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Did Jesus die on a cross or a stake?

4x4toy

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And the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the existence of hell when Jesus plainly says:

Mark 9:43-44

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


What can be said about those who add and subtract from the word of God:

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

So, be careful that your version does not add or subtract to the Word of God. It says right here that there are dire consequences.

I am going to be very blunt. Jehovah's Witnesses is a cult, is deceived and deceiving, and leading millions of people to a hell they claim they do not believe in. Why? Because they do not follow the Lord Jesus Christ but the watchtower society who lies to them and tells them what to believe and how to argue with people who know the truth, the life, and the way, Jesus Christ.

June 2000 watchtower approves blood transfusions .. They OK'd blood parts to members .. Sorry folks blood is blood .. How many JW's died previous because some magazine guy couldn't make up his mind what drinking blood meant .. It means do not drink blood .. Not refusing life saving blood as result from accident or illness ..
 
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bloodbought09

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I see some stuff about the mark of the beast. Do you believe that the mark of the beast is sunday worship and not keeping the true sabbath? Cuz sometimes I go to church on Sunday morning or Saturday night. And I find it is nice to rest from my work one day a week though the day may differ every week.

I like your hunger for the word though I do not agree with Seventh Day Adventists. Thanks for the many verses.
 
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bloodbought09

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June 2000 watchtower approves blood transfusions .. They OK'd blood parts to members .. Sorry folks blood is blood .. How many JW's died previous because some magazine guy couldn't make up his mind what drinking blood meant .. It means do not drink blood .. Not refusing life saving blood as result from accident or illness ..

If it was good that Jesus should shed His blood for us then as followers of Jesus Christ I do not think it is wrong to shed our blood for others so that they might live as well. I think it is a good way to follow Jesus just as we follow Him in being baptized as He said it was to fulfill all righteousness. It is good to save a life and not to take a life. Though JW doctrine may change, God's word is established forever.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes, hellfire will be very real, however the word "quenched" is a verb. it means to "deliberately put out", see Hebrews 11:34, &c.

No one will be able to deliberately put out the fire that will destroy utterly. The fire itself will do its work of consuming until all is consumed and destroyed into ashes and smoke.

Twisting scripture. The text does not say “No one will be able to deliberately put out the fire” or that it “will destroy utterly.” The fire in the burning bush did not destroy utterly, neither did the fire in the furnace in Daniel.

Hebrews 11:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

What is your point?

God is a consuming fire [Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 12:29], even as it is written, along with definition, as to what it means:

Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee. Deuteronomy 9:3

God defeating Israel’s enemies in this world.

As it was in the days of Lot:

And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. Genesis 19:5

And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed. Genesis 19:7

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luke 17:28
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29

More out-of-context proof texts. Will the people of Sodom and Gomorrah be resurrected to face judgment? If so, destruction here does not mean cease to exist forever,

Now see Revelation 20:

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:9

"...and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:11

Evil Gog and Magog attacking the saints being killed in this world.

Look how the word is used over and over again, in regards to the wicked:

And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. Exodus 15:7

For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from among the host, until they were consumed. Deuteronomy 2:15

Israel’s enemies being destroyed in this world but will still face the judgment.

Hellfire indeed runs out of fuel, for this heavens and this earth will be burned up, and the wicked, being raised upon this earth, will be "consumed" together, annihilated, and gone forever, no more sin.

If God decrees hellfire does not run out of fuel. That is if God is omnipotent.

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. Psalms 104:35

This is a prayer not what did or will actually happen.

And the destruction [ שֶׁבֶר] of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed. [כָּלָה] Isaiah 1:28

For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, . [כָּלָה] and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: Isaiah 29:20

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed [סוּף] together, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:17

שֵׁבֶר שֶׁבֶר sheber shêber
sheh'-ber, shay'-ber
From H7665; a fracture, figuratively ruin; specifically a solution (of a dream): - affliction, breach, breaking, broken [-footed, -handed], bruise, crashing, destruction, hurt, interpretation, vexation.

