Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

[armothe]

Today at 05:16 PM edpobre said this in Post #99
Jesus did NOT teach that the timing of his second coming is in the first century. This is only what Preterists THINK of what the scriptures mean.
There is NO indication in the Bible that the disciples believed this. Nevertheless, whether the disciples believed that Jesus would come in the first century or not does NOT make the belief that Jesus CAME in AD 70 true.
Ed

Acts 2:14-20
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.
No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
‘In the last days it will be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams.
Even upon my slaves, both men and women,
in those days I will pour out my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy.
And I will show portents in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and smoky mist.
The sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the Lord’s great and glorious day.

Was Peter wrong by claiming that the apostles were experiencing the "last days"? Was Joel wrong?

-A

 

[drmmjr]

A question. If Jesus did return in 70AD like some are claiming, then where is New Jerusalem?

Rev 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If these events have already happened, then where is God? He says that He Himself shall dwell with men and that He shall be with them. Also, God shall wipe away all tears, and there shall be no more death, sorrow, or crying. Last time I checked, people were still dying, and crying.

If these events happened, then New Jerusalem is supposed to be here on Earth. Where is it? It shouldn't be hard to miss, just look at how large it will be:
Rev 21:16 - And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs (that's 1500 miles by our standards). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Something that is a cube 1500 miles will be a little hard to hide now won't it.

Just some thoughts.

 

[God of Love]

Today at 04:25 PM drmmjr said this in Post #102

A question. If Jesus did return in 70AD like some are claiming, then where is New Jerusalem?

Has anyone considered that Jesus DID return -- as "The Word"?

Was the NT not written between 51-100AD?

Just a thought, nothing more...

 

[armothe]

Yesterday at 09:25 PM drmmjr said this in Post #102
A question. If Jesus did return in 70AD like some are claiming, then where is New Jerusalem?
Rev 21:1 - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 - And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
If these events have already happened, then where is God? He says that He Himself shall dwell with men and that He shall be with them. Also, God shall wipe away all tears, and there shall be no more death, sorrow, or crying. Last time I checked, people were still dying, and crying.
If these events happened, then New Jerusalem is supposed to be here on Earth. Where is it? It shouldn't be hard to miss, just look at how large it will be:
Rev 21:16 - And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs (that's 1500 miles by our standards). The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
Something that is a cube 1500 miles will be a little hard to hide now won't it.
Just some thoughts.

The events described in Revelation are poetic in nature. The "New Jerusalem" is an allegory for the New Covenant God has established with mankind, made possible through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

If you start taking everything literally, well, you'll run into problems. For example, no more crying....what about tears of joy?
No more pain - how do we know when something is effecting our body in a negative way?

As far as God living amongst us.....do you deny He is? As a Christian I emphatically rejoice everyday that Christ has redeemed me by covering my sins, making God accessible to me whenever I want. God is amongst men, and we are His people. Whenever I am
forlorn, God comforts me, wipes away my tears and gives me reason to rejoice.

Praise God that Jesus returned when He said He would. He conquered sin, conquered death, put His enemies under his feet, and sealed a new covenant with man.

-A

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 07:27 PM franklin said this in Post #100

Howdy Ed, Thank you for your post and comments brother.  I don't really have that much time at this moment to go through all of your quotes in your post but I must compliment you on your great efforts in refuting my premise to a futuristic return of Christ. 

your quotes at the end of your post:

The heavens and the earth that then existed BEFORE  70  AD are still the SAME heaven and earth that we see TODAY. The heavens and the earth that NOW exist are supposed to PASS away when "the END" comes.  

Recent archaelogical findings PROVE that the earth that existed during Jesus' time is STILL the SAME earth that exists TODAY.

Why anyone would THINK that Christ CAME in 70 AD and LOSE the chance to IMMORTALITY and REIGN with Jesus, is beyond me!

My question to you is, why would anyone think that Jesus taught anything less then the fulfillment of all the prophecies during the lifetime of His contemporaries?  Why are believers today looking for a physical king and a physical kingdom just like the Jews of the first century?   Do you believe that Christ is reigning now?  Why do you continue to interpret the 1000 years as literal years?

If I lived during the time of Jesus I would have also thought that his prophecies would be fulfilled during my lifetime. And I would have thought too that the fall of Jerusalem was the end of the world. Who could have blamed me for thinking that way? The Bible had NOT been assembled and I would have had no way of knowing what the heavens and the earth are like after the second coming of Christ.

But we live at a time when we have the Word of God or the Bible to guide us in ascertaining whether something has indeed already happened or not. That's why we know for sure that Christ did NOT come back the second time in 70 AD.

TRUE believers are NOT looking for a physical king and a physically kingdom. TRUE believers are found in the KINGDOM of God's Son, in whom there is REDEMPTION through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sin (Col. 1:13-14). That KINGDOM is the CHURCH, which is his BODY  over which, he is the SUPREME Lord (Eph. 1:22-23 TEV) and HEAD (Col. 1:18).

Christ is NOT reigning right now because he is busy preparing a place in heaven for his disciples and MEDIATING for his BODY (1 Tim. 2:5) as High Priest (Heb. 4:14) and Advocate (1 John 2:1).

The 1000 years is literal because during these years, those who meet Christ on his second coming will reign with him for 1000 years while Satan is bound in the bottomless pit for the duration of this 1000 years. AFTER 1000 years, the rest of the dead will live again.

