Why did Jesus instruct a healed man to break the Sabbath?

trophy33

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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)

"...they tried all the more to kill him [Jesus]; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God"
J 5:18 (NIV)

The carrying of the mat was not necessary for the healing or walking.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)
Mostly that law was regarding commerce. However, did Yeshua, being The Lord of Shabbat and a Rabbi give the healed man an Eruv?
 
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trophy33

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Mostly that law was regarding commerce.
Not according to actual Jews, as seen in the text.

However, did Yeshua, being The Lord of Shabbat and a Rabbi give the healed man an Eruv?
I do not understand your English. Anyway, the OP question is "why". Why did Jesus instruct the healed man to do what was not allowed to do on sabbaths. The carrying of the mat was not necessary for anything.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Not according to actual Jews, as seen in the text.


I do not understand your English. Anyway, the OP question is "why". Why did Jesus instruct the healed man to do what was not allowed to do on sabbaths. The carrying of the mat was not necessary for anything.
You accept their ruling? They were wrong many times in this as well as the grain eating incident on shabbat. How do you know it was not necessary? It was all he owned, his sole possession. He was laying there for 38 years! Yeshua said: "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working. For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." Doing good works on Shabbat is not against Torah. What English do you not understand?
 
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trophy33

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You accept their ruling? They were wrong many times in this as well as the grain eating incident on shabbat.
Jesus said to accept their ruling. The Law and prophets were given for/to them, anyway. Who else should interpret it? Also, Jesus would know that carrying a mat was not allowed in their culture.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.
Mt 23:2-3 (NIV)

Your interpretation that the mat was too important to be left behind does not feel right. The man could stay a day on that place, even after he was able to walk, if he was so emotionally attached to a mat. It was no emergency.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Jesus said to accept their ruling. Also, Jesus would know that carrying a mat was not allowed in their culture.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.
Mt 23:2-3 (NIV)

Your interpretation that the mat was too important to be left behind does not feel right.
No, He said to follow what Moshe said to do IF that is what they teach, but don't do what they do. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Yeshua called them hypocrites!
 
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trophy33

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No, He said to follow what Moshe said to do IF that is what they teach, but don't do what they do. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Yeshua called them hypocrites!
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ‘Rabbi’ by which they are addressed.

Mt 23 (NIV)

Jesus said to obey their teachings, but not to follow their practice (not keeping their own words and liking the worldly fame).
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ‘Rabbi’ by which they are addressed.

Mt 23 (NIV)

Jesus said to obey their teachings, but not to follow their practice (not keeping their own words and liking the worldly fame).
Would Yeshua teach to obey them if they did not teach Torah correctly? You are not understanding the context of the passage at all.
 
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trophy33

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You are not understanding the context of the passage at all.
Its just your opinion, the text says to obey whatever they taught. But its getting off topic - the question is why did Jesus instruct the man to carry a mat on sabbath.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Its just your opinion, the text says to obey whatever they taught.
Not my opinion. It is the context of the passage which you clearly do not understand. Again, why would Yeshua say to obey EVERYTHING that they taught if some of it was not correct Torah and then go on to recite the 7 woes and call them hypocrites?? Also, in Hebrew Matthew (Shem tov) it says this: "Upon the seat of Moses the Pharisees and Sages sit, and now, all which HE (Moses) will say unto you, keep and do; but THEIR ordinances and deeds do not do, because THEY say and do not.”

ומעשיהם אל תעשו שהם אומרים והם אינם עושים

In this passage, it is clear to recognize that the plural ישבו (they sat) referred to the Pharisees and the sages, while the singular יאמר referred only to Moshe.
 
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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)

"...they tried all the more to kill him [Jesus]; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God"
J 5:18 (NIV)

The carrying of the mat was not necessary for the healing or walking.

