuel looked like - because only the witch claimed to see Samuel

SABER TRUTH TIGER
And how does this prove that a demon impersonated Samuel?

BOB RYAN
6. The Bible says the witch claimed that Samuel "came up out of the ground" with his old clothes and in his old aging-skin form

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I fail to see how this proves that a demon was impersonating Samuel. Samuel’s body was in a grave somewhere in Israel. This was his spirit, which God allowed the medium to see and it scared her.

BOB RYAN
7. The Bible says "the living know that they will die - but the dead do not know anything" Eccl 9:5

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, that is very true, But the Bible ALSO says that SAMUEL spoke the words to Saul. Samuel was asleep in SHEOL and God allowed him to be awakened long enough to deliver his prophecy to SAUL.

BOB RYAN
8. The Bible says "God is not the god of the dead" Matt 22.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, it does say that, but again, if God allows a dead person to rise from the dead, in spirit form, then that person is not violating God’s law that the dead know not anything.

BOB RYAN
9. The Bible says the entire event in 1 Sam 28 - was a seance, was conjuring up the dead, was the work of a "familiar spirit'

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Where does the Bible say it was the work of a “familiar spirit”? Read it here and tell me which verse you find “familiar spirit” in

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Samuel 28 - New American Standard Bible 1995

BOB RYAN
10. The Bible says the demons are liars.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
And? How does this prove a demon impersonated Samuel in I Samuel 28?

Saber Truth Tiger said:

BOB RYAN
The reader is supposed to take more Bible details into account than just a few sentences.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The reader is supposed to read the scriptures in context. Read it in context and let context determine the meaning.

BOB RYAN
And that "exegesis" includes what the Bible says in the chapter and in all other chapters that deal with the same topic.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
But that does not mean you can just go willy nilly here and there and lifting verses out of context and creating your own doctrine.

BOB RYAN
Exegesis is not about "ignoring the rest of the Bible and lifting one chapter out of that broader context"

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Exegesis is about prayerfully keeping in context and avoiding the pitfalls of simply ignoring context and grabbing this verse here and this verse there and then another in the middle, etc. The bottom line of all this is in context, the Scriptures say it was Samuel that spoke to Saul and not a demon impersonating him.