Did Jesus promise to return in the 1st cent.?

[OldShepherd]

posted by P70
WOW! Finally! That was like pulling teeth to get you to take a stand on this! I'm glad you have hopped off the fence

So, let me get this straight, you demand from me scriptural record of "Jesus riding a cloud" in 70AD, but accept for yourself that Jesus prophesy of Jerusalems destruction was fulfilled in 70AD by the words of Josephus? The Bible records no such fulfillment yet you accept it is fulfilled???

Before I address your post in more depth, How is that not a double standard?

Do you make a habit of demanding less from yourself than you do from others?

You are still misquoting me and misrepresenting what I say. One last time you earlier rejected my suggestion to review the history of the early church fathers, whereupon I said then prove whatever you want to prove from scriptures. If you say something was fulfilled but reject early church history, then prove it somehow.

”you demand from me scriptural record of "Jesus riding a cloud" in 70AD, but accept for yourself that Jesus prophesy of Jerusalem’s destruction was fulfilled in 70AD by the words of Josephus?” How many deliberate misrepresentations in this sentence? I didn’t say anything about prophecy in mentioning Josephus. I said Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, and Josephus documented that Jerusalem was in fact destroyed and suffered many of the things Jesus prophesied. And I pointed out that it was an actual, literal event, while you are claiming that Jesus coming in the clouds was figurative, allegorical, etc., although both events are prophesied at the same time, virtually in the same sentence.

And I think if you will read my posts you will find that the “scriptural record” I am requesting AND not receiving is any verse or verses which have essentially the same language as Matthew 24, in which it can be clearly, unequivocally, shown to have been fulfilled not literally but by foreign armies.

I’m still waiting for you, or anyone here, to post a scripture in which God says He will come in the clouds, and He says He WILL be seen, TWICE, BUT He does not literally come AND the scriptures clearly state that the fulfillment was, in fact, an invasion or attack by a foreign army. Not only have you not produced such scriptural evidence you haven’t posted one single verse in which God says He will be seen in the clouds. Jesus clearly said that He would be SEEN, twice!

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

And I think if you will read my posts you will find that the “scriptural record” I am requesting AND not receiving is any verse or verses which have essentially the same language as Matthew 24, in which it can be clearly, unequivocally, shown to have been fulfilled not literally but by foreign armies

Well, there is no "army" mentioned in Matthew 24, so I can't compare an example from that text, but I found chapter 13 in Isaiah to be helpful:

Isaiah 13:4 "Jehovah of hosts is mustering the host for the battle. They come from a far country, from the uttermost part of heaven, even Jehovah, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land."

Here we see God gathering an army from both "a far country" and the "uttermost part of heaven".

Later in the chapter we know that Babylon is destroyed by the Medes: Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them."

It seems pretty clear that God's judgement upon Babylon was done so using a physical human army - the Medes.

Here are some examples to help compare the language and images between both passages:

Isaiah 13:8  "pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman in labor"
Matthew 24:8 "all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs"

Isaiah 13:10 "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light;"
Matthew 24:29 "..and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Isaiah 13:10 "The sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine."
Matthew 24:29 "And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light."

Isaiah 13:11  "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity"
Matthew 25:26-30 "You wicked and lazy slave!..throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 25:46 "And these (the wicked) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Isaiah 13:18 "and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."
Matthew 24:19 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days!

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of Jehovah cometh, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger; to make the land a desolation, and to destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Luke 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Isaiah 13:8 "Wail ye; for the day of Jehovah is at hand; as destruction from the Almighty shall it come. Therefore shall all hands be feeble, and every heart of man shall melt: and they shall be dismayed; they shall look in amazement one at another; their faces shall be faces of flame."
Luke 21:26 People will faint from fear and foreboding of what is coming upon the world

Isaiah 13:15 "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is taken shall fall by the sword."
Luke 21:23 "they will fall by the edge of the sword"

Isaiah 13:7 "Therefore shall all hands be feeble, and every heart of man shall melt:"
Isaiah 19:1 "The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it."
Ezekiel 21:7 (prophecy regarding destruction of Jerusalem) "I have set the threatening sword against all their gates, that their heart may melt, and their stumblings be multiplied: ah! it is made as lightning, it is pointed for slaughter."

