Did Mary have a savior?

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It wouldn't be the same ark spoken of in heaven as that was the tabernacle ark.

St. Proclus (died 446 or 447)

“Let the woman haste hither, for the woman shows not the tree of death, but brings forth the tree of life: the virgins...the mothers also, for the Virgin Mother has amended the tree of disobedience by the tree of life. The female sex is no longer in execration, for it has obtained whereby it shall surpass even the angels in glory. Eve has been healed...and Mary is venerated (adored), because she has become mother and handmaid, cloud and chamber, and ark of the Lord....For this cause let us say to her: Blessed art thou amongst women, who alone hast healed the grief of Eve; who alone hast borne the world’s price” (Orat.iv.and v. In Natal. Dom. P.G. Tom. 65, p.710) (BlessedVirgin, p. 58

Chrysippus

“An ark truly royal, an ark most precious is the ever-Virgin Mother of God, an ark which received the treasure of entire sanctification. Not that ark wherein were all kinds of animals, as in the ark of Noe, which escaped the shipwreck of the whole drowning world. Not that ark in which were the tables of stone, as in the ark that journeyed in company with Israel throughout the desert; but an ark whose architect and inhabitant, pilot and merchant, companion of the way, and leader, was the Creator of all creatures, all which He bears in Himself, but by all is not contained” (Chrysippus, Orat. de laudib. Deip. (Blessed Virgin, p. 74)

St. Cyril (315-387?)

“The Ark would be the type and image of Christ : for if we look back to the way of the Incarnation of the Only-begotten, we shall see that it is in the temple of the Virgin, as in an ark that the Word of God took up His abode. For in Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, as the Scripture saith. But the testimonies in the ark were the word of God, and the wood of it was imperishable, and with pure and choicest gold was it beautified within and without” (St. Cyril, De ador. In Spir. Et Verit, p. 293, St. Maximus of Turin and other Fathers apply the Ark of the Covenant to the Blessed Virgin Mary) (Blessed Virgin, p. 76).

 

[lismore]

We believe that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant.

Is this the official doctrine of the Catholic Church?

 

[Aldebaran]

Is this the official doctrine of the Catholic Church?

Or in any way supported by scripture?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Or in any way supported by scripture?

To address your first question, this is the only reference to the doctrine in the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria:

Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: the greeting of the angel Gabriel opens this prayer. It is God himself who, through his angel as intermediary, greets Mary. Our prayer dares to take up this greeting to Mary with the regard God had for the lowliness of his humble servant and to exult in the joy he finds in her.

Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men." Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham, because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

To answer your second question, no.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Is this the official doctrine of the Catholic Church?

I don't think it's doctrine, but it is recommended to believe.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Or in any way supported by scripture?

We believe that it is supported by the book of Revelation. In Chapter 12, Mary appears in the sky with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars. Later on, suddenly, the new Ark touches Earth.
But stop and think about it. What was contained in the original Ark of the Covenant? The Word of God, the Staff of Aaron (symbolizing the priesthood), and Manna (the bread of life). Mary contained all of these things in her when she was with child.

 

[Aldebaran]

We believe that it is supported by the book of Revelation. In Chapter 12, Mary appears in the sky with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars. Later on, suddenly, the new Ark touches Earth.
But stop and think about it. What was contained in the original Ark of the Covenant? The Word of God, the Staff of Aaron (symbolizing the priesthood), and Manna (the bread of life). Mary contained all of these things in her when she was with child.

Where does it say this?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Where does it say this?

It wasn't 'later on' it was prior in Revelation 11:19. IT flows directly into Mary's appearance in Revelation 12:1-3.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't think it's doctrine, but it is recommended to believe.

It is doctrine. Please see my post where I quote the paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It is doctrine. Please see my post where I quote the paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

OK. So what?

 

[lismore]

I don't think it's doctrine, but it is recommended to believe.

'Recommended to believe'. That's a curious turn of phrase Jesse.

 

[Root of Jesse]

'Recommended to believe'. That's a curious turn of phrase Jesse.

Well, it's true, just like what is said about any Marian apparition. You don't have to believe it, but it's recommended. Sorry you don't like it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

OK. So what?

Simply that this is not merely a pious opinion that is recommended to believe, but a doctrine (teaching) of the Catholic Church.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If mary did indeed need a savior as Catholicism teaches, why then is it necessary that she be sinless?