Here is a brief article from David Curtis and then I'll try to cover the rest of your post sometime this week.

How heaven and earth passed away, by David Curtis

Question: Has heaven and earth passed away? Ridiculous you say? Let us ask another question: Do you believe the Old Covenant has been done away? I dare say you will say it has. Few believers in Jesus would deny he has established his New Covenant. If you believe the Old Covenant has passed away, then you must believe "heaven and earth" has passed away! Please read the words of Jesus:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18).

Did you notice that Jesus said heaven and earth had to pass away before the law could pass?!? Yes, he really did say it; please, get your scripture right now and read it for yourself! Has the heaven and earth passed away? Well, obviously, physical heaven and earth haven't been destroyed. But read the text again will you? Jesus DID say until heaven and earth pass away the Old Law could not pass.

Our choices here are limited. If we understand the "heaven and earth" as literal, physical heaven and earth then this means the Old Law is still in effect. Simply put the argument would go like this: If heaven and earth had to pass before the Old Law could pass; and if heaven and earth refers to literal, physical heaven and earth, then, since literal, physical heaven and earth still exist, [have not passed], it must be true that the Old Law has not passed. A person could say the Law here is the Law of Jesus; but this will not work because Jesus had not yet died to confirm his New Covenant. He was living under the Old Law at the time also. The Jews standing there were not concerned with the passing of Jesus' law. They did not believe he even had one! They were concerned with the Old Law! Finally, if this is speaking about the passing of Christ's law it contradicts the verses in the New Testament that teach Jesus' word will never pass away in Matthew 24:35.

On the other hand, if we understand the "heaven and earth" as figurative language, referring not to physical creation, but to something else, it is possible that this "heaven and earth" could pass away, allowing for the passing of the Law.

We have Jesus' own words as to when all prophecy was to be fulfilled. In Luke 21:22 our Lord spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem and said "These be the days of vengeance in which all things that are written must be fulfilled." In verse 32 he emphatically said "this generation will not pass away until all things take place." Verse 33 contains Jesus' statement that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words will by no means pass away." In Luke 21:20-22. Jesus is speaking here of the destruction of Jerusalem, an event that was to occur forty years from the time that he spoke.

Luke 21 thus contains the identical elements of Matthew 5:17-18; the passing of heaven and earth, and the fulfillment of all prophecy emphatically placed within the context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD! Note the perfect correlation of Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Revelation and Luke 21. They all tell of the time when all prophecy would be fulfilled; they all identify that time as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD!

The Jewish idiom "the law and the prophets" in Matthew 5:17-18 means the totality of the Old Testament revelation. Jesus said he did not come to destroy it but fulfill it. Jesus is saying here, in Matthew 5, that the old law has to be fulfilled, every jot and every tittle has to be fulfilled, before it can pass away. If 2 Peter 3 is based upon the Old Testament prophets, and it is, and if 2 Peter 3 has not been fulfilled, then we are still under the Old Covenant law. That is quite simple. Do you believe that we are in the New Covenant? If we are then the Old Covenant must have passed away. And if the Old Covenant has passed then 2 Peter 3 has been fulfilled. Let us explore the definition of the heaven and earth. Lets start by reading 2 Peter 3. Most Christians would say that this is the end of the world as we know it, the destruction of planet earth. It sure sounds that way doesn't it? That is how I had always seen it.

One of the major areas of difficulty in understanding correctly "heaven and earth" in the New Testament is the misunderstanding of how God referred to nations by this phrase in the Old Testament. Seeing the biblical concept of "heaven and earth" in the Old Testament will help us greatly in correctly understanding its use in New Testament passages. Rather than to assume that each time we encounter the phrase, we are to immediately think of this physical universe and its elements.

The premise that the the heavens and earth that now exist have passed away FIGURATIVELY, based on the ASSUMPTION that the Old Covenant has passed is FALSE.

The Bible teaches that, just as "the world that then existed perished by flood, the heavens and the earth that now exist are RESERVED for fire UNTIL the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:6-7). The Bible describes in 2 Peter 3:10 how the heavens and the earth will pass away.

Was the flood figurative? I haven't heard anyone say that the flood  did NOT actually happen. Apostle Peter is saying that the heavens and the earth that now exist will be destroyed by fire just as the old world was destroyed by water.

The premise that Jesus CAME to FULFILL the Old Covenant is also FALSE. That's why the Old Covenant passed without the heavens and earth LITERALLY passing away.

God SENT His Son ...to REDEEM those under the law that they may receive adoption as sons (Gal. 4:4-5). But in order to REDEEM those under the law, Jesus must FULFILL the "law of God regarding sin."

The "law of God regarding sin" requires each one to die for his own sin (Deut. 24:16). Apostle Paul wrote that God made him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we may become the righteousness of God in him (2 Cor. 5:21).

How did Jesus become sin for us in order to FULFILL the law? He created in himself "one new man" from the two (Jews and Greeks) (Eph. 2:15), that he might RECONCILE them both to God in ONE BODY through the cross (Eph. 2:16).

And Christ is the HEAD of the BODY, the church...(Col. 1:18). Thus, Christ was able to DIE for the sins of his BODY thereby FULFILLING the "law of God regarding sinnners."