כָּלָה kâlâh kaw-law'
A primitive root; to end, whether intransitively (to cease, be finished, perish) or transitively (to complete, prepare, consume): - accomplish, cease, consume (away), determine, destroy (utterly), be (when . . . were) done, (be an) end (of), expire, (cause to) fail, faint, finish, fulfil, X fully, X have, leave (off), long, bring to pass, wholly reap, make clean riddance, spend, quite take away, waste.

סוּף sûph soof
A primitive root; to snatch away, that is, terminate: - consume, have an end, perish, X be utterly.​

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Peter 3:10

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:12

These verses say nothing about the fate of people.

Just consider all of the passages with the word "consumed" using a concordance.

I just did. The words don’t necessarily mean what you want them to.

Please re-read the definition of the verb "quench":

to deliberately put out, extinguish. Read the prophetic fulillments of where God said that the fire that would destroy and raze Jerusalem to the ground would be unquenchable. It burned until the work it had to do was over and then went out, but none put it out, none quenched it. Those gates are not still burning, neither in Jerusalem, nor the plains of Sodom & Gomorrah.

The fire will burn and burn until it has nothing more to burn, and then goes out into smoke, nothing left bu ashes, but no one will extinguish it. None of the wicked will able to deliver themselves from the power of this flame, it is the fire of God.

Here is what the Jews of Jesus’ day believed about the unquenchable fire.

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).​

And Jesus did not contradict them.

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6[ a fate worse than death]
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24[a fate worse than death]​

Notice the end of them was given in the pattern of the Sanctuary:

Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God? Psalms 77:13

Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Psalms 73:17

Says nothing about destruction.

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. Psalms 37:20

Psalm 37 Israel’s enemies killed in this world. “cut down like grass, v. 2,”“evildoesrs shall be cut off, v.9””the wicked have drawn out the sword and have bent their bow, v. 14””their sword shall enter their own heart,” v. 15, “the arms of the wicked shall be broken, v. 17. None of this means eternal destruction.

Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. Isaiah 47:14

A verse here and a verse there and anyone can prove almost anything. This says nothing about destruction.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. Isaiah 34:10

See quote from Jewish Encyclopedia above how the Jews understood these verses.

For [it is] the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isaiah 34:8

And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. Isaiah 34:9

Says nothing about destruction.

See:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11

You omitted the preceding verse.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

If those being tormented are destroyed the smoke is no longer theirs. That the torment continues for eternity is further emphasized by the phrase “they have no rest day nor night” 10[sup]100[/sup] eons times 10[sup]100[/sup] eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say “the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night

See also:

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, Revelation 18:9

And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. Revelation 18:14

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city! Revelation 18:18

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. Revelation 18:21

And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; Revelation 18:22

And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. Revelation 18:23

And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. Revelation 19:3

None of these verses say anything about people being destroyed.
We may also directly compare to Sodom and Gomorrah, which are set forth as an example of what comes in the end, total destruction, leaving nothing, but ashes and smoke rising into the sky...:

…
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

Sodom and Gomorrah [peoples and citizens, items, animals, etc] are not still burning, nor even still smoking, they are ashes and dust, and no more for they were punished with the fire of God completely destroying them.

And all the citizens, although they have been ‘destroyed,” will be resurrected to be judged.

For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up [like] the lifting up of smoke. Isaiah 9:18

Says nothing about people being destroyed.

We may also compare to the smoke upon Mt. Sinai, where God Himself descended and touched that mountain with His own feet:

And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. Exodus 19:18

Says nothing about people being destroyed.
 
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rcorlew

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Talk about a derailed thread...

The OP stilt has not provided an actual historical citation that refutes the clam that Jesus (Yeshua) became our sin payment on any other structure other then a cross. Cross crucifixion was perfected by pagans but what they intended for evil became a symbol of ultimate victory.
 
