Did Noah find favor or grace?

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Van - what is context of Genesis 6?

Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore {children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men of renown.

What was the result?

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

and because of that...

Gen 6:7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

The context is that man was impure due to the "sons of god" coming into the daughters of men. Notice the distinction. I'm sure you are familiar with the view that "the sons of God" are fallen angels. I think this view is preferrable, as it gives meaning as to why God would blot man off of the earth entirely, that he might purify humanity and get rid of the incubus offspring.

The following verse supports this view:

Gen 6:9 These are {the records of} the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

blameless, coming from the Hebrew "tamiym"

1) complete, whole, entire, sound
a) complete, whole, entire
b) whole, sound, healthful
c) complete, entire (of time)
d) sound, wholesome, unimpaired, innocent, having integrity
e) what is complete or entirely in accord with truth and fact (neuter adj/subst)

The idea is completeness. While this immediately refers to his lifestyle, it also infers his physicallity - Noah was untainted by the interbreeding of demons with humans. Thus, Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord because he was physically pure, he was one who the Lord could use to repopulate the earth purely.

I am a calvinist and this is how I interpret "favor". I don't think your question has any bearing on calvinist vs. arminian doctrines (or any soteriological aspect), the context of the passage (IMO) is dealing with something entirely different.

 

[Van]

Here we have the true Calvinist argument presented: No verse precludes God's regeneration of Noah prior to the events described! No verse, folks precludes that God did not put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars either. Sound doctrine is based on what scripture says, not on what it does not preclude.

Bottom line, Genesis 6:8 demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine, because Noah found favor in the eyes of God due to him being a righteous person, seeking God and striving to obey God. God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. http://christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=47760426

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, thanks for accepting that Noah had characteristics that God found favorable, even if we disagree on which ones. Note that your view is actually based on the context of the passage, rather than trying to rewrite it because it negates Calvinist doctrine. But even your view avoids the obedience part, for Noah walked with God, and therefore to try and strip that out of the message misses the mark.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, thanks for accepting that Noah had characteristics that God found favorable, even if we disagree on which ones. Note that your view is actually based on the context of the passage, rather than trying to rewrite it because it negates Calvinist doctrine. But even your view avoids the obedience part, for Noah walked with God, and therefore to try and strip that out of the message misses the mark.

I didn't strip it out; there is nothing written about how Noah came to be a God fearing man. His favor with God was solely based on his purity, that he would be the one to repopulate the earth. Salvation is nowhere in sight in this passage and if you think it is then you are reading something into it that just isn't there. Nice try though...

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Here we have the true Calvinist argument presented: No verse precludes God's regeneration of Noah prior to the events described! No verse, folks precludes that God did not put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars either. Sound doctrine is based on what scripture says, not on what it does not preclude.

Bottom line, Genesis 6:8 demonstrates that Total Spiritual Inability is false doctrine, because Noah found favor in the eyes of God due to him being a righteous person, seeking God and striving to obey God. God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. http://christianforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=47760426

???

Are you kidding me?

This text has nothing to do with regeneration Van. Drop it.

But, if you want to discuss John 3:3 and how it proves regeneration prior to justification, I'd be happy to.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Noah found favor due to being a righteous person?

For pity sake, the text doesn't say so much as a single word to that effect. You just added that last part because you want it to say somthing helpful to your cause.

The text says he found favor/grace and it says nothing as to why. That is the bottom line.

But as I have said before, it is becoming clearer and clearer that there is Reformation and there is Rome, but there is nothing in between. If you want to say that Noah was offered a choice and found favor because he took it, that's one thing. But you have asserted more than once now that it was Noah's righteousness that caused him to recieve favor. That's Roman Catholicism. Now if you want to argue for Rome, we can argue that, but don't try to think you can spin this as supporting some kind of sola fide free will position.

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, why should I drop it? You said the verse does not say how Noah became a God fearing man. Therefore to say the reason is regeneration before faith is unwarranted. Noah was righteous and obedient when he found favor in the eyes of God. Therefore, the fact that "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was wicked" did not preclude him from striving to please God and the result was he found favor in the eyes of God. Noah was obedient, for he walked with God, a characteristic that found favor in the eyes of God.

And as far as the idea that he was regenerated, then the verse would not say he found favor, because the verse would then say Noah had received grace, which turned him into a righteous man. Not how the verse reads.

 

[beloved57]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, why should I drop it? You said the verse does not say how Noah became a God fearing man. Therefore to say the reason is regeneration before faith is unwarranted. Noah was righteous and obedient when he found favor in the eyes of God. Therefore, the fact that "every thought of the intent of his heart was wicked" did not preclude him from striving to please God and the result was he found favor in the eyes of God.

And as far as the idea that he was regenerated, then the verse would not say he found favor, because the verse would then say Noah had received grace, which turned him into a righteous man. Not how the verse reads.

gen 6:

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD

 

[Van]

More translation shopping to support false doctrine. Noah found favor in the eyes of God, for he was a righteous man. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

 

[frumanchu]

Here we have the true Calvinist argument presented: No verse precludes God's regeneration of Noah prior to the events described! No verse, folks precludes that God did not put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars either. Sound doctrine is based on what scripture says, not on what it does not preclude.