Jesus has fulfilled the law to the letter. Hence, the heavens and the earth that now exist can pass away as prophesied. But there is only one unfulfilled requirement that is holding it - the TRUE gospel of the kingdom has NOT been preached into all the world as a witness to all nations (Matt. 24:14).

Why is love greater than faith and hope (1 Cor. 13:13)? Because faith will become unnecessary and our hope for eternal life will be realized with the second coming of Christ. But love will last for ever and ever even in the kingdom of heaven.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 07:47 PM armothe said this in Post #101

Today at 05:16 PM edpobre said this in Post

ttp://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=662737#post662737">#99
Jesus did NOT teach that the timing of his second coming is in the first century. This is only what Preterists THINK of what the scriptures mean.
There is NO indication in the Bible that the disciples believed this. Nevertheless, whether the disciples believed that Jesus would come in the first century or not does NOT make the belief that Jesus CAME in AD 70 true.
Ed

Acts 2:14-20
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning.
No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
‘In the last days it will be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams.
Even upon my slaves, both men and women,
in those days I will pour out my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy.
And I will show portents in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood, and fire, and smoky mist.
The sun shall be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the Lord’s great and glorious day.

Was Peter wrong by claiming that the apostles were experiencing the "last days"? Was Joel wrong?

-A

Did my post say they are wrong?

I believe I wrote about Jesus NOT teaching that the timing of his second coming is in the first century. And whether  or not the disciples believed his second coming would be in the first century does NOT prove that Christ INDEED came in AD 70.

Ed




 

 

[edpobre]

Today at 02:44 AM armothe said this in Post #104

The events described in Revelation are poetic in nature. The "New Jerusalem" is an allegory for the New Covenant God has established with mankind, made possible through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

If you start taking everything literally, well, you'll run into problems. For example, no more crying....what about tears of joy?
No more pain - how do we know when something is effecting our body in a negative way?

As far as God living amongst us.....do you deny He is? As a Christian I emphatically rejoice everyday that Christ has redeemed me by covering my sins, making God accessible to me whenever I want. God is amongst men, and we are His people. Whenever I am
forlorn, God comforts me, wipes away my tears and gives me reason to rejoice.

Praise God that Jesus returned when He said He would. He conquered sin, conquered death, put His enemies under his feet, and sealed a new covenant with man.

-A

Did Jesus LITERALLY come in 70 AD? Did anyone see him coming as recorded in Matt. 24:30?

In 2 Peter 3:6-7, apostle Peter wrote that just as the old world perished by water, the heavens and earth that now exist are reserved for fire on the day of judgment.

Was the flood literal or figurative?

Rev. 21:1 says that with the new heaven and new earth, there are NO MORE seas. If Jesus came in AD 70, why do we still see seas all around us? If you say this is figurative, please explain.

The Bible says that with the coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit so that he could deceive the nations NO MORE till the 1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:2-3). If Jesus came in AD 70, why do we DAILY see lots of violence and crime on the news?

Ed

 

[franklin]

Jesus has fulfilled the law to the letter. Hence, the heavens and the earth that now exist can pass away as prophesied. But there is only one unfulfilled requirement that is holding it - the TRUE gospel of the kingdom has NOT been preached into all the world as a witness to all nations (Matt. 24:14).

Hi Ed, Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations. Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven: 

Colossians 1:5-6 (NKJV) because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 (NKJV) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations:

Romans 16:25-26 (NKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Romans 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

If I lived during the time of Jesus I would have also thought that his prophecies would be fulfilled during my lifetime.

Interesting statement here Ed!  This is like saying the inspired writers, Paul, Peter, John, James etc, didn't really know what they were writing or what they were talking about or had a clue as to what to believe!  Think about what you are saying? 

I'll get back to you other quotes later..... this is getting very interesting, as in "very"  .....

 

[franklin]

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the TRUMPET will sound, and the <B>dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE</B>, and&nbsp;<B>WE</B> (the living "IN" Christ) <B>shall be CHANGED.</B>For this <B>CORRUPTIBLE <I>must</I> put on INCORRUPTION</B>, and this <B>MORTAL <I>must</I> put on IMMORTALITY</B>."

Hello again Ed,&nbsp; Ask yourself some questions?????&nbsp; Is Pauls message physical or spiritual?&nbsp; The dead will be raised?&nbsp; The dead what?&nbsp; Do you think Paul is referring to dead physical bodies or do you think he is talking about dead as in spiritually dead?&nbsp; As for immortality, do you think Paul is telling his audience that when they physically die they will become immortal?&nbsp; If he is telling them that they will become immortal, then he is contradicting scripture because scripture does not teach that man is immortal.&nbsp; We are mortal and at death our physical bodies returns to the dust and our spirits return to God. (Eccl&nbsp;&nbsp; 12:7)&nbsp;There is nothing in scripture&nbsp;that teaches that after death there is conscious thought or that the thinking part of&nbsp;us will continue to exist.&nbsp; If you can find the scriptures, be my guest and post them for me because I haven't been able to locate them.&nbsp; I have to believe what the scripture is saying as Paul writes as he is moved and inspired by the spirit of God in that he is referring to the change that takes place in our physical bodies as the spirit of God indwells every believer in this present life and not some future time in some&nbsp;time in an afterlife that has been so traditionally taught from the imaginations of the&nbsp;theological minds of&nbsp;men.&nbsp;