According to the Jesus of the Bible, the Pharisees who were accusing Jesus of Sin, were "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men" and were "Transgressing God's commandments by their own religious tradition". You can find this biblical Truth in Matt. 15, Mark 7, Matt. 23. and elsewhere, should you be interested. Would it not be prudent then, to consider that perhaps the Pharisees sabbath traditions, and God's Sabbath commandment, were not the same?

Would it not be True then, that Jesus didn't disobey or dishonor His Father, who HE says is the One True God, by Breaking God's Sabbath, rather, HE refused to walk in or abide by the Pharisees Sabbath Tradition?

So I would ask a couple of questions to see what religious traditions you may have adopted concerning the Jeremiah verse.

In your religion, was it against God's Sabbath Law for a woman to carry her child out of her house, into the Gates of Jerusalem on God's Sabbath?

The Food God said to prepare on Friday for the Sabbath, in your religion, was it against God's Sabbath Law for a Mother to carry a bag of prepared food for her children into the Gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath?

So then, in your religion, was it against God's Sabbath for a crippled or sick man to be carried into the Gates of Jerusalem on a bed?

And the last question, in your religion if a man was crippled for years laying on a bed in Jerusalem, once healed was he required by God's Sabbath Commandment to leave the very bed he was carried in on?

So then, is it possible that Jesus didn't break even the Least of His Father Commandments, and teach others to do the same?

Matt. 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Wouldn't the popular religious philosophy that Jesus Broke His Father's Sabbath Commandment, and taught the healed man to do the same, make Jesus the same as the Pharisees?

No my friend, although "many", who come in Christ's Name, might teach others that Jesus taught men to break His Father's Commandments, TAKE Heed of these "many" as Jesus instructs. HE is not a Hypocrite, He doesn't say one thing and do another and do this world's religious sects imply.

I look forward to your answers, as this is a great discussion that I believe will expose another of the many deceptions the Christ "of the Bible" warns this world's men about.
 
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trophy33

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According to the Jesus of the Bible, the Pharisees who were accusing Jesus of Sin, were "Teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men" and were "Transgressing God's commandments by their own religious tradition". You can find this biblical Truth in Matt. 15, Mark 7, Matt. 23. and elsewhere, should you be interested. Would it not be prudent then, to consider that perhaps the Pharisees sabbath traditions, and God's Sabbath commandment, were not the same?

Would it not be True then, that Jesus didn't disobey or dishonor His Father, who HE says is the One True God, by Breaking God's Sabbath, rather, HE refused to walk in or abide by the Pharisees Sabbath Tradition?

So I would ask a couple of questions to see what religious traditions you may have adopted concerning the Jeremiah verse.

In your religion, was it against God's Sabbath Law for a woman to carry her child out of her house, into the Gates of Jerusalem on God's Sabbath?

The Food God said to prepare on Friday for the Sabbath, in your religion, was it against God's Sabbath Law for a Mother to carry a bag of prepared food for her children into the Gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath?

So then, in your religion, was it against God's Sabbath for a crippled or sick man to be carried into the Gates of Jerusalem on a bed?

And the last question, in your religion if a man was crippled for years laying on a bed in Jerusalem, once healed was he required by God's Sabbath Commandment to leave the very bed he was carried in on?

So then, is it possible that Jesus didn't break even the Least of His Father Commandments, and teach others to do the same?

Matt. 5: 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Wouldn't the popular religious philosophy that Jesus Broke His Father's Sabbath Commandment, and taught the healed man to do the same, make Jesus the same as the Pharisees?

No my friend, although "many", who come in Christ's Name, might teach others that Jesus taught men to break His Father's Commandments, TAKE Heed of these "many" as Jesus instructs. HE is not a Hypocrite, He doesn't say one thing and do another and do this world's religious sects imply.

I look forward to your answers, as this is a great discussion that I believe will expose another of the many deceptions the Christ "of the Bible" warns this world's men about.
I cannot find any answer to my question in your post - why did Jesus instruct the healed man to carry his mat on sabbath?
 