Here we have the true Anti-Calvinist argument presented. No verse in Scripture speaks anything about invisible pink elephants or Mars. There are, on the other hand, several verses in Scripture speaking explicitly or implicitly of regeneration. Thus the argument presented by the Anti-Calvinist is simply unsound, which is in keeping with the entire line of argumentation starting at the OP.

SSDP

 

[nobdysfool]

I see someone is back to the same old-same old. Nothing but agenda-driven puffery. Defeat Calvinism at any cost, no matter what, by falsehoods, false accusations, and blatant disregard for what scripture says and doesn't say.

The phrase, "found favor" is a figure of speech, for God choosing Noah to bless. Noah wasn't going around looking to curry favor with God, to the end of being saved. God chose Noah, and blessed him, and Noah was righteous by God's doing, not by Noah's doing. To argue that God chose Noah because Noah was already righteous is ludicrous, and against scripture. Noah's righteousness is sourced in God, not himself.

 

[Epiphoskei]

I notice van's still ignoring the Roman implications of his interpretation.

Van, you may be meaning to argue that Noah had "moral ability" and therefore was able to choose God and be saved, but in this case the implications are far, far beyond basic "free will." If Noah found favor because he was in and of himself virtuous and therefore he was saved, this is teaching salvation by merit, by works.

There is Rome and there is Reformation. There is not anything in between.

 

[beloved57]

More translation shopping to support false doctrine. Noah found favor in the eyes of God, for he was a righteous man. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God.

Gen 6:


8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. He did not deserve it..

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, why should I drop it? You said the verse does not say how Noah became a God fearing man. Therefore to say the reason is regeneration before faith is unwarranted.

Exactly! I'm not saying the reason is regeneration before faith. That isn't mentioned anywhere in the context. While I believe that view soteriologically (regeneration precedes faith), there is nothing written there that supports either your view nor mine. You are trying to negate that regeneration before justification is taught, and therefore your view must be correct. You argue from silence... you are in the same position we Calvinists are. There is nothing taught here soteriologically, so it proves neither view.

Noah was righteous and obedient when he found favor in the eyes of God. Therefore, the fact that "every intention of the thoughts of his heart was wicked" did not preclude him from striving to please God and the result was he found favor in the eyes of God. Noah was obedient, for he walked with God, a characteristic that found favor in the eyes of God.

No, I already gave you a great interpretation of this passage that puts it into context. Your's doesn't. You just assume that "favor" is in reference to how Noah acted before his salvation. Yet, nothing is said about when he was saved. There is not one line in this passage that says anything about when Noah came to know the Lord. If this is the case, then there is no way to prove that Noah's favor wasn't a product of his being regenerated and acting righteously. To your credit, there is also no proof that Noah was regenerated before he found "favor" with God. That is exactly my point; there is absolutely nothing mentioned about Noah prior to his finding faith in God, and therefore you cannot conclude whether he was already saved or not. There is no argument for either side.

I personally believe that Noah's favor wasn't so much in reference to his actions, but that he would be the best candidate to repopulate the earth after the flood, due to his purity from interelations with angels.

Also, I wouldn't agree with your interpretation that "every intention of the thoughts of" Noah's "heart was wicked", as you seem to include Noah in with that catergory, like he himself turned from it. While it may have been at one time, there is no reason why Noah could not have been saved prior to God's deciding to wipe out man. While it isn't written there, nothing disproves it from the context. Like I said before, there isn't anything here soteriologically. It isn't written one way or another, there are parts that are assumed. I think I can prove this.

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Now is this referring to ALL MEN all of the time, or is it referring to all men before there justification, specifically, all men apart from Noah?

Gen 6:6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

So Noah found favor. Why did Noah find favor? Because of the next verse!

Gen 6:9 These are {the records of} the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

That's why Noah found favor with God - he already walked with God, he was righteous and PHYSICALLY PURE. The reference to "blameless in his time" infers that Noah was a one of a kind during that time, which could exclude him from the previous verses, that Noah was part of the reason for God deciding to destroy man. Thus he found favor with God, that is, to repopulate the earth after all sinful men had been wiped out.

Context supports this view more than any other view in my opinion.

And as far as the idea that he was regenerated, then the verse would not say he found favor, because the verse would then say Noah had received grace, which turned him into a righteous man. Not how the verse reads.

Lol. You just aren't getting it... is it not possible that Noah had already been saved by grace through faith, and that this passage isn't mentioning anything soteriologically about Noah? Is it not possible that "favor" is in reference to God's choice in wanting Noah to repopulate the earth? That is the obvious context! God finds favor with Noah, and because of it Noah is chosen to live and repopulate the earth. That is so obvious from the context yet you keep trying to make this into some kind of proof passage for your belief. It's not at all, and in my opinion is a very weak argument.

 

[beloved57]

Exactly! I'm not saying the reason is regeneration before faith. That isn't mentioned anywhere in the context. While I believe that view soteriologically (regeneration precedes faith), there is nothing written there that supports either your view nor mine. You are trying to negate that regeneration before justification is taught, and therefore your view must be correct. You argue from silence... you are in the same position we Calvinists are. There is nothing taught here soteriologically, so it proves neither view.