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.&nbsp;But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you".&nbsp; (Romans 8:10-11)&nbsp;

If you compare Romans to 1Cor 15 I think you will see that Paul is teaching that those who have Christ and the Holy Spirit dwelling in them receive life, obviously eternal life, to their mortal bodies, through the HolySpirit. In other words, the mortal puts on immortality.&nbsp; Also, Romans 6:4-12 is&nbsp;very clear that the mortal putting on immortality is something happening within the vehicle of the human body.&nbsp; All this I believe is how Paul ties together the other passages you quoted, the traditional&nbsp;popular "rapture" passages as well are all related in that&nbsp;they are&nbsp;inspired words that are to interpreted&nbsp;as spiritual and not physical.&nbsp; Notice vs 12:

"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ".&nbsp;

The "old man," is the first body, the mortal body, "the body of sin," and the "new man" is the one that is in the image of God (Colossians 3:10).

I think the&nbsp;next item I want to tackle that you quoted&nbsp;has to do with the thousand years.&nbsp; Give me&nbsp;some time while&nbsp;I pour myself a cup of hot tea.&nbsp;Thanks for posting your comments brother Ed.


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[Ben johnson]

There is nothing in scripture that teaches that after death there is conscious thought or that the thinking part of us will continue to exist.

"And he broke the fifth seal, and I saw beneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice saying, "Oh Lord, Hoy and True, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the Earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe, and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their felow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also..." Rev6:9-11

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 07:24 PM franklin said this in Post #108

Jesus has fulfilled the law to the letter. Hence, the heavens and the earth that now exist can pass away as prophesied. But there is only one unfulfilled requirement that is holding it - the TRUE gospel of the kingdom has NOT been preached into all the world as a witness to all nations (Matt. 24:14).

Hi&nbsp;Ed,&nbsp;Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations. Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:&nbsp;

Colossians 1:5-6 (NKJV) because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Colossians 1:23 (NKJV) if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations:

Romans 16:25-26 (NKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;

We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Romans 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

Apparently, the world as apostle Paul knew it is NOT the SAME world as Jesus MEANT it. What Jesus SAID is PLAIN and simple: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in ALL the world as a witness to ALL the nations, then the END will come" (Matt. 24:14).

We know that the "world that then existed PERISHED, being&nbsp;FLOODED with water. But the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire UNTIL the DAY of Judgment and PERDITION of ungodly men" (1 Peter 3:6-7).

If the DAY of Judgment had COME and with it, the second coming of Christ,&nbsp; why are the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are still&nbsp; existing? You don't believe Noah's FLOOD is all figurative, do you?

And if apostle Paul's writings were intended solely for the Christians of his generation, what is the importance of these letters&nbsp;for us today?

If I lived during the time of Jesus I would have also thought that his prophecies would be fulfilled during my lifetime.

Interesting statement here Ed!&nbsp; This is like saying the inspired writers, Paul, Peter, John, James etc, didn't really know what they were writing or what they were talking about or had a clue as to what to believe!&nbsp; Think about what you are saying?

Wasn't that what you were trying to say? You&nbsp; were saying the apostles believed that Jesus was coming in the first century, didn't you? And of course, at the time Jesus was talking to them, they really would have thought that Jesus would come during their lifetime.

But because we live in the 21st century and we have the Bible to base our beliefs on, we now know that the Bible is NOT only for the first-century Christians but for all people of the world UNTIL the second coming of Christ.

And because of what the Bible teaches, we NOW know for sure that the END of the world has NOT come.

Ed

&nbsp;

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 03:21 AM franklin said this in Post #109

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the TRUMPET will sound, and the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and&nbsp;WE (the living "IN" Christ) shall be CHANGED. For this CORRUPTIBLE must put on INCORRUPTION, and this MORTAL must put on IMMORTALITY."&nbsp;

&nbsp;

Hello again Ed,&nbsp; Ask yourself some questions?????&nbsp; Is Pauls message physical or spiritual?&nbsp; The dead will be raised?&nbsp; The dead what?&nbsp; Do you think Paul is referring to dead physical bodies or do you think he is talking about dead as in spiritually dead?&nbsp; As for immortality, do you think Paul is telling his audience that when they physically die they will become immortal?

If you&nbsp;back up to 1 Cor. 15:51, apostle Paul is talking about NOT&nbsp;all going "sleep"&nbsp;or die at the LAST trumpet. The "LAST trumpet" signals the Second Coming of Christ&nbsp;on Judgment Day (Matt. 24:31; 1 Thes. 4:16).

In 1 Cor. 15:52-53, apostle Paul describes the condition of those who will meet Christ at his&nbsp;Second Coming.&nbsp;The DEAD "IN" Christ will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE and&nbsp;those who are&nbsp;alive and remain will be CHANGED at the twinkling of an eye from being CORRUPTIBLE to INCORRUPTIBLE or from being MORTAL to IMMORTAL (1 Thes 4:16-17).

Ed

 

[franklin]

Apparently, the world as apostle Paul knew it is NOT the SAME world as Jesus MEANT it. What Jesus SAID is PLAIN and simple: "And this gospel of the kingdom <B>will be preached in ALL the world</B> as a witness to ALL the nations, <B>then the END will come</B>" (Matt. 24:14).&nbsp;

Hi Ed, if Paul and Jesus were talking about two different worlds they would be contradicting each other.&nbsp; When Paul referred to the end, the end of what?&nbsp; I always believed God was going to destroy planet earth too.&nbsp; Why do you think God wants to destroy the earth that He created?