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he-man

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Twisting scripture. The text does not say “No one will be able to deliberately put out the fire” or that it “will destroy utterly.”
:doh: σβέννυμι A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish
What is your point?
σβέννυμι A prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish
More out-of-context proof texts
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. שׁחת
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. απόλλυμι apollumi to destroy fully

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. κατεσθίω to eat down, that is, devour (literally or figuratively): - devour.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. τόπος a spot (generally in space, but limited by occupancy

Exo 15:7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. אכל to eat (literally or figuratively): - X at all, burn up, consume, devour

Deu 2:15 For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from among the host, until they were consumed. destroy= המם consume, crush, destroy, 16 So it came to pass, when all the men of war were consumed and dead from among the people, consume=תּמם A primitive root; to complete,, cease, be clean [pass-] ed, consume,(come to an, make an) end, be wasted.

Psa 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. consume=תּמם A primitive root; to complete,, cease, be clean [pass-] ed, consume,(come to an, make an) end, be wasted. אי meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; to nought, past, un [-searchable], well-nigh, without,

Isa 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off:אפס A primitive root; to disappear, that is, cease: - be clean gone (at an end, brought to nought), fail.כּלה consumed= to end, whether intransitively (to cease, be finished, perish) cut off=כּרת to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication to destroy or consume

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting penal infliction: but the righteous into life eternal. κόλασις penal infliction; pay a penalty

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay a penalty of destruction forever from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
 
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brixken7

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Talk about a derailed thread...

The OP stilt has not provided an actual historical citation that refutes the clam that Jesus (Yeshua) became our sin payment on any other structure other then a cross. Cross crucifixion was perfected by pagans but what they intended for evil became a symbol of ultimate victory.
......................................

The cross is "a symbol of ultimate victory"?

For who? Don't most professing Christians believe that the vast majority of mankind will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire, suffering unimaginable torture? And if this doctrine is true, then the 'victory' could be attributed to Satan and the demons!
 
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Albion

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......................................

The cross is "a symbol of ultimate victory"?

Absolutely.

For all of us who have been given the chance at eternal life because the Lord overcame death on the cross. If it had not been for that, no one could be saved.
 
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brixken7

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Absolutely.


For all of us who have been given the chance at eternal life because the Lord overcame death on the cross. If it had not been for that, no one could be saved.
............................

So some "few" (as Christ said), will be saved (in this life).
Okay, fine. But what about those billions of people that never even heard of Christ? What happens to them?

What about those who never reached the so-called "age of accountability"?

What about the insane?

:confused:
 
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Albion

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............................

So some "few" (as Christ said), will be saved (in this life).
Okay, fine. But what about those billions of people that never even heard of Christ? What happens to them?

They are left to be judged on their own merits.

What about those who never reached the so-called "age of accountability"?
That's always been a source of uncertainty because the Bible does not give us clearcut answers on that matter. What this shows us probably is that it is something for God to handle and nothing we are supposed to arbitrate or define.

What about the insane?
The same.

It's a common human failing--if I may put it that way--to think that we must have an answer for every last thing that God does or that happens in the universe. When you think clearly about it, why should we have all the answers?

We don't have perfect knowledge when it comes to science or other matters, but we accept our limitations. When it comes to the things of God, however, we somehow suppose that we are entitled to know everything about everything that exists. It's not sensible to think that way, of course, but we humans nevertheless assume we should have all the answers...or else we're going to blame God for it! :)
 
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Der Alte

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............................

So some "few" (as Christ said), will be saved (in this life).
Okay, fine. But what about those billions of people that never even heard of Christ? What happens to them?

What about those who never reached the so-called "age of accountability"?

What about the insane?

:confused:

Be confused no longer. God does not punish people for what they don't know.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​
 
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brixken7

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They are left to be judged on their own merits.


That's always been a source of uncertainty because the Bible does not give us clearcut answers on that matter. What this shows us probably is that it is something for God to handle and nothing we are supposed to arbitrate or define.


The same.

It's a common human failing--if I may put it that way--to think that we must have an answer for every last thing that God does or that happens in the universe. When you think clearly about it, why should we have all the answers?

We don't have perfect knowledge when it comes to science or other matters, but we accept our limitations. When it comes to the things of God, however, we somehow suppose that we are entitled to know everything about everything that exists. It's not sensible to think that way, of course, but we humans nevertheless assume we should have all the answers...or else we're going to blame God for it! :)
..............................