Mary did indeed need a savior, as the Catholic Church teaches and Scripture clearly states. It is not considered 'necessary' that she be sinless but 'fitting'. It was fitting that the mother of Jesus be the best possible person to love him and raise him and teach him and pray with him. Less fitting would be a sinful mother raising him less well. Fitting and not necessary. It was not necessary for Mary to be sinless so that Jesus could be sinless. God had other experience making sinless people, Adam and Eve, so certainly Jesus could be sinless without a sinless mother. But just as God had experience making other sinless people, Adam and Eve, He could make Mary sinless if it was fitting. And Joseph quite holy too.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The bottom line is, regardless of how one chooses to spin one's argument, a person cannot be saved unless they are a sinner. If Mary had a savior, as we all seem to agree on, then she was a sinner and, therefore, not perpetually sinless.

You can save me by pulling me out of my predicament after I have fallen into it. You can also save me by diverting me from falling into the predicament. In both cases I am saved. An example would be the I-35 bridge collapse. Several people were on that bridge when it collapsed. Most of them were actually saved by the heroic work of civilians and trained emergency teams. I was not on that bridge at the time, but I had crossed that bridge hundreds of times and was going to go that way again. But a bunch of road signs and blockades prevented me from going that way and crashing into the water far below. I was saved from falling. Other people fell and were saved after falling.

Bottom line is there are at least two ways to save a person. After having fallen, and before an inevitable fall. Mary was indeed saved, but from an inevitable fall. She rightfully rejoices in God her savior.

 

[FireDragon76]

We believe that it is supported by the book of Revelation. In Chapter 12, Mary appears in the sky with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars. Later on, suddenly, the new Ark touches Earth.
But stop and think about it. What was contained in the original Ark of the Covenant? The Word of God, the Staff of Aaron (symbolizing the priesthood), and Manna (the bread of life). Mary contained all of these things in her when she was with child.

That is an interesting notion but most Protestants would understand the woman to be Israel as the most obvious meaning of the sign. However, Mary also represents the faithful remnant of Israel, as well.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You can save me by pulling me out of my predicament after I have fallen into it. You can also save me by diverting me from falling into the predicament. In both cases I am saved. An example would be the I-35 bridge collapse. Several people were on that bridge when it collapsed. Most of them were actually saved by the heroic work of civilians and trained emergency teams. I was not on that bridge at the time, but I had crossed that bridge hundreds of times and was going to go that way again. But a bunch of road signs and blockades prevented me from going that way and crashing into the water far below. I was saved from falling. Other people fell and were saved after falling.

Bottom line is there are at least two ways to save a person. After having fallen, and before an inevitable fall. Mary was indeed saved, but from an inevitable fall. She rightfully rejoices in God her savior.

Was Mary capable of sin? If so, then your argument could be valid. If not, then your argument falls flat.

Adam and Eve were capable of sin, as evidenced by the fact that they did sin and were, therefore, in need of a savior. Prior to the Fall, the presence of the tree in the Garden did nothing at all to save them, nor did God who put it there.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Was Mary capable of sin? If so, then your argument could be valid. If not, then your argument falls flat.

Adam and Eve were capable of sin, as evidenced by the fact that they did sin and were, therefore, in need of a savior. Prior to the Fall, the presence of the tree in the Garden did nothing at all to save them, nor did God who put it there.

I imagine Mary was capable of sin just like Adam and Eve were capable of sin. Was Jesus capable of sin? We know Satan tempted Him. That suggests that He too was capable of sin. Does being capable of sin mean that one must sin?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I imagine Mary was capable of sin just like Adam and Eve were capable of sin. Was Jesus capable of sin? We know Satan tempted Him. That suggests that He too was capable of sin. Does being capable of sin mean that one must sin?

Now we enter into the doctrine of divine impeccability, which has mired far too many people in various errors. It is like that standard puzzler - If God can do everything, could he make an object so large that He cannot move it?

To assert that any mortal is impeccable as Jesus Christ was is a very significant error.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Now we enter into the doctrine of divine impeccability, which has mired far too many people in various errors. It is like that standard puzzler - If God can do everything, could he make an object so large that He cannot move it?

To assert that any mortal is impeccable as Jesus Christ was is a very significant error.

Adam was created sinless. Eve was created sinless. They fell. They didn't have to, but chose it. Mary was preserved from sin at her birth and did not sin. She likely had the freedom to sin, just as Adam and Eve did.

Jesus was sinless. Humanly speaking he could have sinned as he was fully human, but being fully God as well, that wasn't going to happen. He was tempted, and it was a real temptation.

His situation was of a different order than Mary's, as he was God and she was not.

Impeccability is not the defining attribute of Jesus. It is sonship which defines him, being the Eternal Son of the Father. That's who he is. Impeccability is small potatoes compared to that. If impeccability was so important then Adam and Eve would have been gods.