Did Jesus set the law aside at the Bethesda pool?

[LoveGodsWord]

I have debated Adventists for years on this subject. Eventually they just put me on HIDE. I don't need your help, and I am hoping to avoid dragging you through all of my explanations. And no, I didn't read every word of your copy/past tome of a post. And I am not obligated to answer your questions. You speak for a denomination. I do not answer to your denomination. You have no authority over me.

If you want to continue, then one question at a time, and your OWN words, not a bunch of copy/paste canned apologetics. And we should stay on topic.

Hello Steve,

Thanks for being honest. I did not think you read the posts the way you were responding.

I guess from your response you have no answer to my posts, scriptures and questions asked of you, especially if you did not read the earlier posts?

Sorry, as it seems these posts have upset you in some way? BTW, all my posts are the result of my own bible study and time with Jesus, not some cut and paste canned apolagetics as you say.

It is ok you do not need to respond to these posts, questions and scriptures in them that disagree with your teachings if you do not wish to. We all answer only to God come judgment day.

At the very least these post should give you something to think about. Perhaps you can pray about it further at home, no need to go any further here if you do not wish to.

Good night my friend nice talking to you (late my time).

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hello Steve,

I guess from your response you have no answer to my posts, scriptures and questions asked of you? Sorry, as it seems my posts have upset you in some way? BTW, all my posts are the result of my own bible study, not some cut and paste canned apolagetics as you say.

It is ok you do not need to answer any posts, questions and scriptures in them that disagree with your teachings if you do not wish to. We all answer only to God come judgment day.

If you cannot perhaps you can pray about it at home

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

I definitely have answers. That's the point.

Just trying to avoid two dozen off-topic posts back and forth that end where this discussion always ends, at an impasse. I have zero interest in what you have to say on the subject. I could probably write it for you, at least in summary. (not that I want to)

Why drag each other through what we both already know? Do I need to quote the writings of the early church for you? Do I need to inform you of the writing dates of those books and when they happened in relationship to the NT canon? Do I need to put up with your attempts to limit sources in the debate? Been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt. No need to revisit it again. No thanks.

 

[Ken Rank]

Alright. It's a new day, I can address this now. Happy Sabbath day to you.
I was ready to land on you with both boots last evening. I had to restrain myself.

You ask a great question. I'll be honest. I don't why God rested on the seventh day. I'm left with more questions than answers. Like...

- Who knew about this before God told Moses?

- If the Sabbath was from the beginning, why is there no evidence of anyone observing the Sabbath before Exodus chapter sixteen?

Nowhere before Exodus chapter 16 do we find biblical evidence of any human:
- observing the sabbath.
- preparing for the sabbath.
- adjusting their plans to account for the sabbath.
- teaching anyone else to observe the sabbath.
- extolling the virtues of the sabbath.
- being criticized for not observing the sabbath.

- Furthermore, there is no evidence of a Sabbath-keeping church in the NT. Quite the contrary actually. (first day of the week references)

- The seventh day of the creation week was only the second day of the week for Adam and Eve. Did they rest prior to six days of work?

- Apparently God never took another Sabbath. (a point which we seem to agree on) Is that the example we are following?

John 5:17
In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

The bottom line.
I think the Sabbath points to the creation week, not the other way around. The Sabbath was (in Ex.20) because God created and rested. In Ex.16 it was related to the gathering of manna. In preparation for the commandment to continue doing so in Ex.20.

Do you want real answers for the first day of the week verses? You do understand I have spent years working this out, right? I have answers... like Paul teaching late into the night on the first day of the week? That isn't what you think it is, not at all. I would be happy to share if you're interested.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Saint Steven]

Do you want real answers for the first day of the week verses? You do understand I have spent years working this out, right? I have answers... like Paul teaching late into the night on the first day of the week? That isn't what you think it is, not at all. I would be happy to share if you're interested.

Blessings.
Ken

If your answers are "real" what are you trying to say about my answers? I have spent years working on this as well.

No thanks. You can keep your "real" answers until you have an attitude adjustment.

Romans 14:4-5
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

 

[Ken Rank]

If your answers are "real" what are you trying to say about my answers? I have spent years working on this as well.

No thanks. You can keep your "real" answers until you have an attitude adjustment.