Hope this may help

-A

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by cougan

Matt. 24:36 Is the "Transition Text" of Matt. 24 

coug,

If Matt 24 stood alone as the only record of Jesus "Olivet" discourse, you might have a case for your partial preterism. However, the paralell accounts render any such "Transision text" impossible.

Luke 17 places events at the destruction of Jerualem that Matt 24 ascribes to the "End of the world",(verse 37 and beyond) and likewise places events at the "End of the world" that Matt 24 ascribes to the destruction of Jerusalem(Verse 35 and before).

Check out THIS  link for a detailed chart.

Either Luke Was wrong about the order of events, or Matt was, or they both are correct in that they all refer to events that culminate with destruction of Jerusalem, which came at the "end of the age", at the parousia of Christ.

Luke really does a nice Job at cementing these events to eachother, and I believe him.

Luke 21:20-22

When you see Jerusalem encompassed with armies, know that her desolation is near, then let those in Judea flee to the mountins, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If all things written were not fulfilled in the days when the aopstles saw Jerusalem encompassed with Armies, (JUST AS JESUS SAID THEY WOULD BE) then we are of "all men most misrable", for we serve a master who was either a liar or a lunatic., or both.

Join me in declaring Jesus Christ as the one true prophet, only Son of God, who returned on time, within that "Generation", faithful to His promise to do so.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
I said Jesus prophesied the destruction of Jerusalem, and Josephus documented that Jerusalem was in fact destroyed and suffered many of the things Jesus prophesied.

Instead of such vague references, can you be specific? Exactly which prophesies do you believe were fulfilled in 70AD? Chapter & Verse if you can.

As for me, I agree with Jesus that "All things written" were to be fulfilled at the "days of vengeance" that culimnated in Jerusalems desolation. (Luke 21:20-22)

And I pointed out that it was an actual, literal event, while you are claiming that Jesus coming in the clouds was figurative, allegorical, etc., although both events are prophesied at the same time, virtually in the same sentence.

And both prophesied to come to pass together.

 

[cougan]

Parousia70 I will get back to you on your luke arguement. By the way you did not introduce anything new to me that I havent already exporled myself. Since there are all kinds of preterist out their I want you to answer a few questions so I can see which kind you are. By the way you can call me a partial preterist if you will but I just consisder myself 100% christian and not part of a theolgy.

When did the kingdom begin? Pentacost or 70AD
Do you believe that all prophecy was fullfilled by 70AD?

I will leave it at that.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by parousia70
Instead of such vague references, can you be specific? Exactly which prophesies do you believe were fulfilled in 70AD? Chapter & Verse if you can.

You know, it would really help if you would actually read my posts, before responding to them. I quoted the specific scriptures and listed the specific prophecies I was referring to, 1-6, and followed that with records of the early church which support me. (Click Here!)

As for me, I agree with Jesus that "All things written" were to be fulfilled at the "days of vengeance" that culimnated in Jerusalems desolation. (Luke 21:20-22)

Maybe you are misreading "all things written" and I believe I have quoted several early church fathers who wrote that the "day of vengeance" was yet future. Did the entire early church get it wrong?

 

[armothe]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Maybe you are misreading "all things written" and I believe I have quoted several early church fathers who wrote that the "day of vengeance" was yet future. Did the entire early church get it wrong?

The early church fathers were not any more enlightened about the scriptures than we are today. 

Both Augustine and Victorinous believed there to be ONE Antichrist and that Elijah the prophet was yet to return (in the future).
Iraeneus and Polycarp believed that a 3rd temple would be rebuilt.

However, nowhere in the Bible states a 3rd temple being built; John stated there are *many* antichrists; and Christ himself said that Elijah had already come.

