Did Jesus die on a cross or a stake?

[bloodbought09]

The Word was God and still is God. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Even the KJV says that the Word, the Son of God, Jesus Christ is God.

 

[brixken7]

"Being saved requires some action in order to be saved, "Look unto me.[God]." And everybody knows that not everybody looks unto God."
-- Der Alter
.....................

Of course not everyone "looks unto God" in this life. In fact, most people on this earth have never even HEARD of Him! But all of that will change in the Great White Throne judgment:

"And so all Israel shall be saved"
(Romans 11:26)!

As you said, "it requires some action in order to be saved."
But all of that "action" -- as you call it -- is provided by God, "lest any man should boast."

Salvation is a matter...

[FONT=&quot]...of God giving us faith. (Ephesians 2:8)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]...of God giving us righteousness. (Isaiah 54:17; Romans 5:17; Philippians 3:9)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God granting us repentance. (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God drawing us to Christ. (John 6:44)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God granting us belief in Christ. (Acts 13:48;18:27; Philippians 1:29)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God sealing us with His spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God putting us in His church. (Acts 2:47)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God working in us. (Isaiah 26:12; Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 13:21)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God keeping us. (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 2:8; II Thessalonians 3:3; I Peter 1:5; Jude 24)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]...of God saving us, through His grace and mercy. (II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]

All of the essentials of salvation are a matter of God's works --- not ours!
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]....................[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"For God hath concluded them all" (all of mankind) "in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (all of mankind). (Romans 11:32; Psalm 145:9)[/FONT][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[bloodbought09]

Who was Jesus talking to in Matthew 22:29? I have a feeling that you arrogantly took the word out of context to try to show that you know the scriptures, we do not know them, and that we do not know the power of God.

 

[bloodbought09]

Who is Jesus talking to in Matthew 22:29? Who are you implying that is greatly erring and does not know the power of God?

 

[bloodbought09]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth...

Jesus was talking to the Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection, nor angels.

 

[bloodbought09]

Whether Jesus were hung on a cross or a stake by the Romans, even the stake would be a pagan symbol. Jesus was flogged on what was like a stake or pole I believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Of course not everyone "looks unto God" in this life. In fact, most people on this earth have never even HEARD of Him! But all of that will change in the Great White Throne judgment:

"And so all Israel shall be saved"
(Romans 11:26)!

If we interpret Rom 11;26 as you are doing it makes Jesus a lioar.

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, rich, poor and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

As you said, "it requires some action in order to be saved."
But all of that "action" -- as you call it -- is provided by God, "lest any man should boast."

Salvation is a matter...

...of God giving us faith. (Ephesians 2:8)

...of God giving us righteousness. (Isaiah 54:17; Romans 5:17; Philippians 3:9)

...of God granting us repentance. (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25)

...of God drawing us to Christ. (John 6:44)

...of God granting us belief in Christ. (Acts 13:48;18:27; Philippians 1:29)

...of God sealing us with His spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)

...of God putting us in His church. (Acts 2:47)

...of God working in us. (Isaiah 26:12; Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 13:21)

...of God keeping us. (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 2:8; II Thessalonians 3:3; I Peter 1:5; Jude 24)

...of God saving us, through His grace and mercy. (II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)

All of the essentials of salvation are a matter of God's works --- not ours!

Wrong! All but one of your proof texts, Isaiah 54:17, Rom 5:17, Philp 3:9 Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25 Acts 13:48;18:27; Philippians 1:29 Ephesians 1:13 , Acts 2:47, Isaiah 26:12; Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 13:21,Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 2:8; II Thessalonians 3:3; I Peter 1:5; Jude 24, II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5, are out-of-context and don't say what you claim. Several are prayers what the writer wants God to do.

"For God hath concluded them all" (all of mankind) "in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (all of mankind). (Romans 11:32; Psalm 145:9)

Wrong again. The word translated "might have mercy" is an aorist, active, subjunctive. The subjunctive is the case of possibility and probability. If Paul had intended to say what you claim he would have used the future, passive, indicative case as he did e.g. in Rom 9:15

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

 

[bloodbought09]

I am really busy with work about 5-6 days a week. Sometimes I actually do not rest and work like 11 days straight. I am trying to take about every friday off but gotta give my girlfriend and future wife some time so she feels safe and secure.

Glad that you agree that Jesus is God. I do not know exactly what you as an SDA believe and only picked things at random. I do know though that you have a religious zeal and will bow to the Word of God.

 

[Rescued One]

I am really busy with work about 5-6 days a week. Sometimes I actually do not rest and work like 11 days straight. I am trying to take about every friday off but gotta give my girlfriend and future wife some time so she feels safe and secure.

Glad that you agree that Jesus is God. I do not know exactly what you as an SDA believe and only picked things at random. I do know though that you have a religious zeal and will bow to the Word of God.

Proof the official doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist churches is that the Mark of the beast is those who worship on Sunday.
"The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.)
Seventh-day Adventist's teach that Sunday worshippers ARE THE Mark Of The Beast.

Seventh-day Adventist view Ellen G. White as an inspired prophet

God bless!