Well, if the vast majority of mankind is going to be, as you say, "judged on their own merits" (meaning, without Christ), then there is obviously no way for them to ever be saved. By your reasoning, they are thus doomed forever to hell (or the Lake of Fire)! And if this is true, then the cross represents DEFEAT, not victory.
 
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Der Alte

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......................................

The cross is "a symbol of ultimate victory"?

For who? Don't most professing Christians believe that the vast majority of mankind will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire, suffering unimaginable torture? And if this doctrine is true, then the 'victory' could be attributed to Satan and the demons!

Those who spend an eternity in the lake of fire do so because they made a conscious decision to rebel and disobey God. "Professing Christians" are not responsible for that.
 
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brixken7

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Those who spend an eternity in the lake of fire do so because they made a conscious decision to rebel and disobey God. "Professing Christians" are not responsible for that.
.......................................

This is true, professing Christians are not responsible for the decisions that other people make. In fact, is ANYONE ultimately responsible for their decisions and actions-- even their own decisions and actions -- since the Word of God says it is not in man to direct his steps (Jeremiah 10:23) nor to understand the things of God (I Corinthians 2:14). Lacking God's holy spirit, they in fact are not totally sane; they have "madness in their heart" (Ecclesiastes 9:3)! Plainly, they're not ultimately responsible!

So the responsibility would be on God, would it not?
After all, the Bible says in I Timothy 2:4 that God "will have all men to be saved." This is God's "conscious decision." But you're saying that God cannot override the decisions that people make?

So God is NOT truly sovereign ?!

:confused:
 
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Der Alte

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.......................................

This is true, professing Christians are not responsible for the decisions that other people make. In fact, is ANYONE ultimately responsible for their decisions and actions-- even their own decisions and actions -- since the Word of God says it is not in man to direct his steps (Jeremiah 10:23) nor to understand the things of God (I Corinthians 2:14). Lacking God's holy spirit, they in fact are not totally sane; they have "madness in their heart" (Ecclesiastes 9:3)! Plainly, they're not ultimately responsible!

So the responsibility would be on God, would it not?
After all, the Bible says in I Timothy 2:4 that God "will have all men to be saved." This is God's "conscious decision." But you're saying that God cannot override the decisions that people make?

So God is NOT truly sovereign ?!

:confused:

Where did I say anything like "God cannot override the decisions that people make?" That's a pretty good trick a vs, from Jeremiah, OT, then a vs. from 1 Corinthians, NT, and finally a verse from Ecclesiastes, OT, again. Skipping around like that, a verse here and a verse there, a person can prove almost anything they want to.
 
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brixken7

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Where did I say anything like "God cannot override the decisions that people make?" That's a pretty good trick a vs, from Jeremiah, OT, then a vs. from 1 Corinthians, NT, and finally a verse from Ecclesiastes, OT, again. Skipping around like that, a verse here and a verse there, a person can prove almost anything they want to.
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"Skipping around...a verse here and a verse there..." -- Der Alter

You are questioning -- if not condemning -- a method of Bible study that is encouraged in the Bible:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"
(Isaiah 28:10).


Of course God could have made the study of His Word much easier by having the Bible written up so that various topics of the Bible were all grouped together: a chapter for the prophesies concerning Christ, a chapter concerning God's various judgments, and so on. Instead, God has had His Word written in such a way so that it's much like a giant puzzle with many, many pieces that need to be properly fitted together. Thus we need to "search the scriptures" (John 5:39), even daily (Acts 17:11), because God likes to hide things (Proverbs 25:2). And once these pieces are properly fitted together (with the mistranslations tossed aside), you end up with a really beautiful picture -- and one that makes perfect sense. They reveal a totally loving and sovereign God and Father whom we can rely on (II Corinthians 1:10; I Timothy 4:10).

And the Bible emphasizes that "we may be having NO confidence in ourselves" (above verse)! So much for our so-called 'free will'.

:clap:

Now Christ commanded us to be "perfect," just as God is (Matthew 5:48)! Obviously, this has to be God's doing, not our own.

Likewise, when God commands, "Be ye saved, all the ends of the earth" (Isaiah 45:22), we know this has to be God's doing! Thus...