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen".&nbsp;(<SPAN class=PassageHeader>Ephesians 3:21)</SPAN>

We know that the "world that then existed PERISHED, being&nbsp;FLOODED with water. But the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire UNTIL the DAY of Judgment and PERDITION of ungodly men" (1 Peter 3:6-7).

This could turn into a totally different discussion from your quote here Ed, however, I'll just touch briefly here, what makes you think that the entire globe was engolfed in water?&nbsp; It seems like everytime we see the word "world" we right away interpret it as the entire planet.&nbsp; Obviously the world didn't perish anyway, only the people God brought judgement on in the region or locality of the world at that time.&nbsp; Planet earth was still in tact now wasn't it?&nbsp; Of course it was and still is.&nbsp; As far as trying to compare Gen with Peter, that is not using proper hermeneutics.&nbsp; Your basing your end time belief system on&nbsp;opinions.

If the DAY of Judgment had COME and with it, the second coming of Christ,&nbsp; why are the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are still&nbsp; existing? You don't believe Noah's FLOOD is all figurative, do you?

Good questions Ed, they (heavens/earth)&nbsp;are still physically existing because&nbsp;God never intended or never does intend on destroying his creation now or ever in any time future.&nbsp; And yes, Noah's flood was a literal flood but I don't believe it was global.&nbsp; Also the scripture doesn't speak of a judgement day sometime thousands of years future, if you search the scriptures you will see more references to "Day of the Lord" .....

And if apostle Paul's writings were intended solely for the Christians of his generation, what is the importance of these letters&nbsp;for us today?

Good question Ed, and I thought just like you when I was first going through my paridigm shift a while back.&nbsp; Paul tells us that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (II Tim 43:16,17) This means that not only the prophetic Scripture is profitable to these ends, but all other Scripture, as well. So the question that is usually asked when I share with others that all the prophecies have been fulfilled is, "If all prophecy has been fulfilled, then isn't the bible irrelevent? I would have to answer it this way, the bible is very relevent for us today because it was written "for" us and not "to" us.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Wasn't that what you were trying to say? You&nbsp; were saying the apostles believed that Jesus was coming in the first century, didn't you? And of course, at the time Jesus was talking to them, they really would have thought that Jesus would come during their lifetime.

Let's look at some parallel passages where Jesus is speaking to His twelve diciples who were standing in front of Jesus:

Matthew 16:27-28, "For the Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 8:38 - 9:1, "…when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels....there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. " Luke 9:26-27, "... when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels…there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. " See also: Lk 9:26-27

Jesus said that some of his disciples, who were standing right there in front of him, would not physically die by the time He came with his angels to reward every man according to his works (Revelation 22:12). John was one of these men who lived to see it...as you can see by the following verse...

John 21:22-23, "...If I (Jesus) desire him (John) to abide till I come, what is that to thee?"

John was one of the twelve apostles who abided on earth well after 70AD. Therefore, John did abide until Christ came in 70AD, just like Jesus desired him to!

But because we live in the 21st century and we have the Bible to base our beliefs on, we now know that the Bible is NOT only for the first-century Christians but for all people of the world UNTIL the second coming of Christ.

Ed I&nbsp;couldn't agree with you more&nbsp;that the Bible is "for" all generations, however, it was also written to the first century believers who heard the message first.&nbsp; There are many things that occured in the bible thousands of years before us, does that mean they must be repeated again?&nbsp; The Ten Commandments were given to&nbsp;Moses, does that mean&nbsp;they have to be re-written again?&nbsp; Christ was crucified, does that mean He has to be crucified a second time again.&nbsp; It's all biblical history.&nbsp; Just like the fulfillment of all the prophecies.

And because of what the Bible teaches, we NOW know for sure that the END of the world has NOT come.

I would have to say to you Ed, that because of what the bible teaches we should believer without a shadow of a doubt that God is not going to destroy the earth that he created.&nbsp; I asked you this question before I think, why would God want to physically&nbsp;destroy planet earth?&nbsp;

&nbsp;



&nbsp;&nbsp;

&nbsp;

 

[armothe]

20th February 2003 at 05:09 AM edpobre said this in Post #106
Did my post say they are wrong?

I believe I wrote about Jesus NOT teaching that the timing of his second coming is in the first century. And whether&nbsp; or not the disciples believed&nbsp;his second coming&nbsp;would be in the first century does NOT prove that Christ INDEED came in AD 70.

Ed&nbsp;
[/B]

And I believe you didn't answer my question.

Was Peter wrong to believe the "Last Days" had fallen upon the disciples.

-A

 

[armothe]

20th February 2003 at 05:29 AM edpobre said this in Post #107 Did Jesus&nbsp;LITERALLY come in&nbsp;70 AD? Did anyone see him coming as recorded in Matt. 24:30?

Perhaps yes, perhaps no. All the people who may have witnessed this event are dead.

20th February 2003 at 05:29 AM edpobre said this in Post #107
In 2 Peter 3:6-7, apostle Peter wrote that just as the old world perished by water, the heavens and earth that now exist are reserved for fire on the day of judgment.
Was the flood literal or figurative?