We even note that the early church father's were split between a pre-millenial and post-millenial reign.

Just as I'm sure I'm not 100% correct on every biblical doctrine, we can be sure neither were any of the early church fathers.

But to me it seems- that us living today, have more resources to understand the Bible more clearly than a bunch of philosophers with limited handwritten copies of fragments of the Bible.

-A

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by cougan


When did the kingdom begin? Pentacost or 70AD

Are those my only 2 choices? what about Christ's Baptism? was the Kingdom of God not present at that point?

Regardless, 70AD was the consumation of the Kingdom, not the birth of it.

Do you believe that all prophecy was fullfilled by 70AD?

No.
All eschatology was fulfilled by 70AD. Bible prophesy continues to unfold and be fulfilled on a daily basis on into the future.

Next?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
Maybe you are misreading "all things written" and I believe I have quoted several early church fathers who wrote that the "day of vengeance" was yet future. Did the entire early church get it wrong?

I am far more comfortable believing the ECF's were in error, than I am believing Christ and His apostles were in error.

I noticed you didn't include Luke 21 in your "proof texts" for Jesus predicting Jerusalems AD70 destruction.
Why don't you offer your alternative rendering of "all things written"?

As far as your other texts, you still can't prove with scripture 70AD fulfilled any of that, however, proclaiming it's fulfillment is correct because the desolation of Jerusalem and the Temple is something "Every eye can see", even to this day

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by cougan
By the way you can call me a partial preterist if you will but I just consisder myself 100% christian and not part of a theolgy.

Adhering to a specific eschatology does not render one "Not Christian", or less than "100%" Christian.

In fact, that is the one thing preterists, partial or full, along with futurists, have in common.

We're all 100% Christian! AMEN!

Choosing the "Correct" eschatology is not criteria for salvation.

 

[Ben johnson]

Choosing the "Correct" eschatology is not criteria for salvation.

What is the criteria for salvation?

How is one saved?

 

[GW]

--ON MATTHEW 24:30-31--


Adam Clarke's Commentary (1715-1832)
(Three term President of Wesleyan Conference - British Methodist)

Verse 30. [Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man]
The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By thv ghv, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.

Verse 31. [He shall send his angels]
touv aggelouv, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.

[With a great sound of a trumpet] Or, a loud-sounding trumpet- the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.

[Shall gather together his elect] The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, chap. viii. 11,12, and Luke xiii. 28,29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.



JOHN LIGHTFOOT'S COMMENTARY: (c.1602-1675)
(English scholar partially responsible for formulating the Westminster Confession)

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world" (Lightfoot, vol. 2, p. 320)

"This generation shall not pass, &c. Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
What is the criteria for salvation?

How is one saved?

Excellent question Ben, and one better suited for the "Questions about Christianity" section located HERE.

Ahhh...but I see you are a moderator, so you should already know the apporpraite section for such a question.....

And it appears you are a Christian as well, so you must already know the answer to your question.

Was it rhetorical?

 

[GW]

Originally posted by OldShepherd
The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians [ca. 98 AD]

He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.

Jesus Christ: to his Holy Apostles on the Time of His Return to them and the Signs They Would See Come to Pass

Matthew 24:33-34
"So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

OS:
The late date, for the writing of Revelation, by John, ca. 96 AD, has been argued against because it mentions Judaizers, which according to Preter. sources, “would be ridiculous after the temple was destroyed..” Yet, here Ignatius warns against Judaizers, in two of his letters, 98 AD and later.

