Did Noah find favor or grace?

[Hismessenger]

Van,

What was it that Noah was obedient too since there was no law at that time. And second what obedience did Adam and Eve show that caused God to grant them grace to continue to live after their transgressions. Abraham was a gentile saved by grace for where in scripture does it say that his obedience caused God to choose him to be father of many nations. Show us one, just one and your arguement will have some merit. Otherwise go back and study your word and learn the truth.

hismessenger

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Van - I have some startling news for you.

The Hebrew word used for "grace" or "favor" is "hen" or trans. "chen". It is a derivative of "hanan", which is lit. "I, be gracious; pity". It depicts a heartfelt response by one who has something to give to one who has need (i.e. God giving "grace" or "favor" to Noah). "hen" can be translated either "favor", "grace" or "charm". Out of its 69 occurances, it appears 43 times in the phrase "to find favor in the eyes of". It typically has the idea of relations of the superior to the inferior.

The instance of Noah finding "favor" or grace" is paralleled to that of Moses (Gen 6:8, Ex 33:12).

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Exd 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

The whole idea portrayed in ALL of the derivatives of the word (hinnam, hin, hannun, hanina) all have to do with something given freely. The root word specifically means that. Some other examples given of the word-

Zec 4:7 Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Even here, where it is better translated "favor", it still does not have anything to do with "merited favor"-

Gen 39:21 But the LORD was with Joseph, and shewed him mercy, and gave him favour in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Here this favor was not merited by Joseph, rather it was God who caused the Jailer to "give Joseph favor", not anything within Joseph that demanded it, but because God had mercy and caused it.

Found in "Theological Workbook of the Old Testament", written by some of the most acclaimed Hebrew scholars, they translate Genesis 6:8 as well as Exodus 33:12 as Noah and Moses both finding GRACE in the sight of the Lord.

Van, you must admit that you are no Hebrew scholar, yet you are basing your entire argument on etymology that you know nothing about. Give it up, the proof is on the table now.

 

[beloved57]

Van - I have some startling news for you.

The Hebrew word used for "grace" or "favor" is "hen" or trans. "chen". It is a derivative of "hanan", which is lit. "I, be gracious; pity". It depicts a heartfelt response by one who has something to give to one who has need (i.e. God giving "grace" or "favor" to Noah). "hen" can be translated either "favor", "grace" or "charm". Out of its 69 occurances, it appears 43 times in the phrase "to find favor in the eyes of". It typically has the idea of relations of the superior to the inferior.

The instance of Noah finding "favor" or grace" is paralleled to that of Moses (Gen 6:8, Ex 33:12).

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Exd 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

The whole idea portrayed in ALL of the derivatives of the word (hinnam, hin, hannun, hanina) all have to do with something given freely. The root word specifically means that. Some other examples given of the word-

Zec 4:7 Who [art] thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel [thou shalt become] a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone [thereof with] shoutings, [crying], Grace, grace unto it.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Even here, where it is better translated "favor", it still does not have anything to do with "merited favor"-

Gen 39:21 But the LORD was with Joseph, and shewed him mercy, and gave him favour in the sight of the keeper of the prison.

Here this favor was not merited by Joseph, rather it was God who caused the Jailer to "give Joseph favor", not anything within Joseph that demanded it, but because God had mercy and caused it.

Found in "Theological Workbook of the Old Testament", written by some of the most acclaimed Hebrew scholars, they translate Genesis 6:8 as well as Exodus 33:12 as Noah and Moses both finding GRACE in the sight of the Lord.

Van, you must admit that you are no Hebrew scholar, yet you are basing your entire argument on etymology that you know nothing about. Give it up, the proof is on the table now.

even righteous lot knew it was by Gods grace and mercy..gen 19:

19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

 

[Epiphoskei]

And next, we have Epip's valid observation that Noah's salvic faith had to come after God told him something to believe. The whole point of the thread is that Noah found favor in the eyes of God before God told him to build the Ark.

Folks, wherever you see the phrase "found favor or grace in the eyes" of God or a person, it means the person had characteristics that God or the other person found favorable. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability is not supported by Genesis 6:5 in light of Genesis 6:8.

Again, you're not getting the problem this raises for you.

The chronology of events is favor/grace, followed by command to build ark, followed by noah's faith in God telling him he needs to build an ark, followed by his salvation through the waters by his faith.

The favor he recieved cannot be based on faith, since faith came after favor. Either somthing other than faith is the merit for favor, and we have Roman Catholicism, or the favor was merited by nothing within Noah at all, and we have Reformational Theology.

