Did Jesus die on a cross or a stake?

[Der Alte]

. . . The Companion Bible (1922)
The Imperial Bible-Dictionary, Edited by P. Fairbairn (London, 1874), Vol. I, p. 376. [Irrelevant! DA]
. . .
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to The English and Greek New Testament, BULLINGER Pages 195, 818, 819. [Irrelevant! DA]
. . .
The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons
...
Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence.” Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–3.][Irrelevant! DA]

What part of irrelevant do you not understand? It does not matter how many so-called scholars you quote saying that σταυρός/stauros was not cross shaped. The historical evidence I presented from the Jewish encyclopedia and the early church fathers proves them all wrong! And I doubt very seriously that Vassilios Tzaferis said what you claim above. Here is a more recent article from the Biblical Archaeological review which refers to Tzaferis' 1985 article.

Scholars’ Corner: New Analysis of the Crucified Man
By Hershel Shanks

In our January/February 1985 issue, we published an article about the only remains of a crucified man to be recovered from antiquity (“Crucifixion—The Archaeological Evidence,” BAR, January/February 1985). Vassilios Tzaferis, the author of the article and the excavator of the crucified man, based much of his analysis of the victim’s position on the cross and other aspects of the method of crucifixion on the work of a medical team from Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School headed by Nico Haas, who had analyzed the crucified man’s bones. In a recent article in the Israel Exploration Journal, however, Joseph Zias, an anthropologist with the Israel Department of Antiquities, and Eliezer Sekeles of Hebrew University-Hadassah Medical School in Jerusalem question many of Haas’s conclusions concerning the bones of the crucified man.a The questions Zias and Sekeles raise affect many of the conclusions about the man’s position during crucifixion.

“New Analysis of the Crucified Man” by Hershel Shanks first appeared in Biblical Archaeology Review, November/December 1985.

Roman Crucifixion Methods Reveal the History of Crucifixion – Biblical Archaeology Society​

Drawing of the contorted crucifixion position proposed by Vassilios Tzaferis, based on the analysis of Nico Haas, which has since been challenged by Joseph Zias and Eliezer Sekeles. For full caption, see drawing from Israel Exploration Journal 35:1. Photo: Courtesy Israel Exploration Journal, Vol. 20, No. 1–2 (1970)

 

[he-man]

What part of irrelevant do you not understand?

No, the question is What part of irrelevant do you not understand?
Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

As it is, in any case, well known that the Romans very often despatched those condemned to death by affixing them to a stake or post which had no cross-bar, the question arises as to what proof we have that a cross-bar was used in the case of Jesus. Now the Greek word which in Latin versions of the New Testament is translated as ​

crux, and in English versions is rendered as cross, i.e. , the word​

stauros ​

​

, seems to have, at the beginning of our era, no more meant a cross than the English word stick means a crutch. What the ancients used to signify when they used the word stauros, can easily be seen by referring to either the Iliad or the Odyssey.1 Iliad, xxiv. 453; Odyssey, xiv. 11
​

It will there be found to clearly signify an ordinary pole or stake without any cross-bar. And it is as thus signifying a single piece of wood that the word in question is used throughout the old Greek classics. ​

2 Thuc. iv. 90; Xen. An. v. 2, 21

The word stauroō occurs, as has been said, forty-four times; and of the four words in question by far the most frequently. The meaning of this word is therefore of special importance. It is consequently most significant to find, as we do upon due investigation, that wherever it occurs in the pre-Christian classics it is used as meaning to impalisade, or stake, or affix to a pale or stake; and has reference, not to crosses, but to single pieces of wood.
​

The stauros used as an instrument of execution was (1) a small pointed pole or stake used for thrusting through the body, so as to pin the latter to the earth, or otherwise render death inevitable; (2) a similar pole or stake fixed in the ground point upwards, upon which the condemned one was forced down till incapable of escaping; (3) a much longer and stouter pole or stake fixed point upwards, upon which the victim, with his hands tied behind him, lodged in such a way that the point should enter his breast and the weight of the body cause every movement to hasten the end; and (4) a stout unpointed pole or stake set upright in the earth, from which the victim was suspended by a rope round his wrists, which were first tied behind him so that the position might become an agonising one; or to which the doomed one was bound, or, as in the case of Jesus, nailed.

Even as late as the Middle Ages, the word stauros seems to have primarily signified a straight piece of wood without a cross-bar. For the famous Greek lexicographer, Suidas, expressly states, "Stauroi; ortha xula perpegota," and both Eustathius and Hesychius affirm that it meant a straight stake or pole. "Impregnable Rock of Holy Scripture."​

​

Even the Latin word crux means a mere stake. The initial letter X, (chi) of, (Christ) was anciently used for His name,* until it was displaced by the T, the initial of the Pagan God Tammuz, about the end of cent, iv.]
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to The English
and Greek New Testament, BULLINGER Pages 195, 818, 819
​

The words "cross" and "crucify" are mistranslations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. According to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, stauros (σταυρος4716) and stauroo denotes, primarily, “an upright pale or stake.” On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb σταυροο, “to fasten to a stake or pale,” are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed “cross.” prospegnumi (προσπηγνυμι, 4362), “to fix or fasten to anything” (προσ, “to,” πεγηυμι, “to fix”), is used of the “crucifixion” of Christ, Acts 2:23.
​

For reasons of simplicity, a single, upright wooden pole (crux simplex), with no transom at all, was also often used for ancient crucifixions; the original Greek word for "cross" (stauros) is generally understood to indicate a simple upright pole or stake Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence.” Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–3.]