That's just it. The OT&nbsp;events are literal in nature whereas the NT events are spiritual in nature.
Physical destruction of physical world by physical flood verses spiritual destruction of spiritual "world" by spiritual fire.
Physical temple in Jerusalem verses spiritual temple in spiritual Jerusalem.
Physical law verses spiritual law.

20th February 2003 at 05:29 AM edpobre said this in Post #107
Rev. 21:1 says that with the new heaven and new earth, there are NO MORE seas. If Jesus came in AD 70, why do we still see seas all around us? If you say this is figurative, please explain.

The Seas are a reference to the Gentile nation.
In the OT&nbsp;"Heavens and Earth" are reference to the Hebrews/Jews as well as their preferred status with God. (Isa 1) The Heavens and the Earth are seperated from the seas, just as Jews were seperated from the Gentiles.

The New Heavens and Earth will not have any seas. This means there will no longer be any seperation between Jews and Gentiles. The New Heavens and Earth is representative of the new covenant God has made with ALL His people.

20th February 2003 at 05:29 AM edpobre said this in Post #107 The Bible says that with the coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the bottomless pit so that he could deceive the nations NO MORE till the&nbsp;1000 years is finished (Rev. 20:2-3). If Jesus came in AD 70, why do we DAILY see lots of violence and crime on the news?
Ed

This really comes down to who you think is responsible for Sin.
Evil existing in this world came about by MAN, not Satan.
Satan once decieveed, but man is the being that actually commits sin.
Satan does not need to deceive in order for man to sin. Satan being bound, or even destroyed doesn't mean there will be an end to sin.
The problem lies within man's nature, to do both good and evil.

If eraticating sin was a matter of destroying Satan, then why didn't God just destroy Satan, instead of sending Christ to die on the cross for mans sins?

Fact is, to destroy sin, would mean to destroy mankind. I'm thankful God found a better solution than deciding to destroy the world (physically) again.

-A

 

[edpobre]

23rd February 2003 at 05:59 PM franklin said this in Post #113

Apparently, the world as apostle Paul knew it is NOT the SAME world as Jesus MEANT it. What Jesus SAID is PLAIN and simple: "And this gospel of the kingdom &lt;B&gt;will be preached in ALL the world&lt;/B&gt; as a witness to ALL the nations, &lt;B&gt;then the END will come&lt;/B&gt;" (Matt. 24:14).&nbsp;

Hi Ed, if Paul and Jesus were talking about two different worlds they would be contradicting each other.&nbsp; When Paul referred to the end, the end of what?&nbsp; I always believed God was going to destroy planet earth too.&nbsp; Why do you think God wants to destroy the earth that He created?

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen".&nbsp;(<SPAN class=PassageHeader>Ephesians 3:21)</SPAN>

Paul and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul was referring to a world that he knew existed during his time. Jesus was referring to a world that he knew will exist in the future.

Paul was referring to the end of the present world whatever his concept of world was and the "world without end" is the world that is to replace the old world.

We can only know what's in the mind of God by what He says. And the Bible is God's word. Apostle Peter wrote that the heavens and the earth that NOW exist is RESERVED for FIRE&nbsp;until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7). This must be the reason why God wants to destroiy the earth that He created.

We know that the "world that then existed PERISHED, being&nbsp;FLOODED with water. But the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are kept in store by the same word, RESERVED for fire UNTIL the DAY of Judgment and PERDITION of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:6-7).

This could turn into a totally different discussion from your quote here Ed, however, I'll just touch briefly here, what makes you think that the entire globe was engolfed in water?&nbsp; It seems like everytime we see the word "world" we right away interpret it as the entire planet.&nbsp; Obviously the world didn't perish anyway, only the people God brought judgement on in the region or locality of the world at that time.&nbsp; Planet earth was still in tact now wasn't it?&nbsp; Of course it was and still is.&nbsp; As far as trying to compare Gen with Peter, that is not using proper hermeneutics.&nbsp; Your basing your end time belief system on&nbsp;opinions.

Obviously, "world" means the "earth and the works that are in it" (2 Peter 3:10). Thus, while the "earth that THEN existed and the works that are in it" were FLOODED (2 Peter 3:6), the "earth that NOW exists is RESERVED for fire until the day of judgmen and perdition of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7) and the "earth that NOW exists the works that are in it will be BURNED up" (2 Peter 3:10).

That ONLY 8 people SURVIVED the flood is PROOF that the whole earth was FLOODED.

If the DAY of Judgment had COME and with it, the second coming of Christ,&nbsp; why are the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are still&nbsp; existing? You don't believe Noah's FLOOD is all figurative, do you?

Good questions Ed, they (heavens/earth)&nbsp;are still physically existing because&nbsp;God never intended or never does intend on destroying his creation now or ever in any time future.&nbsp; And yes, Noah's flood was a literal flood but I don't believe it was global.&nbsp; Also the scripture doesn't speak of a judgement day sometime thousands of years future, if you search the scriptures you will see more references to "Day of the Lord" .....

Noah's LITERAL flood was GLOBAL because ONLY 8 people survived the flood. Thus, there is NO reason to doubt that the passing away of the heavens and the earth will ALSO be LITERAL and global.

Of course the scripture does not&nbsp;say that judgment day is thousand of years in the future. And you are correct in saying that there is more references to "Day of the Lord." But the scripture does not say either that judgment day is within the next decade or next 100 years, does it?

