Did Jesus have a brother???

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nyj

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Originally posted by quizzler
But without proof, both the speculation that she is a virgin for life and the speculation that she was married to Joseph and consumated their marriage can neither be found wrong, whether those brothers of Jesus are Mary's or not.

Using the Bible alone, I would agree with this statement. It is ambiguous at best, and both sides feel that they can, through thorough exegesis, prove their position. So, the question that remains though is... if it really IS ambiguous (and I won't argue with you here), why do some people get their undies in such a wad over it when someone else takes a stand?

THAT, my friend, is what perplexes me so.
 
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Originally posted by nyj
Using the Bible alone, I would agree with this statement. It is ambiguous at best, and both sides feel that they can, through thorough exegesis, prove their position. So, the question that remains though is... if it really IS ambiguous (and I won't argue with you here), why do some people get their undies in such a wad over it when someone else takes a stand?

THAT, my friend, is what perplexes me so.

:eek: ....unwadding my underwear....

Becuase usually both parties don't come to an agreement as easily as we did. ;)
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by quizzler
:eek: ....unwadding my underwear....

Becuase usually both parties don't come to an agreement as easily as we did. ;)

Actually quizzler, I wasn't even thinking about you when I wrote that. Sorry if you thought it was directed at you. I was thinking more along the lines of people who accuse Catholics of Mariolatry and things of that nature whenever they hear Catholics speaking about her Perpetual Virginity.

Now... if you really do think that, I have a crowbar you can borrow :D
 
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Extirpated Wildlife

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Originally posted by VOW
I guess the question to you, Quizzler is this:

How do YOU define "Tradition"?


Peace,
~VOW

Well Tradition, as i understand in Catholic terms, is the Holy Writings. tradition (lower case t) to me would have more to do with word of mouth customs that have become a part of the landscape of a group of people. Believing Mary as being a virgin her whole life would fall under tradition, since there is no proof (nor does it disprove) in the Holy Writings that she never consumated here marraige.
 
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VOW

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Rather than rumor or word of mouth, Quizzler, Mary's history, or rather the history of Joseph's family is found written down. (we need to flag down Wolseley to tell us exactly where)

But, you can also find "clues" to this tradition in Scripture. When Jesus was dying on the Cross, one thing He did was to summon both His mother and the Disciple John. In very explicit words, He turned His mother over to John. Now, in Catholic teaching, the non-specific wording of Jesus: "Woman, behold your son," we have the Tradition that at that moment Mary became the mother of us all.

But aside from that, the action of Jesus was quite remarkable. The Man was close to death, and yet He was concerned over the care of His mother. Don't you think that if Jesus had younger brothers and sisters, He would not have been so worried about who would watch over Mary? The Jews are very diligent with familly responsibility. Had there been siblings, Jesus would NOT have severed their familly ties to their own mother in order to relinquish her care to a non-relative.

By that single action, Scripture is telling us a few things: Joseph is dead. Were he still alive, Mary would be under the care of her husband. And Mary has no other children.

Typically, the Protestant belief is that James is the brother of Jesus. James is nowhere to be found, though. At the foot of the Cross, Jesus turns His mother's care over to John.

Something to think about.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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ZooMom

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:(  Hi, I'm new to this Polemic Universe and I've been impressed with the engaging dialogue that goes on here.  However, I must digress regarding your statement that the New Testament was divinely inspired in Hebrew.

     Archaeological circles have always maintained that the New Testament was divinely inspired in Greek.  The idea that it wasn't, only cropped up relatively recently (by cult-like movements) and is not accepted by Academia. 

      By the time of Jesus' Ministry the world spoke Greek like the world speaks English today (thus, it only makes sense that the New Testament was written in Greek).  

       The most important thing to remember here, is that the New Testament was inspired in the middle of forging The Early Church.  Now, it wouldn't make sense to start a Universal Church by using "a relatively dead language", would it?  Quite the contrary, it makes perfect sense that every book in the Old Testament was inspired in Greek.  But if you need more evidence, here it is: 1)The New Testament was written by people who spoke Greek.  2)Paul's Letters were written to people who spoke Greek.  And 3)The recipients of Paul's Letters (The Epistles) were individuals who did not speak or read Hebrew.