It was the Jewish-led persecution of the Church around the empire which ceased at AD 70 (not rabbinical Judaism/Judaising). The persecution of the early Christians under the opposition of apostate Israel was still a major concern, a fact that fits the political situation prior to Israel's destruction, but not after. The event of Revelation 2:9-10 was foretold by Christ himself to His apostles:

--COMPARE THIS--

Revelation 2:9-10
"I know thy tribulation...and the blasphemy of them that say they are Jews, and they art not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer: behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison that ye may be tried"

--TO THIS--

Luke 21:12,16,20,28
"they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name's sake...But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death....But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand. ... when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh"

--AND THIS--

Matthew 10:17
"for they will deliver you up to councils, and in theirs synagogues they will scourge you"

--AND THIS--

Matthew 23:34-36
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you PROPHETS and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."


And indeed it was in the destruction of the city that killed Jesus and his apostles that the blood of the apostles and prophets was finally avenged by Heaven as Matthew 23:34-36 predicted...

Revelation 18:20
"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and APOSTLES AND PROPHETS, because God has pronounced judgment FOR YOU AGAINST HER."

OS:

The First Apology Of Justin [110-165 AD]

"God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there(2) until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation"

Paul the Apostle: On the Delaying of the Consummation

Hebrews 10:37
"for yet a very very little while, and He who is coming will come, and will not delay"


Jesus Christ: to his Holy Apostles on the Time of His Return to them and the Signs They Would See Come to Pass

Matthew 24:33-34
"So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

OS:

Irenaeus Against Heresies [120-202 Ad]

and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one"

Jesus Christ: to his Holy Apostles on the Time of His Return to them and the Signs They Would See Come to Pass

Matthew 24:33-34
"So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

 

[cougan]

Originally posted by parousia70
Are those my only 2 choices? what about Christ's Baptism? was the Kingdom of God not present at that point?

Regardless, 70AD was the consumation of the Kingdom, not the birth of it.




No.
All eschatology was fulfilled by 70AD. Bible prophesy continues to unfold and be fulfilled on a daily basis on into the future.

Next?

The kingdom and the chruch are the same thing.  So you would say that the kindom was completed at 70AD? Would this also mean that Christ did not have full power until 70AD? or that he was not sitting on his thrown until 70AD?

I want to know Paur. how do you pray. Please give a short example please.

Did you not quote the following verse.

Luke 21:22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Maybe I misread something did you not say that all prophecy was fullfilled according to this verse? Where in this verse do you see the fullfillment of the end times? What other prophesy are being fullfilled today? Would'nt you think that this above verse is simply saying that those things that were written about the destruction of Jerselum were fulfilled and not all end time prophecy.

Just look at this verse.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These <I>are </I>the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and <I>in </I>the prophets, and <I>in </I>the psalms, concerning me.

Here Jesus is specifically saying that those things written about him were fullfilled about his death burial and resurection.

Do you belive that we are in the new age that is the new heaven and earth?

Do you belive that there is not going to be a future final judgement but insteaded when we die we either go to heaven or hell because the finally judgement occured at 70AD?

One last question is sin physical death or spiritual death?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by cougan
The kingdom and the chruch are the same thing.&nbsp; So you would say that the kindom was completed at 70AD? Would this also mean that Christ did not have full power until 70AD? or that he was not sitting on his thrown until 70AD?[/b

Christ was raised By God onto His throne at the ascention.(Acts 2:30-31)&nbsp;Christ&nbsp;was given&nbsp;"All power" in heaven and earth prior to&nbsp;His ascention.(Matt 28:18)

I want to know Paur. how do you pray. Please give a short example please.

On my knees, with head bowed, confessing with my tongue that Jesus is Lord.

Isn't that how you do it?

Maybe I misread something did you not say that all prophecy was fullfilled according to this verse? Where in this verse do you see the fullfillment of the end times? What other prophesy are being fullfilled today?

Isaiah 9:7a

Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end.

This prophesy has no consumation. It is being fulfilled today and It will always and forever be in a state of continual, ongoing fulfillment. There will be no end to the increase of Christ's government and peace.

Do you belive that we are in the new age that is the new heaven and earth?

Yes&nbsp;

Do you belive that there is not going to be a future final judgement but insteaded when we die we either go to heaven or hell because the finally judgement occured at 70AD?