No, I already gave you a great interpretation of this passage that puts it into context. Your's doesn't. You just assume that "favor" is in reference to how Noah acted before his salvation. Yet, nothing is said about when he was saved. There is not one line in this passage that says anything about when Noah came to know the Lord. If this is the case, then there is no way to prove that Noah's favor wasn't a product of his being regenerated and acting righteously. To your credit, there is also no proof that Noah was regenerated before he found "favor" with God. That is exactly my point; there is absolutely nothing mentioned about Noah prior to his finding faith in God, and therefore you cannot conclude whether he was already saved or not. There is no argument for either side.

I personally believe that Noah's favor wasn't so much in reference to his actions, but that he would be the best candidate to repopulate the earth after the flood, due to his purity from interelations with angels.

Also, I wouldn't agree with your interpretation that "every intention of the thoughts of" Noah's "heart was wicked", as you seem to include Noah in with that catergory, like he himself turned from it. While it may have been at one time, there is no reason why Noah could not have been saved prior to God's deciding to wipe out man. While it isn't written there, nothing disproves it from the context. Like I said before, there isn't anything here soteriologically. It isn't written one way or another, there are parts that are assumed. I think I can prove this.

Gen 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Now is this referring to ALL MEN all of the time, or is it referring to all men before there justification, specifically, all men apart from Noah?

Gen 6:6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Gen 6:7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."
Gen 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

So Noah found favor. Why did Noah find favor? Because of the next verse!

Gen 6:9 These are {the records of} the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

That's why Noah found favor with God - he already walked with God, he was righteous and PHYSICALLY PURE. The reference to "blameless in his time" infers that Noah was a one of a kind during that time, which could exclude him from the previous verses, that Noah was part of the reason for God deciding to destroy man. Thus he found favor with God, that is, to repopulate the earth after all sinful men had been wiped out.

Context supports this view more than any other view in my opinion.



Lol. You just aren't getting it... is it not possible that Noah had already been saved by grace through faith, and that this passage isn't mentioning anything soteriologically about Noah? Is it not possible that "favor" is in reference to God's choice in wanting Noah to repopulate the earth? That is the obvious context! God finds favor with Noah, and because of it Noah is chosen to live and repopulate the earth. That is so obvious from the context yet you keep trying to make this into some kind of proof passage for your belief. It's not at all, and in my opinion is a very weak argument.

Noah was sinner saved by grace, thats it..He was righteous because of the imputed righteousness of christ, like any other elect..The Just shall live by faith..not sinlessness..

 

[Van]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, I do not argue from silence, Noah found favor in the eyes of God means he had a one or more characteristics that God found favorable. If God had created these characteristics in him, then the verse would not say Noah found favor.

Jesusfreak5000, you cannot say your view puts the passage in context and then ignore that Noah was obedient. As I said, your mistaken view strips obedience out of the passage. All this "there is nothing that says when Noah was saved" simply denies the passage. Found favor indicates his characteristics before God made his covenant with him. Noah obtained approval through faith. And he had this characteristic before he found favor in the eyes of God. Its a lock.

Verse 6:5 refers to all men at the time, including Noah, but Noah found favor in the eyes of God. So even though Noah's heart was wicked, he strived to please God.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Noah was sinner saved by grace, thats it..He was righteous because of the imputed righteousness of christ, like any other elect..The Just shall live by faith..not sinlessness..

I agree... but I think you must admit that election must be read into the context just as Van is reading his beliefs into the text. It doesn't say anything about how Noah came to salvation. That must be assumed and then read into it. Thus this passage isn't a proof text for either view.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, I do not argue from silence, Noah found favor in the eyes of God means he had a one or more characteristics that God found favorable. If God had created these characteristics in him, then the verse would not say Noah found favor.

God found his physical purity favorable... how many times do I have to say that. Why was he physically pure? Because he was righteous and walked with God, therefore keeping himself from the defiling that was going on. That fits the context and does not negate the Calvinistic view of salvation. You can keep on refusing to accept it because you think you have it nailed, but in this case I have the better argument.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Hi Jesusfreak5000, I do not argue from silence, Noah found favor in the eyes of God means he had a one or more characteristics that God found favorable.

Here is a truth that modern westerners hate, somthing a friend of mine had to beat me over the head with a couple of months ago because it's so foreign: When you love a person you have to love the person, not things and characteristics and elements in the person. We as westerners have a quid-pro-quo perspective about love, affection, and favor, which is downright wicked. I would admonish you not to impute our "selfish love" to God.

And, since you've been ignoring my question, Van,

Rome or Reformation for you?

You're sliding further and further into Catholic dogma, and I'm fine discussing Catholic dogma as Catholic dogma, however what you are arguing is incompatable with anything remotely Protestant, Evangelical, or Sola Fide.

 

[Van]

Hi Epip, scripture not men says Noah found favor in the eyes of God. Play it where it is.
God gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Lean not on your own understanding.

And stop trying to change the subject of the thread, introducing red herrings like Catholic dogma.