Romans 14:4-5
Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

Steven... we've talked for weeks both in open forum and privately. Not once has either one of us said anything demeaning toward the other, even when we disagreed completely. Why then would you assume almost evil in what I said, and not even consider that I didn't mean it the way you took it? I certainly did not mean that YOU aren't giving real answers or that somehow your conclusions are of a value less than mine. All I meant was, that if you are willing to hear out answers that are dealing with 1st century culture in a way you have not yet heard, I would be happy to share them. For example...

Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

So, be honest... do you read Sunday here? It is, but it also isn't. You see, the biblical day begins and ends at sundown. So, if it was dark on the first day of the week... that is Saturday night. Saturday at sun down ends the Sabbath... Sunday at sun down isn't the first day of the week anymore. Therefore... the gathering was on Saturday night, this meal is called a "havdallah" service which is an end of Sabbath meal and time of prayer for the week ahead. It is customary when people come together that there would be a reading or a teaching and in this case, Paul had the floor... on what we call Saturday night.

So, is this a mandate to keep the first day of the week? No... it is actually just a Jewish tradition to meet at the end of the Sabbath for a meal and a talk.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven... we've talked for weeks both in open forum and privately. Not once has either one of us said anything demeaning toward the other, even when we disagreed completely. Why then would you assume almost evil in what I said, and not even consider that I didn't mean it the way you took it? I certainly did not mean that YOU aren't giving real answers or that somehow your conclusions are of a value less than mine. All I meant was, that if you are willing to hear out answers that are dealing with 1st century culture in a way you have not yet heard, I would be happy to share them. For example...

Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

So, be honest... do you read Sunday here? It is, but it also isn't. You see, the biblical day begins and ends at sundown. So, if it was dark on the first day of the week... that is Saturday night. Saturday at sun down ends the Sabbath... Sunday at sun down isn't the first day of the week anymore. Therefore... the gathering was on Saturday night, this meal is called a "havdallah" service which is an end of Sabbath meal and time of prayer for the week ahead. It is customary when people come together that there would be a reading or a teaching and in this case, Paul had the floor... on what we call Saturday night.

So, is this a mandate to keep the first day of the week? No... it is actually just a Jewish tradition to meet at the end of the Sabbath for a meal and a talk.

Most of the examples in the Bible do not use what you call a biblical day, taken from the creation week. Here's but one example.

Acts 2:15 KJV
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Acts 2:15 NIV
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

 

[Ken Rank]

Most of the examples in the Bible do not use what you call a biblical day, taken from the creation week. Here's but one example.

Acts 2:15 KJV
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

Acts 2:15 NIV
15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning!

In the bible, the day begins at sundown, there is "never" a time when this isn't the case. And if you desire, you are welcome to get any source you want to prove otherwise. As for your example.... the word yom in Hebrew (and the Greek counterpart) like every word, have more than one meaning. A day can be a 24 hour period, or, ANY PART of that same 24 hour period. Also, it can be the day time... as it is in Acts 2. The 3rd hour of the day is 9:00am.... when you are using the word "day" in reference to daytime... i.e. when the sun is out. These are first century Jews in the ancient near east... not English speaking westerners who keep time by Apple watches.

 

[Saint Steven]

In the bible, the day begins at sundown, there is "never" a time when this isn't the case. And if you desire, you are welcome to get any source you want to prove otherwise. As for your example.... the word yom in Hebrew (and the Greek counterpart) like every word, have more than one meaning. A day can be a 24 hour period, or, ANY PART of that same 24 hour period. Also, it can be the day time... as it is in Acts 2. The 3rd hour of the day is 9:00am.... when you are using the word "day" in reference to daytime... i.e. when the sun is out. These are first century Jews in the ancient near east... not English speaking westerners who keep time by Apple watches.

The biblical day begins at sunup, not sundown. I just showed you in Acts chapter two.
Here's another one.

Matthew 20:1-7 KJV
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

 

[Ken Rank]

The biblical day begins at sunup, not sundown. I just showed you in Acts chapter two.
Here's another one.

Matthew 20:1-7 KJV
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

Steven, there is no historical basis at all for the biblical day beginning at sunrise. The Greeks and Romans began it that way, the Jews did not. We have EXTENSIVE writings from that time period and nothing supports your claim.

So... you are welcome to believe whatever you want. But do me a favor... can you tell me what time of day Yeshua died? If you looked at our clock, what time was it?

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven, there is no historical basis at all for the biblical day beginning at sunrise. The Greeks and Romans began it that way, the Jews did not. We have EXTENSIVE writings from that time period and nothing supports your claim.