"All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God" (Isaiah 52:10)!

:clap:
 
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Der Alte

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..........................

"Skipping around...a verse here and a verse there..." -- Der Alter

"Skipping around...a verse here and a verse there..." -- Der Alter

You are questioning -- if not condemning -- a method of Bible study that is encouraged in the Bible:

Wrong as usual!

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little"
(Isaiah 28:10).

Of course God could have made the study of His Word much easier by having the Bible written up so that various topics of the Bible were all grouped together: a chapter for the prophesies concerning Christ, a chapter concerning God's various judgments, and so on. Instead, God has had His Word written in such a way so that it's much like a giant puzzle with many, many pieces that need to be properly fitted together. [Nonsense! DA] Thus we need to "search the scriptures" (John 5:39), even daily (Acts 17:11), because God likes to hide things (Proverbs 25:2). [An example of using unrelated out-of-context scripture to support false doctrine. DA] And once these pieces are properly fitted together (with the mistranslations tossed aside), [How can you recognize "mistranslations" when you don't know Hebrew or Greek. והיית ממשׁשׁ בצהרים, כאשׁר ימשׁשׁ העור באפלה, ולא תצליח DA] you end up with a really beautiful picture -- and one that makes perfect sense. They reveal a totally loving and sovereign God and Father whom we can rely on (II Corinthians 1:10; I Timothy 4:10).

And the Bible emphasizes that "we may be having NO confidence in ourselves" (above verse)! So much for our so-called 'free will'.

I understand "here a little, and there a little" to mean scripture relating to the same topic in the same context not unrelated out-of-context scripture thrown together to support a false doctrine.

Now Christ commanded us to be "perfect," just as God is (Matthew 5:48)! Obviously, this has to be God's doing, not our own.

Likewise, when God commands, "Be ye saved, all the ends of the earth" (Isaiah 45:22), we know this has to be God's doing! Thus...

"All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God" (Isaiah 52:10)!

Twisting scripture! "All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God" because "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations;" but that cannot be understood as all mankind will be saved. You omitted the first part of Isaiah Isa 45:22 thus twisting it. "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." Being saved requires some action in order to be saved, "Look unto me.[God]." And everybody knows that not everybody looks unto God.

Now lets talk about free will. Does God save all mankind no matter what? Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
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14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.
 
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bloodbought09

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You do? Where? if you would like to talk about this subject, please begin a new thread in Unorthodox, and I will join you there and speak with you about it. This thread is already derailed from its original intent, and I was hoping to speak to Witness for God, about this OP [Cross or Stake] subject, from the Scripture itself.

Yet, I am not receiving a reply to study together.

You disagree with the Seventh-day Adventist movement in which way?

Please begin a new thread in Unorthodox to discuss them from the Scripture. I have no fear of any text, and love to study the Scripture [KJB, to the Law and to the Testimony], for it is upon that foundation, even Jesus Christ Himself, that the doctrine and practice of the Seventh-day Adventist movement is built and sustained.



Love KJV myself.

E. G. White prophesied the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 & 1851"Now time is almost finished, (1851) and what we have been 6 years in learning they will have to learn in months." EARLY WRITINGS p. 57

No one knows the hour but the Father in heaven and if a prophet or prophetess prophecies and it does not come to pass that prophet is not a prophet of God.

JESUS IS MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL -

'ANOTHER JESUS' 2 COR. 11:4

JAMES WHITE'S STATEMENTS ON THE TRINITY



"Spiritualizers have - disposed of or denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ ... using the old unscriptural Trinitarian creed, viz., that Jesus Christ is the eternal God, though they have not one passage to support it, while we have plain scripture testimony in abundance that he is the Son of the eternal God." (THE DAY-STAR, 1/21/1846, p. 1) (formerly WESTERN MIDNIGHT CRY)

1 John 5:7

For there are three who bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one.

1 John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


1 John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.....

Who came to be made flesh but Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is this Word and is one with the Father and the Holy Ghost. Yes! He is also the Son of God.

Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son (the Word), and of the Holy Ghost.
 
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