And if apostle Paul's writings were intended solely for the Christians of his generation, what is the importance of these letters&nbsp;for us today?

Good question Ed, and I thought just like you when I was first going through my paridigm shift a while back.&nbsp; Paul tells us that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (II Tim 43:16,17) This means that not only the prophetic Scripture is profitable to these ends, but all other Scripture, as well. So the question that is usually asked when I share with others that all the prophecies have been fulfilled is, "If all prophecy has been fulfilled, then isn't the bible irrelevent? I would have to answer it this way, the bible is very relevent for us today because it was written "for" us and not "to" us.&nbsp;

If ALL prophecy has been fulfilled in ad 70, HOW is the Bible relevant for us today BECAUSE it was written "for" us?

For example, apostle Paul wrote that&nbsp;AT the&nbsp;SOUND of the last trumpet, we shall NOT all sleep but we shall ALL be CHANGED&nbsp;from CORRUPTIBLE to INCORRUPTIBLE, from MORTAL to IMMORTAL (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

What good are these verses for you and me and all others who were born AFTER the last trumpet sounded in 70 AD?

Wasn't that what you were trying to say? You&nbsp; were saying the apostles believed that Jesus was coming in the first century, didn't you? And of course, at the time Jesus was talking to them, they really would have thought that Jesus would come during their lifetime.

&nbsp;&nbsp;

Let's look at some parallel passages where Jesus is speaking to His twelve diciples who were standing in front of Jesus:

Matthew 16:27-28, "For the Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 8:38 - 9:1, "…when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels....there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. " Luke 9:26-27, "... when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels…there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. " See also: Lk 9:26-27

Jesus said that some of his disciples, who were standing right there in front of him, would not physically die by the time He came with his angels to reward every man according to his works (Revelation 22:12). John was one of these men who lived to see it...as you can see by the following verse...

John 21:22-23, "...If I (Jesus) desire him (John) to abide till I come, what is that to thee?"

John was one of the twelve apostles who abided on earth well after 70AD. Therefore, John did abide until Christ came in 70AD, just like Jesus desired him to!

The verses you quoted&nbsp;refer to&nbsp;men still standing having not tasted death until they have&nbsp;SEEN the "kingdom of God" coming in power. The verses do NOT say, "until they have seen the Son of Man coming in the clouds" (cf. Matt. 24:30).&nbsp; The "kingdom of God" referred to here is the Church of Christ that came in power during the apostles' time.

John 21:22-23 is merely showing us how the words of Jesus could be TWISTED to mean something else.

But because we live in the 21st century and we have the Bible to base our beliefs on, we now know that the Bible is NOT only for the first-century Christians but for all people of the world UNTIL the second coming of Christ.

Ed I&nbsp;couldn't agree with you more&nbsp;that the Bible is "for" all generations, however, it was also written to the first century believers who heard the message first.&nbsp; There are many things that occured in the bible thousands of years before us, does that mean they must be repeated again?&nbsp; The Ten Commandments were given to&nbsp;Moses, does that mean&nbsp;they have to be re-written again?&nbsp; Christ was crucified, does that mean He has to be crucified a second time again.&nbsp; It's all biblical history.&nbsp; Just like the fulfillment of all the prophecies.

The Old Testament&nbsp;is a historical record of what actually happened to the ancient nation of God. The New Testament contains a historical record of what actually happened during the time of Jesus and his disciples, instructions on how to be RECONCILED to God and how to maintain that relationship until the second coming of Christ, prophecies on what will happen to the church, signs of Christ's second coming and a picture of what will happen on judgment day and beyond.&nbsp;

If Christ HAD come in AD 70 and ALL prophecies have been FULFILLED, why else do we need FAITH? What else are we HOPING for?

And because of what the Bible teaches, we NOW know for sure that the END of the world has NOT come.

I would have to say to you Ed, that because of what the bible teaches we should believer without a shadow of a doubt that God is not going to destroy the earth that he created.&nbsp; I asked you this question before I think, why would God want to physically&nbsp;destroy planet earth?

&nbsp;&nbsp;

As I said, we can only know what is in God's mind by what He says. The Bible says that the heavens and the earth that NOW exist are RESERVED&nbsp; for fire UNTIL the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7). On the day of the Lord, the heavens will pass away, and the earth and all the works that are in it will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10).

Noah's flood was LITERAL. Thus, there is NO doubt in my mind that the burning up of the earth and all the works that are in it is LITERAL as well.

Ed

 

[Justme]

Hi,

The preached all over bit...................

Matthew 10

Matthew 10 is an account of Jesus sending out His apostles to preach the gospel. He names them so there is no double meaning here.

23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Apparently they did a good job and got all finished up.

Colossians

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

I hate to tell you this, but that puts it in THAT generation.

Justme

 

[parousia70]

Yesterday at 11:01 PM edpobre said this in Post #116

Paul and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul was referring to a world that he knew existed during his time. Jesus was referring to a world that he knew will exist in the future.

Please show where the Bible teaches this&nbsp;

the "world without end" is the world that is to replace the old world.

Actually if you care to examine the text, "World without end" encompasses "all ages", and not only the "age to come" as you would have us believe.&nbsp;

Noah's LITERAL flood was GLOBAL because ONLY 8 people survived the flood.

Yes but the earth was not destroyed in the flood, yet Peter says it was.