So... you are welcome to believe whatever you want. But do me a favor... can you tell me what time of day Yeshua died? If you looked at our clock, what time was it?

I'm not claiming that ALL biblical days begin at sunrise. But I gave you two biblical examples of some that did. There are likely more.

What are you claiming about the time Christ died?

 

[Ken Rank]

I'm not claiming that ALL biblical days begin at sunrise. But I gave you two biblical examples of some that did. There are likely more.

What are you claiming about the time Christ died?

All they are saying in Acts 2:15 is that it was the 3rd hour of DAYTIME... the time the sun is out. Anyway...

John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Passover isn't a High Sabbath, it is the 14th day of Nissan and the day all the lambs were offered and was the day Yeshua died. He died at 3:00PM, the 9th hour of the day. The Jews asked Pilate to break their legs because, when the sun went down, the Sabbath (a High Sabbath by the way, the 15th of Nissan which is the first day of Unleavened Bread) would begin. So had he not died when he did, they would have broken his legs to expedite the death so that they could have him down and buried before Sabbath began... which was at sunset... the 12th hour. Two 12 hour segments... all combined - a day. Or just the 12 daylight hours - a day. The word "day" has more than one meaning. NO JEWISH PERSON would have considered sunrise to be the beginning of a new calendar day. No Sabbath starts at sunrise, no Feast starts at sunrise... none.

But I will let it go at that. No reason to upset you and this discussion clearly has.

Be well.
Ken

 

[Saint Steven]

All they are saying in Acts 2:15 is that it was the 3rd hour of DAYTIME... the time the sun is out. Anyway...

John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Passover isn't a High Sabbath, it is the 14th day of Nissan and the day all the lambs were offered and was the day Yeshua died. He died at 3:00PM, the 9th hour of the day. The Jews asked Pilate to break their legs because, when the sun went down, the Sabbath (a High Sabbath by the way, the 15th of Nissan which is the first day of Unleavened Bread) would begin. So had he not died when he did, they would have broken his legs to expedite the death so that they could have him down and buried before Sabbath began... which was at sunset... the 12th hour. Two 12 hour segments... all combined - a day. Or just the 12 daylight hours - a day. The word "day" has more than one meaning. NO JEWISH PERSON would have considered sunrise to be the beginning of a new calendar day. No Sabbath starts at sunrise, no Feast starts at sunrise... none.

But I will let it go at that. No reason to upset you and this discussion clearly has.

Be well.
Ken

I have never claimed that the Sabbath does not go from sundown to sundown. I'm only saying the days start at sunrise. Per the two examples given. And to get back to the point, that's when the first day of the week gathering in Acts 20 happened. Early in the day, as opposed to after sundown.

 

[Ken Rank]

I have never claimed that the Sabbath does not go from sundown to sundown. I'm only saying the days start at sunrise. Per the two examples given.

I don't understand what you are saying then. If the Sabbath DAY is a day, and it begins at sundown... then only the Sabbath DAY begins at sundown and all the rest of the days begin at sunrise? And since Sabbath is 24 hours... doesn't it have to end at sundown... but then we have a 12 hour void until the next day begins?

A "day" can begin at sunrise Steve...but only the DAY TIME of the day. A day is 24 hours and it begins at sundown in the bible, every time.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't understand what you are saying then. If the Sabbath DAY is a day, and it begins at sundown... then only the Sabbath DAY begins at sundown and all the rest of the days begin at sunrise? And since Sabbath is 24 hours... doesn't it have to end at sundown... but then we have a 12 hour void until the next day begins?

A "day" can begin at sunrise Steve...but only the DAY TIME of the day. A day is 24 hours and it begins at sundown in the bible, every time.

Please show me a biblical example of any day outside the creation week that is not a Sabbath that begins at sundown. Thanks.

 

[Ken Rank]

Please show me a biblical example of any day outside the creation week that is not a Sabbath that begins at sundown. Thanks.

John 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

It was still dark... this means that if you are correct, this was what we call Sunday night. If I am correct it is what we call early Sunday morning before sunrise. If I am correct.... it was already the first day of the week BEFORE the sun came up. If you are correct... Yeshua's open tomb went all of the day light hours on Sunday without being seen and it wasn't noticed that he was gone until Sunday night... and because it says "it was STILL DARK" it is inferring near morning which means your timing has the tomb being found empty perhaps as late as early (what we call) Monday morning.