    Any seminary will give you this information.  If you want a comprehensive explanation for free, see sacrednamemovements.com.  :)
 
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Preachers12

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Here is a good article, complete with Scripture citations, which explains who the bretheren of the Lord were. The link to the article can be found on page one, the second post.

Isshinwhat, Peace be with you.

I doubt that many will study in detail that post, but in hopes that you will continue to share such postings, I wanted you to know that I did.  It took some time, but it was well worth it.  It makes a very strong case for Jesus not having siblings, either through Mary or Joseph.  Thanks for sharing it.

Just as an aside to the other points so far brought up, I wanted to add one thought.  Mary and Joseph were very devout Jews.  The Jews revered things which were sacred or holy (ie. the Ark of the Covenant).  Joseph, through the visitation of an angel and most certainly, though not noted in Scripture, through conversations with Mary, knew Who it was that was in her womb and how the child came to be there.  By God having placed Jesus in her womb, her womb would be considered sacred.  Joseph would not have dared to desecrate Mary's womb after that.  It would have been tantamount to sacrilege.

Keep in mind too that we aren't talking about run of the mill people here.  We're talking about Saints! 

God Bless and stay safe.
 
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um..here is a point i like making..mary was a jew, under the customs of the house of david, for her to not have children when capable would be agaisnt the customs they have..look it up, what scripture says she was a virgin the rest of her life? i am curious of the origin of certain catholic believes..like the whole assumption thing..where did y'all come up with that one?
 
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dignitized

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Why is it so important to prove that Mary had other children? HOW does this affect or effect my salvation? If she did have other children does that make Christ LESS GOD? Does it imply that His siblings would be "more" than other people?

Are the people seeking to prove that Mary had other children aware that the Greek tradition is that Joseph had children by a previous marriage?

Are the people seeking to prove that Mary had other children aware that Medieval monarchs such as the Hapsburgs claimed blood lineage from Christ as proof of the divine right of Kings?

Personally, I say that even if she did have other Children God is capable of keeping her in the state of her highest grace - the Perpetually Virgin Mother of the One True God, Jesus Christ. :)
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by rev_prodeji
um..here is a point i like making..

Would've been better had it been a good point, but what can ya do?

Originally posted by rev_prodeji
mary was a jew, under the customs of the house of david, for her to not have children when capable would be agaisnt the customs they have..

Have you ever read Numbers 30? I doubt you have.

Originally posted by rev_prodeji
look it up, what scripture says she was a virgin the rest of her life? i am curious of the origin of certain catholic believes..like the whole assumption thing..where did y'all come up with that one?

Mary conceived a child by the Holy Spirit. The word, in the Jewish sense, used to describe this union is the same one that is used to describe a marriage. Mary was married to the Holy Spirit, she conceived and then gave birth to the Son of God. What makes you think that 1)she would then go and have sexual relations with someone else and 2)Joseph, knowing that Mary carried the Messiah in her womb would wish to do anything except protect her and her Child from there on out?
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Br. Max
Why is it so important to prove that Mary had other children? HOW does this affect or effect my salvation?

For Catholics/Orthodox it is an extremely important issue because if it ever could be proven that she did have other children then these two faiths, which claim to be divinely inspired on this issue, were wrong.

I don't think I need to explain to you what would happen to Catholicism (or Orthodoxy) if it were truely proven to be in error.
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Br. Max
Why is it so important to prove that Mary had other children? HOW does this affect or effect my salvation? If she did have other children does that make Christ LESS GOD? Does it imply that His siblings would be "more" than other people?

People oppose it because it's Catholic doctrine (never mind that other non-Catholic Christian groups teach this; in some Protestants' minds there is only Catholic or Bible-Believing Protestant). There is no useful theology deriving from the belief that Mary had other children -- the only purpose in contesting this issue is to prove the Catholic church wrong. Therefore, it is a favorite target of anti-Catholics.

-Chris
 
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