It is still Reformation or Rome.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

even righteous lot knew it was by Gods grace and mercy..gen 19:

19Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Just to add to your argument, the exact same derivative of the word is used in Genesis 19:19 as in 6:8.

 

[beloved57]

Just to add to your argument, the exact same derivative of the word is used in Genesis 19:19 as in 6:8.

I thought so, though i did not look it up, I just was using discernment from the Lord on His word..

 

[Van]

Epip, you are not getting it. I am tired of your efforts to sidetrack the thread. If you want to discuss RCC, start your own thread. Noah did not receive favor in Genesis 6:8, such as a beneficial blessing from God. This is your false doctrine. It is absurd and I think you know it, therefore your effort to change the subject again and again. Noah did nothing to merit God granting him grace, but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

Since Reformed Theology, as described by the TULI of the TULIP, is false, what we have is a conditional election of Noah, based on characteristics of Noah that God found favorable. God chose to favor them. They did not merit that favor. Got it??

 

[MamaZ]

Epip, you are not getting it. I am tired of your efforts to sidetrack the thread. If you want to discuss RCC, start your own thread. Noah did not receive favor in Genesis 6:8, such as a beneficial blessing from God. This is your false doctrine. It is absurd and I think you know it, therefore your effort to change the subject again and again. Noah did nothing to merit God granting him grace, but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

So basically you are saying here that Noah found grace from God because of something he did?

 

[Van]

No, that is completely wrong, but I expect you know that.

 

[MamaZ]

So then what are you saying.

 

[Van]

Read the OP

 

[beloved57]

but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

Thats not what the verse says..It says but noah found grace in the sight of God..grace means grace..

All the elect of God are found blameless in the sight of God by grace..

eph 1:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Noah was an elect in Jesus christ..

 

[Van]

Scripture say Noah found favor. You can translation shop till the cows come home, the Hebrew word as used in the context of found something in the eyes of another means favor, that some attribute or characteristic of the person was found favorable.

 

[frumanchu]

Scripture say Noah found favor. You can translation shop till the cows come home, the Hebrew word as used in the context of found something in the eyes of another means favor, that some attribute or characteristic of the person was found favorable.

SOME TRANSLATIONS of Scripture say Noah found favor. Van accuses people of translation shopping when he is guilty of the same.

 

[MamaZ]

but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

Blameless? How so?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Epip, you are not getting it. I am tired of your efforts to sidetrack the thread. If you want to discuss RCC, start your own thread. Noah did not receive favor in Genesis 6:8, such as a beneficial blessing from God. This is your false doctrine. It is absurd and I think you know it, therefore your effort to change the subject again and again. Noah did nothing to merit God granting him grace, but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

Since Reformed Theology, as described by the TULI of the TULIP, is false, what we have is a conditional election of Noah, based on characteristics of Noah that God found favorable. God chose to favor them. They did not merit that favor. Got it??

Tell me how this isn't a contradiction:

Noah did nothing to merit God granting him grace

vs.

but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

To find favor or grace is the same thing, as mentioned in post 62 of mine, I go through the etymology of the Hebrew word used here. And according to the first statement quoted, you have it right. But your second statement makes no sense in light of the first statement made. Noah did not find favor or grace with God because of anything other than God giving it to him as a gift. That's what grace is - something given to one who has need from one who has something to give, for no reason at all on the part of the receiver. Once it becomes based on something the receiver has done or for a quality found within, it ceases to be grace and then becomes a reward, or merit.

You are walking the fence, and this is simply a yes or no quesiton. Was merit involved in Noah's finding grace/favor or not? I say no. You have said both so far. Choose a side.

As far as this quote -

Since Reformed Theology, as described by the TULI of the TULIP, is false, what we have is a conditional election of Noah, based on characteristics of Noah that God found favorable.

God found characteristics favorable in Noah because He made Noah to be who he was. That is what unconditional election teaches - that before man did anything at all, God chose certain individuals because He had a special purpose of His to be fulfilled through them. He uses individuals to achieve His purposes, and the indivuals he uses are called out for no other reason than God's good pleasure. If this weren't the case, then why did God elect Israel (Jacob) over Esau before they were even born? Where is the merit or "favor" there? It isn't there; rather it was unconditional altogether.

Your argument that it was conditional on who Noah was is entirely missing the point. Noah was the person he was due to God's unconditional election of him. Noah was elected in eternity past, in the mind of God, to be shaped by The Potter to fulfill His purposes. Thus, God's choosing Noah based on Noah's character was not something caused by Noah, but by God Himself. God did the choosing, as well as the creating and shaping of Noah. Where is the merit? Where is the favor? It isn't there - it is a work of God alone.

Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

All merit due to the grace of God, for why else would we cast our crowns back at His feet? If Noah merited this favor, then he is able to say "this crown is mine an no one elses!"

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Blameless? How so?

The hebrew word has can mean that Noah was physically blameless, as many respectable scholars hold due to the previous mention of fallen angels (the sons of God) interbreeding with the daughters of men. The idea is that Noah's flesh and human physicality was untouched by the inpurity, and therefore made him a good candidate for repopulating the earth. That's the natural way it reads to me, because the flood isn't brought on specifically because of sin, but because of the interbreeding. Watch-

Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore {children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men of renown.

Many scholars believe that demons were trying to corrupt the mankind as a race entirely, because it would disable the solution of God to send a redeemer as promised at the fall. Thus God needed to wipe all of them off of the earth in order to get rid of the physical impurities.

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

If you noticed, the verse starts off with "then". Then is in reference to what was stated in the previous verse, about the interbreeding. God saw the wickedness and evil going on (the interbreeding) and decided-

Gen 6:7 ... "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

But then in comes Noah-

Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

That is, God chose Noah to stay alive and repopulate the earth because of this-

Gen 6:9 ...Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Noah was righteous, pure, and walked with God. So God chose Noah to repopulate the earth.

Van will have you believe it was merited. I say, all of the qualites that Noah possesses are only bestowed upon one by the grace of God in the first place. And according to this text, it seems that Noah was saved even before God decided to wipe man off the earth, which means God bestowed His grace upon Noah because God chose Noah in the first place to be who he was and to fulfill God's purposes, NOT because Noah was righteous on his own.

 

[beloved57]

Scripture say Noah found favor

Noah was a ole sinner saved by grace..

 

[Van]

Jesusfreak5000, to say 2 + 2 = 4 is not a contradiction. So say it is is absurd. Finding favor and receiving grace are two different things. To say they are the same thing is a contradiction. Now a person who finds favor might receive grace or not, that is up to God. To equate them is a contradiction.

Your assertion that Noah was made a man by irresistible grace contradicts Noah finding favor in the eyes of God. Something in the attributes or characteristics of Noah God found favorable to others of his generation. Therefore the false doctrine of total spiritual inability is not supported by Genesis 6:5 in light of Genesis 6:8.

All this extra-biblical speculation is not found in the text. And finally, note that I explicitly said Noah did not merit God's grace, yet the Calvinist posts "Van would have you believe it was merited." Folks, this is how Calvinists defend their false doctrine, with insults, misrepresentations, evasions, and changes of subject.

Bottom line, Total Spiritual Inability is not supported by Genesis 6:5 in light of Genesis 6:8 for Noah found favor in the eyes of God.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Epip, you are not getting it. I am tired of your efforts to sidetrack the thread. If you want to discuss RCC, start your own thread. Noah did not receive favor in Genesis 6:8, such as a beneficial blessing from God. This is your false doctrine. It is absurd and I think you know it, therefore your effort to change the subject again and again. Noah did nothing to merit God granting him grace, but Noah found favor in the eyes of God because he was blameless in his generation, a righteous man who walked with God.

Since Reformed Theology, as described by the TULI of the TULIP, is false, what we have is a conditional election of Noah, based on characteristics of Noah that God found favorable. God chose to favor them. They did not merit that favor. Got it??

No, you're just trying to squirm out of a problem you're in.

You have put favor before faith. That is completely incompatable with sola fide. Reformation or Rome Van, there is no third position.

The substance of your position is the RCC doctrine of merit, so I will point that out here, in this thread. RCC dogmas are often poorly understood in protestant circles, so it may not seem clear to you, but do some reading on merit and this is what you've got. Some intrinsic virtue which attracts God's favor, leading to salvation. That's Rome, van. If you want to become a Roman Catholic and come back with this verse taken your way, we'll discuss it with you, but it's kind of absurd to argue with a sola fide who's wielding a Merit interpretation as support for his views. Your argument is a serious contradiction.

Scripture say Noah found favor. You can translation shop till the cows come home, the Hebrew word as used in the context of found something in the eyes of another means favor, that some attribute or characteristic of the person was found favorable

Says the man who doesn't speak a word of Hebrew. Or apparently any other language, because you're using a basic fallacy in translation.

Words have large semantic meanings. Too large, usually, to be the final word in determining a passage's translation. Usage defines meaning, words do not have complecated, precice meaings in and of themselves outside of technical literature.

So, whatever favor does mean, you cannot import the idea "that some attribute or characteristic of the person was found favorable" into every use of the word. To asser that favor can mean that is fine. To assert that it always does shows a serious misunderstanding of words in general.