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d taylor

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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)

"...they tried all the more to kill him [Jesus]; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God"
J 5:18 (NIV)

The carrying of the mat was not necessary for the healing or walking.

The Tanakh's Law did not forbid carrying ones bed on the Sabbath, but the rules added to the law by the religious leaders had established many extra rules to the Law, that God had not given. The religious leaders also forbid healing on the Sabbath, and that was what really irritated the religious leaders.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus,and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The teaching that Jesus broke the Sabbath or instructed others to break the Sabbath is basically crucifying Him all over again and if Jesus sinned even once or instructed others to sin He could not have been our Savior and all humanity is lost. Although Jesus was tempted just like us, He was without sin. Heb 4:15 1 Peter 2:21-22

Contrary to this teachings, Jesus never sinned, He never broke the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, He broke the sabbath of the pharisees which is not the same as they added many rules to God's commandments, but yet didn't keep the commandments of God the way God instructed but instead relied on their rules which Jesus condemned. Who does the Pharisees represent in scripture. Certainly not Jesus or God and we are either with God or against Him, there is no middle ground.

This is what Jesus said in His own Words about the accusations of the Pharisees.


John 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 
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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)

"...they tried all the more to kill him [Jesus]; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God"
J 5:18 (NIV)

The carrying of the mat was not necessary for the healing or walking.

Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Arise, and take up your mat, and walk'?


to Jesus there was no differeance between them ....
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Arise, and take up your mat, and walk'?


to Jesus there was no differeance between them ....
The latter showed faith by the person Jesus healed to get up after being crippled for so long.
 
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daq

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This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors.
Jer 17:21 (NIV)

Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.
But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

J 5:8-11 (NIV)

"...they tried all the more to kill him [Jesus]; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God"
J 5:18 (NIV)

The carrying of the mat was not necessary for the healing or walking.

The passage is about the calendar and the commencement of the daily Shabbat hour, which has been discussed quite a few times in various threads on this particular board, and which most seem to choose not to believe because of bias and paradigm, (their beliefs concerning the Shabbat being only the full day of the seventh day of the week).

However, also, your thread title is a well known logical fallacy know as begging the question because it assumes that the Master instructed the man to break the Shabbat when that is not what is being taught in the passage. What is being taught is that the rulers of the people were off in their estimation of the timing of the daily Shabbat hour: they were wrong, and that is why the Master says, "My Father works until just now" or "right now", as in right this very moment, (εως αρτι).

That means the Shabbat hour had not yet commenced until this exact time when the Master says this in the text, in John 5:17, and therefore they were wrong in their timing or, more likely, had insulated the Shabbat hour by adding a half hour before to insure that no one broke it, as they were wont to do with all of the commandments. In "putting a hedge about the commandment" in this manner they disallowed the legality of this healing which would have occurred during their own hedge time, likely the half hour before the actual Shabbat commenced.

John 5:25 KJV
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

That is the Shabbat hour which is taught in the opening creation account and occurs in every day of the year, on the sacred calendar day, which is seven yamim-hours in a yom-day, (while the civil calendar day is twelve hours in a day). The opening creation account is the foundational teaching, the sacred calendar day, from which the full day of the weekly Shabbat is also understood. The one does not void the other, both are taught in the opening creation account: but the sacred calendar day is the prototype or foundational principle from which the weekly Shabbat is derived. Without an understanding of the calendar such things are hidden.

Addendum:

Since no one responded to this post, I suppose I will go ahead and park the greater part of the remainder of the answer herein below, (but there is also much more study that can be done which verifies the things herein).

The matt or mattress in John 5 is almost assuredly the same type mentioned in 1 Samuel 19:13-16, (mistakenly rendered as a pillow in some translations). This mattress was more like a heavy blanket and was typically made of woven goat's hair. It could be folded up into a pillow as it is in the Samuel passage.