It is appointed for men once to die and after that the Judgement.(Hebrews 9:27)

One last question is sin physical death or spiritual death?

One last question? I somehow doubt it.......but ok...

Sin is a state of being. we are Born "in Sin". Those who die outside of the saving grace of Christ die "in sin" and forever suffer "in sin".

At no point will those who die "in sin" ever be apart from or in any way free from "sin". They remain "in Sin" forever, therefore sin exists forever. Unless of course you are a universalist or annihilationist.

Are you either one?

&nbsp;

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by armothe
The early&nbsp;church fathers were not any more enlightened&nbsp;about the scriptures than we are today.&nbsp;

The immediate followers of the apostles, some of whom were even alive when the Lord was, would certainly have known IF the "Day of the Lord" or "lord's Day of Vengeance" had occurred only a few years before. And while there is some difference in the writings of the ECF, NONE of them mention or associate the "Day of the Lord", etc. with the destruction of Jerusalem.

Both Augustine and Victorinous believed there&nbsp;to be ONE Antichrist and that Elijah the prophet was yet to return (in the future).

Irrelevant I was pretty much confining my references to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century fathers.

Iraeneus and Polycarp believed that a 3rd temple would be rebuilt.

Polycarp was taught by John the apostle. Are you implying that John was wrong?

However, nowhere in the Bible states a 3rd temple being built; John stated there are *many* antichrists; and Christ himself said that Elijah had already come.

John and "antiChrists", irrelevant. Christ's reference to Elijah are irrelevant to the point I was stating.

We even note that the early church father's were split between a pre-millenial and post-millenial reign.

Irrelevant! But just for grins name your sources! Which fathers, which writings, and which years?

Just as I'm sure I'm not 100% correct on every biblical doctrine, we can be sure neither were any of the early church fathers.

Irrelevant smokescreen. Go back and read my point. IF the "Day of the Lord"/"Lord's Day of Vengeance" occurred in 70 AD, why is there absolutely NO record of it in the early church? NONE! Rather whenever it is mentioned it is always future. You cited Polycarp he was John's disciples. Do you think your Biblical doctrine is more correct than theirs?

But to me it seems- that us living today, have more resources to understand the Bible more clearly than a bunch of philosophers with limited handwritten copies of fragments of the Bible.

I really couldn't care less what seems to you. How is it that you think we have more resources than John and Paul's disciples? Who are these "bunch of philosphers". Are you referring to the first cent. Christians, many of whom were brutallly tortured and murdered for their faith? Ignatius, John's disciple, for instant. "copies of fragments", indeed. How is it then, if all they had were fragments that you have a complete Bible in your hand? Might want to learn a few facts about the Bible and the early church. Scholars state that most of the N.T. can be reconstructed from the quotes and references in the ECF alone. I'm interested in truth NOT the undocumented, unverified, happy hoohah your gurus put out.

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by GW
Jesus Christ: to his Holy Apostles on the Time of His Return to them and the Signs They Would See Come to Pass[/b]

Matthew 24:33-34
"So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. "Truly I say TO YOU, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

An example of shutting your eyes and blindly throwing irrelevant verses at a question. I addressed these verses before. You have ignored most of my posts. Posted previously;

Now that leaves us with these prophecies which have not been actually, literally fulfilled, and for which there is no O.T. precedent, and the text does not state or imply, to interpret them as spiritual, figurative, allegorical, metaphorical, etc. And note, these passages, unlike Micah 4, clearly state, twice, that the Son of Man would be seen!

1. as the lightning comes out of the east, and shines even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man.
2. then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
3. all the tribes of the earth [shall] mourn. [not just Rome and Israel]
4. [all the tribes of the earth] shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
5. [the Son of man] shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
6. [the angels] shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It was the Jewish-led persecution of the Church around the empire which ceased at AD 70 (not rabbinical Judaism/Judaising). The persecution of the early Christians under the opposition of apostate Israel was still a major concern, a fact that fits the political situation prior to Israel's destruction, but not after. The event of Revelation 2:9-10 was foretold by Christ himself to His apostles:

Irrelevant to my point. The late date for Revelation, ca. 96 AD, is rejected by you guys, because John refers to Judaizers, which according to your sources "would be impossible after the temple was destroyed." It is NOT, in fact, impossible because the source I quoted twice referred to Juadizers AFTER 98 AD.
*SNIP* Irrelevant.