Though Christ was crucified, in accordance with the law, in an entirely naked condition, the earliest crucifixes reρresent him clothed with a cοlοbium, a tunic without arms, and reaching tο the feet. The support for the body has never been represented in art.
For instance, the death spoken of, death by the stauros, included transfixion by a pointed stauros or stake, as well as affixion to an unpointed stauros or stake; and the latter punishment was not always that referred to
The Non-Christian Cross: It is also probable that in most of the many cases where we have no clue as to which kind of stauros was used, the cause of the condemned one's death was transfixion by a pointed stauros.​

 

[James Is Back]

Thanks for the resources Der!

 

[Der Alte]

...

2 Thuc. iv. 90; Xen. An. v. 2, 21

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to The English
and Greek New Testament, BULLINGER Pages 195, 818, 819

Reposting the same citations after they have been proven wrong does not make them true.

Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence.” Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–3.]

Tzaferis did not say what you posted!

Link to my [post=67252859][post #92][/post] this thread. Historical evidence from the early church fathers. Every ECF who described the stauros, described it as + shaped.

Link to my [post=67252863][post #93][/post] this thread. Historical evidence from the early church fathers and the Jewish Encyclopedia documenting that the stauros in the NT was + shaped.

Any 21st century scholar who claims that stauros in the NT was not + shaped, is a liar and/or they do not know what they are talking about. Anyone claiming that the stauros in the NT was only a single stake when historical evidence from the first century proves it was + shaped, is total nonsense!

 

[bloodbought09]

Philippians 3:18-19

18. (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

19. Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

John 3:3 and 3:5-6

3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus died for my sins on a cross. The real important thing here is:

Did Jesus Christ die for your sins? Have you made Him your Lord and Savior?

 

[he-man]

Reposting the same citations after they have been proven wrong does not make them true.

Sorry, but you are wrong again, I do not just take your word for it. And No, the real question is: What part of irrelevant do you not understand?
Act_5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

As it is, in any case, well known that the Romans very often despatched those condemned to death by affixing them to a stake or post which had no cross-bar, the question arises as to what proof we have that a cross-bar was used in the case of Jesus. Now the Greek word which in Latin versions of the New Testament is translated as ​

crux, and in English versions is rendered as cross, i.e. , the word​

stauros ​

, seems to have, at the beginning of our era, no more meant a cross than the English word stick means a crutch. What the ancients used to signify when they used the word stauros, can easily be seen by referring to either the Iliad or the Odyssey.1 Iliad, xxiv. 453; Odyssey, xiv. 11
​

It will there be found to clearly signify an ordinary pole or stake without any cross-bar. And it is as thus signifying a single piece of wood that the word in question is used throughout the old Greek classics. ​

2 Thuc. iv. 90; Xen. An. v. 2, 21

The word stauroō occurs, as has been said, forty-four times; and of the four words in question by far the most frequently. The meaning of this word is therefore of special importance. It is consequently most significant to find, as we do upon due investigation, that wherever it occurs in the pre-Christian classics it is used as meaning to impalisade, or stake, or affix to a pale or stake; and has reference, not to crosses, but to single pieces of wood.
​

The stauros used as an instrument of execution was (1) a small pointed pole or stake used for thrusting through the body, so as to pin the latter to the earth, or otherwise render death inevitable; (2) a similar pole or stake fixed in the ground point upwards, upon which the condemned one was forced down till incapable of escaping; (3) a much longer and stouter pole or stake fixed point upwards, upon which the victim, with his hands tied behind him, lodged in such a way that the point should enter his breast and the weight of the body cause every movement to hasten the end; and (4) a stout unpointed pole or stake set upright in the earth, from which the victim was suspended by a rope round his wrists, which were first tied behind him so that the position might become an agonising one; or to which the doomed one was bound, or, as in the case of Jesus, nailed.

Even as late as the Middle Ages, the word stauros seems to have primarily signified a straight piece of wood without a cross-bar. For the famous Greek lexicographer, Suidas, expressly states, "Stauroi; ortha xula perpegota," and both Eustathius and Hesychius affirm that it meant a straight stake or pole. "Impregnable Rock of Holy Scripture."​

Even the Latin word crux means a mere stake. The initial letter X, (chi) of, (Christ) was anciently used for His name,* until it was displaced by the T, the initial of the Pagan God Tammuz, about the end of cent, iv.]
A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to The English
and Greek New Testament, BULLINGER Pages 195, 818, 819
​

The words "cross" and "crucify" are mistranslations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. According to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, stauros (σταυρος4716) and stauroo denotes, primarily, “an upright pale or stake.” On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb σταυροο, “to fasten to a stake or pale,” are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed “cross.” prospegnumi (προσπηγνυμι, 4362), “to fix or fasten to anything” (προσ, “to,” πεγηυμι, “to fix”), is used of the “crucifixion” of Christ, Acts 2:23.
​

For reasons of simplicity, a single, upright wooden pole (crux simplex), with no transom at all, was also often used for ancient crucifixions; the original Greek word for "cross" (stauros) is generally understood to indicate a simple upright pole or stake Tzaferis, Vassilios. “Crucifixion -- The Archaeological Evidence.” Biblical Archaeology Review 11, February, 1985: 44–3.]

Though Christ was crucified, in accordance with the law, in an entirely naked condition, the earliest crucifixes reρresent him clothed with a cοlοbium, a tunic without arms, and reaching tο the feet. The support for the body has never been represented in art.
For instance, the death spoken of, death by the stauros, included transfixion by a pointed stauros or stake, as well as affixion to an unpointed stauros or stake; and the latter punishment was not always that referred to
The Non-Christian Cross: It is also probable that in most of the many cases where we have no clue as to which kind of stauros was used, the cause of the condemned one's death was transfixion by a pointed stauros.​