 

[Saint Steven]

John 20:1 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.

It was still dark... this means that if you are correct, this was what we call Sunday night. If I am correct it is what we call early Sunday morning before sunrise. If I am correct.... it was already the first day of the week BEFORE the sun came up. If you are correct... Yeshua's open tomb went all of the day light hours on Sunday without being seen and it wasn't noticed that he was gone until Sunday night... and because it says "it was STILL DARK" it is inferring near morning which means your timing has the tomb being found empty perhaps as late as early (what we call) Monday morning.

It says, the first day of the week, early, while it was still dark. Meaning before sunrise. After sunset would be after it had become dark. Morning would be while it was still dark. (not yet light) Meaning before sunrise.

You have not proved a day outside the creation week that is not a Sabbath that begins at sundown. Try again, or give it up.

--- EDIT ---

Here are the synoptic texts for comparison. And a text from John about the evening of the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week,
just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

Mark 16:9
When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week,
he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Luke 24:1
On the first day of the week, very early in the morning,
the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone
had been removed from the entrance.

- compare -

John 20:19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together,
with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders,
Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

 

[Ken Rank]

It says, the first day of the week, early, while it was still dark. Meaning before sunrise. After sunset would be after it had become dark. Morning would be while it was still dark. (not yet light) Meaning before sunrise.

You have not proved a day outside the creation week that is not a Sabbath that begins at sundown. Try again, or give it up.

--- EDIT ---

Here are the synoptic texts for comparison. And a text from John about the evening of the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

Mark 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week,
just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb

Mark 16:9
When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week,
he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Luke 24:1
On the first day of the week, very early in the morning,
the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

John 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone
had been removed from the entrance.

- compare -

John 20:19
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together,
with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders,
Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

If it was still dark then sunrise did not yet happen and they already called it the first day. Therefore, the day had to change in the night, not at sunrise because sunrise had not happened yet.

That is how I see it... you are welcome to see it otherwise. See you on another topic, on another day.

Shalom.
Ken

 

[Ken Rank]

Matthew 28:1
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

This will be my last post in this thread. The above verse is an example of not understanding the culture in which THEY lived. Please do NOT think I just said something negative about you... I am speaking about Christianity in general. Allow me to explain...

Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre (Young's Literal)

Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave. (Literal Version of the Bible)

Matthew 28:1 In the eve of the shabbaths, as it begins to dawn to the first of the shabbaths, Miryam the Magdalene and the other Miryam go to observe the tomb.

Obviously I went to through the trouble of making bold the word Sabbaths and making sure you saw it in plural form. Why? Because it is in plural form in Greek. To understand this verse, one needs some background.

Lev 23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.

The 14th is Passover and that was the day Yeshua died. It was 3:00PM, we know a Sabbath was coming because of John 19:31, and the Sabbath that was coming was NOT the weekly Sabbath, it was a High Sabbath, a day no work is done because it is a feast day, in this case, the first day of Unleavened Bread. By the way, the first day of Unleavened bread was the 15th. The 16th appears to be the weekly Sabbath the year Yeshua was killed, and the 17th was the day the tomb was found empty.

Question... what significance is there about the day after the weekly Sabbath during Unleavened Bread?

Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Yeshua was waved before the Father and this is what that points to... but regardless, it was the day after the weekly Sabbath. And what else happens then?

Lev 23:15 'And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed.
Lev 23:16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.

You would begin the count of 7 Sabbaths which equals 49, and the day after the 7th Sabbath, day 50... is what? Pentecost, a word that means "count 50."

Paraphrase/commentary for Matthew 28:1

On the eve of the SabbathS (the 7 you count leading to Pentecost), as it began to dawn on the first of the SabbathS/Weeks (that are to be counted), the tomb was found empty. So on resheit omer, first fruits (the first of first fruits since technically Pentecost is also first fruits) OUR FIRST FRUITS, the first to raise from the dead... had his tomb found empty.

Steven, you are picking through Matthew 28:1 (as do many Christians) trying to find a mandate for Sunday worship, no Sabbath, whatever... and the verse has NOTHING to do with ANY OF THAT! In fact, if anything... it is telling you by example of what they did that YOU should be counting the Sabbaths that lead to the day the Spirit was poured out and our mission officially began. But no... these beautiful pictures given to us by God become things that are mocked rather than embraced and learned from. Why keep starting posts that create division about God's commandments and law and feasts and all that... and instead start some threads where they can be discussed to see if there isn't really something there God can use to teach us all?