How do you reconcile that?

If ALL prophecy has been fulfilled in ad 70, HOW is the Bible relevant for us today BECAUSE it was written "for" us?

For example, apostle Paul wrote that&nbsp;AT the&nbsp;SOUND of the last trumpet, we shall NOT all sleep but we shall ALL be CHANGED&nbsp;from CORRUPTIBLE to INCORRUPTIBLE, from MORTAL to IMMORTAL (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

What good are these verses for you and me and all others who were born AFTER the last trumpet sounded in 70 AD?

Ed, by that Logic, you must&nbsp;also claim that the verses that warned of the Flood are of no value to us today. That they can&nbsp;be avoided, not studied, even thrown out of our Bibles. Like you say, if it is fulfilled, what good is it for you and me?

Is this what you really believe?

&nbsp;

If Christ HAD come in AD 70 and ALL prophecies have been FULFILLED, why else do we need FAITH? What else are we HOPING for?

More faulty logic Ed.

IF you "hope" to get a Bike for your Birthday, and when your birthday comes and you get the Bike, are you mad because whoever gave you the Bike took away your "Hope" for the Bike?

It appears you'd rather only "hope" for the thing than actually "have" the thing.&nbsp;


Why is that?
&nbsp;

P70

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 02:25 AM Justme said this in Post #117

Hi,

The preached all over bit...................

Matthew 10

Matthew 10 is an account of Jesus sending out His apostles to preach the gospel. He names them so there is no double meaning here.

23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

Apparently they did a good job and got all finished up.

Colossians

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

I hate to tell you this, but that puts it in THAT generation.

Justme

How old are you Justme? Did you hear&nbsp;the gospel in the generation of apostle Paul?&nbsp;

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Yesterday at 02:28 AM parousia70 said this in Post #118

Paul and Jesus do not contradict each other. Paul was referring to a world that he knew existed during his time. Jesus was referring to a world that he knew will exist in the future.

Please show where the Bible teaches this&nbsp;

Matthew 24:5-8 is Jesus' prophecy about the last days. Verse 5 is about the innumerable number&nbsp; of evangelists and televangelists that will sprout towards the end of the world. This did NOT happen during the time of Paul. Verses 6 talks about news of war and rumors of war. In the world that Paul knew, there was no way that "news of wwar and rumors of war" coul have had happened. Verse 7 talks of nations and kingdoms rising against each other. Jesus could NOT hav e been referring to Paul's time because Rome was the ONLY kingdom that ruled that part of Paul's world.

the "world without end" is the world that is to replace the old world.

Actually if you care to examine the text, "World without end" encompasses "all ages", and not only the "age to come" as you would have us believe.&nbsp;

The world that NOW exists is PRESERVED for fire UNTIL the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men (2 Peter 3:7). Hence, the "world WITHOUT end" is the NEW heavens and NEW earth that will replace the old.

Noah's LITERAL flood was GLOBAL because ONLY 8 people survived the flood.

Yes but the earth was not destroyed in the flood, yet Peter says it was.

How do you reconcile that?

Have you ever tried burning food in a skillet? The food is&nbsp; burned by the skillet remains intact, right? Well, that's probably what will happen to the earth that NOW exists. Apostle Peter says "the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and athe works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

I don't believe any LIVING&nbsp;human being will survive the day of judgment unless they are "caught up together with the RISEN dead "IN" Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus in the air" (1 Thes. 4:16-17).

If ALL prophecy has been fulfilled in ad 70, HOW is the Bible relevant for us today BECAUSE it was written "for" us?

For example, apostle Paul wrote that&nbsp;AT the&nbsp;SOUND of the last trumpet, we shall NOT all sleep but we shall ALL be CHANGED&nbsp;from CORRUPTIBLE to INCORRUPTIBLE, from MORTAL to IMMORTAL (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

What good are these verses for you and me and all others who were born AFTER the last trumpet sounded in 70 AD?

Ed, by that Logic, you must&nbsp;also claim that the verses that warned of the Flood are of no value to us today. That they can&nbsp;be avoided, not studied, even thrown out of our Bibles. Like you say, if it is fulfilled, what good is it for you and me?

Is this what you really believe?

Isn't that what I am asking you Parousia70?

What are the lessons of the flood good for if the last trumpet HAS already sounded and my CHANCE to become INCORRUPTIBLE and IMMORTAL has PASSED me by because I was born AFTER 70 AD?

Is there a verse which says that I still have HOPE for that?

If Christ HAD come in AD 70 and ALL prophecies have been FULFILLED, why else do we need FAITH? What else are we HOPING for?&nbsp;

More faulty logic Ed.

IF you "hope" to get a Bike for your Birthday, and when your birthday comes and you get the Bike, are you mad because whoever gave you the Bike took away your "Hope" for the Bike?

It appears you'd rather only "hope" for the thing than actually "have" the thing.&nbsp;

Why is that?

Are you telling me that you and I are ALREADY changed from being corruptible to INCORRUPTIBLE or from being mortal to being IMMORTAL (1 Cor. 15:51-53)?

Appstle Paul wrote: If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are ABOVE, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things ABOVE, not on things on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life APPEARS, then you also will APPEAR with him in glory" (Col. 3:1-4).

Tell me Parousia70, what good is&nbsp; this verse for me if Christ HAS already APPEARED? What would I be HOPING for?

Ed