1 Samuel 19:13-16 YLT
13 and Michal taketh the teraphim, and layeth on the bed, and the mattress of goats' hair she hath put for his pillows, and covereth with a garment.
14 And Saul sendeth messengers to take David, and she saith, 'He is sick.'
15 And Saul sendeth the messengers to see David, saying, 'Bring him up in the bed unto me,' --to put him to death.
16 And the messengers come in, and lo, the teraphim are on the bed, and the mattress of goats' hair, for his pillows.

This mattress is called a kbiyr in the Hebrew, very similar to the Greek word krabbatos in the N/T, in general, as also in the John passage. If the matt speaks of this type then it is not difficult to imagine what happened: the healed man took up his matt by rolling it up into a roll and carried it with him because it was most likely the only possession he had apart from the clothes he wore.

In addition to these things the man had been held in his infirmity for thirty and eight years: this time span is mentioned in only one place in the scripture, and it is the time from Kadeshbarnea until the crossing of the brook Zered, until the time when all the men of war had died out from the congregation, recounted in Deuteronomy 2:14, and includes many supernal things which pertain to this passage in John 5, even a full discussion of giants, (even the bed-frame of Og the king of Bashan is mentioned if one follows the passage in detail).

In the supernal Way of the Meshiah and his Apostles this man had just come into contact with the dead, and the one who died suddenly next to him was the one who had held him in his infirmity thirty and eight years, the years of the rebellion in the desert. He was now required to undergo purification, (which is probably why the Master later finds him in the temple), and that purification was to be performed in seven yamim, and the third yom and the seventh yom the man is required to cleanse with the water of the purification. In the scared calendar day that seventh yom is the seventh hour of the sacred calendar day no matter what day of the year it is because that is the Shabbat hour in each and every day.

Not only all these things, but even everything which has come into contact with the one who is deemed unclean by the dead must either be destroyed or cleansed and purified, by fire and-or by water.

Numbers 19:11-22 KJV
11 He that toucheth the dead body [nephesh, soul] of any man shall be unclean seven days.
12 He shall purify himself with it on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean.
13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh, soul] of any man that is dead, and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him, he shall be unclean; his uncleanness is yet upon him.
14 This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.
15 And every open vessel, which hath no covering bound upon it, is unclean.
16 And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, [the dead] or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.
17 And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:
18 And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave:
19 And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even.
20 But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.
21 And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even.
22 And whatsoever the unclean person toucheth shall be unclean; and the soul that toucheth it shall be unclean until even.

The interpretation of this later includes all vessels or works made of goat's hair:

Numbers 31:19-24 KJV
19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.
21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

The cured man had essentially one possession apart from the clothes he wore: a kbiyr or krabbatos, a matt that was like a thick blanket which could also be used as a pillow or even a covering, that is, raiment, and the kbiyr or krabbatos was therefore probably made of goat's hair just as in the Samuel passage quoted above herein.

The cured man was therefore required by the Torah to purify all his raiment, including both his clothes and his matt, and that is plainly stated as necessarily to be done in the seventh yom, (Num 19:19), and this seventh yom is the Shabbat hour of the sacred calendar day which is the seven yamim of creation in each and every day of the world for as long as the earth and world endure.

The Yhudim in John 5 were wrong, even according to the Torah, for they neither saw nor perceived see the spiritual warfare that had delivered the cured man from his spiritual captor of thirty and eight years.
 
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trophy33

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The Tanakh's Law did not forbid carrying ones bed on the Sabbath, but the rules added to the law by the religious leaders had established many extra rules to the Law, that God had not given. The religious leaders also forbid healing on the Sabbath, and that was what really irritated the religious leaders.

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus,and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
The question is why did Jesus said to carry the mat on sabbath. The topic is not if their interpretation of the commandment was right or not, it was simply the accepted interpretation in their culture.
 
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trophy33

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I see that many of you simply want to discuss if it was really breaking the sabbath or not.

However, my question is why did Jesus said to the man to do what was not allowed in their society (and what was not necessary for anything related to the healing).
 
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