All that said... this really was my last post in this thread.

Be blessed.

 

[Saint Steven]

This will be my last post in this thread. The above verse is an example of not understanding the culture in which THEY lived. Please do NOT think I just said something negative about you... I am speaking about Christianity in general. Allow me to explain...

Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre (Young's Literal)

Matthew 28:1 But late in the sabbaths, at the dawning into the first of the sabbaths, Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary came to gaze upon the grave. (Literal Version of the Bible)

Matthew 28:1 In the eve of the shabbaths, as it begins to dawn to the first of the shabbaths, Miryam the Magdalene and the other Miryam go to observe the tomb.

Obviously I went to through the trouble of making bold the word Sabbaths and making sure you saw it in plural form. Why? Because it is in plural form in Greek. To understand this verse, one needs some background.

Lev 23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the Lord's Passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.

The 14th is Passover and that was the day Yeshua died. It was 3:00PM, we know a Sabbath was coming because of John 19:31, and the Sabbath that was coming was NOT the weekly Sabbath, it was a High Sabbath, a day no work is done because it is a feast day, in this case, the first day of Unleavened Bread. By the way, the first day of Unleavened bread was the 15th. The 16th appears to be the weekly Sabbath the year Yeshua was killed, and the 17th was the day the tomb was found empty.

Question... what significance is there about the day after the weekly Sabbath during Unleavened Bread?

Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Yeshua was waved before the Father and this is what that points to... but regardless, it was the day after the weekly Sabbath. And what else happens then?

Lev 23:15 'And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed.
Lev 23:16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the Lord.

You would begin the count of 7 Sabbaths which equals 49, and the day after the 7th Sabbath, day 50... is what? Pentecost, a word that means "count 50."

Paraphrase/commentary for Matthew 28:1

On the eve of the SabbathS (the 7 you count leading to Pentecost), as it began to dawn on the first of the SabbathS/Weeks (that are to be counted), the tomb was found empty. So on resheit omer, first fruits (the first of first fruits since technically Pentecost is also first fruits) OUR FIRST FRUITS, the first to raise from the dead... had his tomb found empty.

Steven, you are picking through Matthew 28:1 (as do many Christians) trying to find a mandate for Sunday worship, no Sabbath, whatever... and the verse has NOTHING to do with ANY OF THAT! In fact, if anything... it is telling you by example of what they did that YOU should be counting the Sabbaths that lead to the day the Spirit was poured out and our mission officially began. But no... these beautiful pictures given to us by God become things that are mocked rather than embraced and learned from. Why keep starting posts that create division about God's commandments and law and feasts and all that... and instead start some threads where they can be discussed to see if there isn't really something there God can use to teach us all?

All that said... this really was my last post in this thread.

Be blessed.

Just to be clear. I am NOT "trying to find a mandate for Sunday worship". I do not believe that we are obligated to ANY day.

I'm, glad that you are convinced in your own mind. I respect that.
And I expect the same from you toward me. Thanks.

Romans 14:5
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.

 

[Soyeong]

In this gospel account (text below) of the healing at the Bethesda pool, Jesus commands the man to, "Pick up your mat and walk." In obeying Christ, the man broke Sabbath law. No load is to be carried on the Sabbath. Jesus could have asked the man to rise up and walk. Why did he include the mat carrying?

Notice that the gospel writer adds the note that the day on which this took place was a Sabbath. Why is this significant? There is no dispute in the passage that this was not a violation of Sabbath law.

Was the law set aside when Jesus commanded this act of Sabbath-breaking?

John 5:8-11
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.”
9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,
10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed,
“It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”
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Jeremiah 17:21-22
This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem.
22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.

In Luke 14:5, Jesus expected that if we have a child or an ox that falls in a ditch on the Sabbath that we should get them out, so keeping the Sabbath is not about trying to avoid moving a muscle, but having a day dedicated to being focused on God's love for us as a community of believers. Preparation for the Sabbath is an important of keeping it, where we get all of the things that can done ahead of time to get them out of the way so that they don't serve as distractions. So the issue isn't so much with carrying a load on the Sabbath as it is with the reason why someone is carrying a load. It's all about the condition of our hearts. Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so all of the commands are examples of how we are to love and no command was intended to prevent us from loving God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus ruled that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:12).