Paul the Apostle: On the Delaying of the Consummation. . .

Irrelevant! MY sources were written after 98 AD.

Jesus Christ: to his Holy Apostles on the Time of His Return to them and the Signs They Would See Come to Pass

See list of six prophecies above. IF you are going to have a discussion with me then DISCUSS, don't just blindly throw scripture verses at me. I have posted a great deal of information which is being totally ignored.

 

[cougan]

Originally posted by parousia70
Christ was raised By God onto His throne at the ascention.(Acts 2:30-31)&nbsp;Christ&nbsp;was given&nbsp;"All power" in heaven and earth prior to&nbsp;His ascention.(Matt 28:18)

You answered part of my question. Are you saying that AD70 was the completion of the kingdom? Is Jesus still reigning on his thrown today?

On my knees, with head bowed, confessing with my tongue that Jesus is Lord.

Isn't that how you do it?

In whose name do you pray. for instance I might pray Father please forgive me of my sins in Jesus name amen.

Did you not quote the following verse.

Luke 21:22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.



Isaiah 9:7a

Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end.

This prophesy has no consumation. It is being fulfilled today and It will always and forever be in a state of continual, ongoing fulfillment. There will be no end to the increase of Christ's government and peace.

I am still trying to see which kind of preterist you are. Most that I have ran across say that ALL prophecy was fullfilled by 70AD.

Yes&nbsp;

One last question? I somehow doubt it.......but ok...

Sin is a state of being. we are Born "in Sin". Those who die outside of the saving grace of Christ die "in sin" and forever suffer "in sin".

At no point will those who die "in sin" ever be apart form "sin" they remain in Sin forever, therefore sin exists forever. Unless you are a universalist or annihilationist.

Are you?

Revelation 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God <I>is </I>with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them <I>and be </I>their God.

4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."

if we are in the new heaven and new earth then we can not sin because there is no more death nor sorrow nor crying. Last time I checked all these things are still happening.

Luke 20:35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

If your view holds to the rest I have delt with the age mentioned here is the one we are in right now according to your view. We are in our spiritually resurected bodies which did not occur until 70 AD. Therefore if this is your view we can not die anymore nor are we to marry anymore.

It is appointed for men once to die and after that the Judgement.(Hebrews 9:27)

acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of <I>the </I>dead, both of <I>the </I>just and <I>the </I>unjust.

When did this happen

1cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed --

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal <I>must </I>put on immortality.

When did this happen

Romans 14:11 For it is written, <I>As </I>I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

When did this happen


1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive <I>and </I>remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead <B>in </B>Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive <I>and </I>remain shall be caught up together with them <B>in </B>the clouds to <B>meet </B>the Lord <B>in </B>the <B>air.</B> And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

When did this happen

Mat 25:31 " When the Son of Man comes <B>in </B>His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides <I>his </I>sheep from the goats.

33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:ff

46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

If this already happend there is no need to try and teach or&nbsp;save anyone because according to verse 46 at that time all everyone&nbsp;was either sent to everlasting punishment or to eternal life in heaven.

Matthew 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 11:22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

I think you would have a difficult time proveing that Sodom and Gommorah was at the destruction of Jeruusleme. Further more best my memory serves me Tyre was not destroyed until some time after the destruction of Jeuruslem. The judgement here could not be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem.

I am curious do you partake of the Lords Supper? If you do why do you do it?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye proclaim the Lord's death till he come.

&nbsp;




&nbsp;

 

[Ben johnson]

Awesome post, Cougan!