 

[WitnessforGOD]

As for death resulting from being nailed up, the most popular thought is that the Messiah would die of suffocation/asphyxiation. Frederick T. Zugibe, (Adjunct Associate Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons), performed extensive experiments to test this theory: He took volunteers and crucified them (they weren't actually nailed, they were suspended by belts and straps on a sturdily constructed cross). He conducted two variations of crucifixion: One with a suppedaneum (a wooden block upon which toes would be supported, helping a victim stay supported on a cross/stauros ) and one without a suppendanuem. The results can be read here. These experiments show that a man on a cross would NOT suffocate to death, with or without a suppedaneum.

By way of comparison, Hermann Moedder, a doctor of radiology from Austria, carried out an experiment in the 1940's in Cologne, Germany, with medical students. He strapped them with their wrists directly above their heads Within minutes the students grew pale, their lung capacity and blood pressure dropped significantly, and their pulse rates increased. Moedder concluded suffocation would occur in minutes if they were not able to stand and rest. Though we don't have complete information about this experiment, it appears that a suppedaneum wasn't used, neither was a sedile (a block of wood attached to the stauros to support the buttocks slightly). This makes a difference because such devices can act as supports that the victim on the stauros could use for support in the breathing issues involved.

Now this is where the comparison of the two experiments is interesting: According to the Bible, a crucified man's legs were broken in order to hasten death (John 19:31-32). This would indicate, according to the results of the above mentioned experiments, that Jesus Christ and the two robbers were killed on singular poles.Breaking their legs would take away the usefulness of the suppedaneum's support, thus hastening their deaths by suffocation. This would not happen on a cross, according to Dr. Zugibe's experiments.*

 

[Rescued One]

But Christians of past generations observed the first day, supposing that they were keeping the Bible Sabbath, and there are in the churches of today many who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine ..." The Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 4, Page 281

Some people don't know the difference between the Sabbath Day and the Lord's Day.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev. 1:10

Psalm 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 THIS is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.”

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

I will leave those verses with you as the majority of my time at CF is on the topic of Mormonism.

 

[Mark51]

Very thorough and accurate-I believe.

 

[brixken7]

" The subjunctive is the case of possibility and probability." -- Der Alter
.........................
Let's not forget, Der Alter, that when Christ was asked, "Who can be saved" (Matthew 19:25), he replied by saying that "...with God all things are possible" (verse 26)!

 

[bloodbought09]

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath.

 

[Der Alte]

. . .
PhoebeAnn, let me know when you want to really discuss something like the Mark of the Beast from Scripture. The CnP is rather old hat, and erroneous [because it is removed from context, iow, not all that is said] in all that is stated on the matter, but only those actually looking for truth will acknowledge those things.

Isn't this more than a little hypocritical? You have several times insisted on discussing things "from scripture" as you do in this post and then the rest of your post is quoted from two non-scriptural sources?

No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast" - Maranatha, p. 211.5 (1), Evangelism, p. 234.2 (1), etc

PS, there is no such thing as The Great Controversy, Vol 4... it is The Spirit of Prophecy Vol 4... see Steve Rudd [or wherever you got that from] cannot even source properly...
... and it is improperly quoted, adding a capital "The", as if it begins the sentence, when it does not...

"... That institution which points to God as the Creator is a sign of his rightful authority over the beings he has made. The change of the Sabbath is the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Romish Church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false in place of the true Sabbath, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The change in the fourth commandment is the change pointed out in the prophecy, and the keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark. But Christians of past generations observed the first day, supposing that they were keeping the Bible Sabbath, and there are in the churches of today many who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine ..." The Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 4, Page 281

The change to Sunday worship, there has never been a change of the Sabbath, occurred about 1500 years before there was a Catholic Church with a Pope in Rome. The RCC did not exist until 1075 when Gregory VII unilaterally usurped authority over the church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Dictates of the Pope.

 

[Der Alte]

"The subjunctive is the case of possibility and probability." -- Der Alter
.........................
Let's not forget, Der Alter, that when Christ was asked, "Who can be saved"(Matthew 19:25), he replied by saying that "...with God all things are possible" (verse 26)!

That is correct, Jesus said "all things are possible", but this out-of-context proof text does not say or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what.

 

[brixken7]

That is correct, Jesus said "all things are possible", but this out-of-context proof text does not say or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what.

.................................................................

Well, it certainly does NOT imply, in any way shape or form, that God will FAIL in His objective, and out of anger and frustration, torture His creatures throughout eternity!

 

[bloodbought09]

Hell was made for the devil and his angels and anyone who decides to follow them there. The direct opposite is to make a choice to follow Jesus Christ. And that is pretty much the plumb line between going to heaven and going to hell.

 

[TheBarrd]

I don't see what difference the shape of the stauros makes at all. The point is that He died for us. He paid the redemption price to set us free from the law of sin and death.

Given that it was the Roman practice to use a cross, it is reasonable to suppose that it was a cross, but it really isn't important.
Much more important is knowing Who Jesus is.

 

[Der Alte]

.................................................................

Well, it certainly does NOT imply, in any way shape or form, that God will FAIL in His objective, and out of anger and frustration, torture His creatures throughout eternity!

And I don't use that particular verse as a proof text as some do. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, does scripture say he did it "out of anger and frustration?" Once again in case you missed it. Note this passage from Jeremiah.

God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of salvation, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
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14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Where does God say He will have pity, will spare, will have mercy and will undestroy them?

In this passage from Matthew Jesus does not say that everyone will be saved no matter what.

Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.​